hate these ads?, log in or register to hide them
Page 1377 of 1683 FirstFirst ... 3778771277132713671374137513761377137813791380138714271477 ... LastLast
Results 27,521 to 27,540 of 33650

Thread: (UK EURO WAFFLE) Limey Civil War

  1. #27521
    smuggo
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Whisper it quietly but the biggest blocker to the public sector paying exceptional wages for exceptional people is the unions.
    eh kinda. I think the idea of 'super managers' and the like is a myth though.

    Unions need a massive overhaul and a complete reevaluation as to their purpose in a modern economy, but not so that a few successful people can earn stupid amounts of money in the public sector because they were once successful somewhere else.

    The unions aren't limiting public sector resourcing budgets or creating a culture of talent bleed.
    >Implying 'super managers' are an issue.

    I know a lot of front line workers who have the ability/willingness to 'do more'/work harder within their role, but don't want to advance to a team leader/manager position, but they don't bother because they're maxed out on their grade, on the same rate as 'Percy Fuckwit' two years from retirement with a boatload of medical restrictions .

    Those that don't want to advance either leave or morph into 'Percy Fuckwit'.

    The unions refuse to talk about it because of 'muh differentials' and the idea that a supervisor should always be paid more than an underling.

  2. #27522
    Malcanis's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 12, 2011
    Posts
    14,608
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    the idea that a supervisor should always be paid more than an underling.
    This is the root of the issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  3. #27523

    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Posts
    4,677
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Whisper it quietly but the biggest blocker to the public sector paying exceptional wages for exceptional people is the unions.
    eh kinda. I think the idea of 'super managers' and the like is a myth though.

    Unions need a massive overhaul and a complete reevaluation as to their purpose in a modern economy, but not so that a few successful people can earn stupid amounts of money in the public sector because they were once successful somewhere else.

    The unions aren't limiting public sector resourcing budgets or creating a culture of talent bleed.
    >Implying 'super managers' are an issue.

    I know a lot of front line workers who have the ability/willingness to 'do more'/work harder within their role, but don't want to advance to a team leader/manager position, but they don't bother because they're maxed out on their grade, on the same rate as 'Percy Fuckwit' two years from retirement with a boatload of medical restrictions .

    Those that don't want to advance either leave or morph into 'Percy Fuckwit'.

    The unions refuse to talk about it because of 'muh differentials' and the idea that a supervisor should always be paid more than an underling.
    I don't know what it's like now, but back in the 90s, teaching pay was set up such that you'd get (I think) up to nine points on the pay scale for length of service and up to four points for being a department head. So back then it was perfectly possible for a supervisor to be paid less than an underling.

  4. #27524
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    in front of the class
    Posts
    14,401
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodj Blake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Whisper it quietly but the biggest blocker to the public sector paying exceptional wages for exceptional people is the unions.
    eh kinda. I think the idea of 'super managers' and the like is a myth though.

    Unions need a massive overhaul and a complete reevaluation as to their purpose in a modern economy, but not so that a few successful people can earn stupid amounts of money in the public sector because they were once successful somewhere else.

    The unions aren't limiting public sector resourcing budgets or creating a culture of talent bleed.
    >Implying 'super managers' are an issue.

    I know a lot of front line workers who have the ability/willingness to 'do more'/work harder within their role, but don't want to advance to a team leader/manager position, but they don't bother because they're maxed out on their grade, on the same rate as 'Percy Fuckwit' two years from retirement with a boatload of medical restrictions .

    Those that don't want to advance either leave or morph into 'Percy Fuckwit'.

    The unions refuse to talk about it because of 'muh differentials' and the idea that a supervisor should always be paid more than an underling.
    I don't know what it's like now, but back in the 90s, teaching pay was set up such that you'd get (I think) up to nine points on the pay scale for length of service and up to four points for being a department head. So back then it was perfectly possible for a supervisor to be paid less than an underling.
    Here a department head may get promoted to the next pay grade (depends on tons of stupid shit). Pay is dependent on experience, but in Berlin all teachers get a bonus to make up the difference between their current experience and the highest experience level. In my case the bonus is €12k alone.
    nevar forget

  5. #27525

    Join Date
    May 31, 2011
    Posts
    4,168
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    The public sector is incapable of attracting the talent to oversee the implementation of structures to allow outsourcing to actually work.

    It's completely priced out of the market by private companies, the resources are not available for the public sector to compete.
    Yep. I won't touch a public job because the performance bonuses are shit.
    performance bonuses is spook tbh, i'd rather have a higher base wage than being dependent upon if the fuckwits in sales manage to not trip over their dicks when selling stuff, or if my manager manages to play bullshit bingo well enough to have the roadmap survive more than three weeks into the new year.
    Bonuses are BS in general. This was my personal conviction for a long time, without any proof. Then I read a study that showed that bonuses only have a negative impact on a company's performance*), for various reasons. The whole assumption that a bonus makes employers work better/hard is flawed. A few points that I remember fom that study.

    - Good people don't need the appeal of a bonus to be good. They're good, because they're just good and/or enjoy what they do. Being accurate/diligent is part of their overall character and therefore also a part of their work ethics.
    - Good people get annoyed, if worse people than themselves are rewarded with similar (or even worse: better) bonus. Remember: they're good/smart/intelligent. They will figure out if that's the case.
    - Bad people don't magically become better at their job, because of a bonus. The assumption that they work better to earn it, they instead spend their time to figure out how to optimize their bonus.

    *) I seem to remember that the performance loss was up to 20% compared to similar companies that don't have a bonus model, but I'm not sure about this
    This interests me. Do you have a link to the study?
    In hindsight, I wish I had bookmarked it. I tried to find it, as I'm pretty certain that I read about the study over at http://www.spiegel.de (German). I even seem to remember that it was an online version of the print version published in Manager Magazin. But I didn't find it. It might be because my Google foo is too weak or more likely because the article vanished behind their paywall.

    This (German) seems to be the closest I can dig up.

    I also seem to remember that the study related similar Game Theory findings with its results, where participants even harm themselves in order to sanction other participants, if they feel those play unfair.

  6. #27526
    Shaftoes's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    Ships
    Posts
    1,718
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    That is largely how it works for most central government departments. While it isn't universal across the public sector (e.g. doctors have their own scale, as do nurses, teachers, the armed forces etc.) most are at least informally in line with those bands.

    Which is kind of the point. To earn what a mid-tier engineer at a bank earns you've got to be the equivalent of a head of department in the civil service.
    Isn't that the problem though?
    That we've got a strong, healthy and thriving financial services sector able to provide well remunerated, stable employment to tens of thousands of people?

    Not really, no.

    That our civil service is unable to pay more than 40k to someone unless they're running a team of 30 people is a problem, particularly when the end result is they have to bring in freelance contractors at £4-800 per day, or IT outsourcers at even more. The people working in the big IT outsourcers for the civil service are civil servants in every respect except for the fact they're not employed by the government.
    Can confirm this is how it works.

    On my current project we have 2 full time perm civil servants as devs (which is crazy rare), 2 civil servant BAs, 2 contractor service managers and 2 contractor user researchers.

    In terms of digital salaries, things are slowly moving forward with roles getting 'professionalised' and specialist pay possibly being doled out on top of your band depending on what skills you have. I imagine I will be collecting my pension at 90 years old before it is actually implemented though.

  7. #27527

    Join Date
    April 14, 2011
    Posts
    6,625
    HMRC tried to up the pay with RCDTS Ltd but got slapped down by the treasury and were forced to stick to TUPE. DWP have pulled it off with DWP Digital Ltd, but are still way below market rates for top people, and their senior technical staff still get lumped with all the usual senior civil servant bullshit.

    It's too much cultural change to try and do by the back door. The whole sector needs to adapt to understand that people no longer come into a profession expecting to spend 30 years coming to the same office, monday to friday, from 7am until lunchtime*.


    *Flexitime: the last remaining civil service perk.

  8. #27528
    Crystalline Entity's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 14, 2011
    Posts
    5,216
    This is a speech by the head of the FCA given yesterday. It is apolitical (as made evident by the introduction), and at discusses some issues around Brexit and the future of the City.

    If people want to be political or remain/leave ranty there are bits in there for both ‘sides’, but I read it just as an interested observer of regulatory things.

    https://www.fca.org.uk/news/speeches/future-city

    Quite like Bailey, I read a lot of his speeches and those of his other directors and they always see to have their head screwed on right (even if the FCA can fuck things up sometimes)
    "I think we could all do with sitting back a bit and detaching ourselves from the situation to really think about how these issues reflect on our future and how we discuss them here and be a bit less aggressive or defensive because everyone has a complicated set of circumstances that has led the to place importance on particular issues and it doesn't meany any of them is less valid, we just need to look at the broader picture"

    Smuggo - Brexit Thread

  9. #27529
    Duckslayer's Avatar
    Join Date
    October 23, 2017
    Posts
    1,031
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaftoes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    That is largely how it works for most central government departments. While it isn't universal across the public sector (e.g. doctors have their own scale, as do nurses, teachers, the armed forces etc.) most are at least informally in line with those bands.

    Which is kind of the point. To earn what a mid-tier engineer at a bank earns you've got to be the equivalent of a head of department in the civil service.
    Isn't that the problem though?
    That we've got a strong, healthy and thriving financial services sector able to provide well remunerated, stable employment to tens of thousands of people?

    Not really, no.

    That our civil service is unable to pay more than 40k to someone unless they're running a team of 30 people is a problem, particularly when the end result is they have to bring in freelance contractors at £4-800 per day, or IT outsourcers at even more. The people working in the big IT outsourcers for the civil service are civil servants in every respect except for the fact they're not employed by the government.
    Can confirm this is how it works.

    On my current project we have 2 full time perm civil servants as devs (which is crazy rare), 2 civil servant BAs, 2 contractor service managers and 2 contractor user researchers.

    In terms of digital salaries, things are slowly moving forward with roles getting 'professionalised' and specialist pay possibly being doled out on top of your band depending on what skills you have. I imagine I will be collecting my pension at 90 years old before it is actually implemented though.
    HA! you think you'll have a pension fund then...

  10. #27530
    smuggo
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post

    HA! you think you'll have a pension fund then...
    I'm kind of glad I missed the boat on my company's final salary scheme by a few years tbh and bar the government raiding the pots of every DC scheme in the country I'm not going to see my 'pension' age pushed out further and further as a result of an aging population (if you're in a DC scheme you can draw at 55, not that I intend to go that early, but certainly before I hit state pension age at 90).

  11. #27531

    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    2006
    Posts
    5,068
    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    The public sector is incapable of attracting the talent to oversee the implementation of structures to allow outsourcing to actually work.

    It's completely priced out of the market by private companies, the resources are not available for the public sector to compete.
    Yep. I won't touch a public job because the performance bonuses are shit.
    performance bonuses is spook tbh, i'd rather have a higher base wage than being dependent upon if the fuckwits in sales manage to not trip over their dicks when selling stuff, or if my manager manages to play bullshit bingo well enough to have the roadmap survive more than three weeks into the new year.
    Bonuses are BS in general. This was my personal conviction for a long time, without any proof. Then I read a study that showed that bonuses only have a negative impact on a company's performance*), for various reasons. The whole assumption that a bonus makes employers work better/hard is flawed. A few points that I remember fom that study.

    - Good people don't need the appeal of a bonus to be good. They're good, because they're just good and/or enjoy what they do. Being accurate/diligent is part of their overall character and therefore also a part of their work ethics.
    - Good people get annoyed, if worse people than themselves are rewarded with similar (or even worse: better) bonus. Remember: they're good/smart/intelligent. They will figure out if that's the case.
    - Bad people don't magically become better at their job, because of a bonus. The assumption that they work better to earn it, they instead spend their time to figure out how to optimize their bonus.

    *) I seem to remember that the performance loss was up to 20% compared to similar companies that don't have a bonus model, but I'm not sure about this
    This interests me. Do you have a link to the study?
    In hindsight, I wish I had bookmarked it. I tried to find it, as I'm pretty certain that I read about the study over at http://www.spiegel.de (German). I even seem to remember that it was an online version of the print version published in Manager Magazin. But I didn't find it. It might be because my Google foo is too weak or more likely because the article vanished behind their paywall.

    This (German) seems to be the closest I can dig up.

    I also seem to remember that the study related similar Game Theory findings with its results, where participants even harm themselves in order to sanction other participants, if they feel those play unfair.
    Ah well. Your effort is appreciated.

  12. #27532
    Donor Spawinte's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    6,394

  13. #27533
    Liare's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    12,405
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  14. #27534
    Shaikar's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    Kador
    Posts
    2,345
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    It is rather unfair to suggest the image implied Brexit would result in 350m/week extra for the NHS.
    They're clearly totally unrelated phrases and to suggest Farage and Johnson et al are utterly mendacious wastes of skin is shocking.
    Does your foreign envy of these sceptred isles know no bounds??

  15. #27535

    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    Pizza delivery van
    Posts
    6,242
    The more fucked up UK gets the easier it will be to push eu forward into closer integration as stepping out of the union will be unthinkable, which ain't a bad thing at all.

  16. #27536
    Meester's Avatar
    Join Date
    October 25, 2011
    Posts
    1,366
    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    The more fucked up UK gets the easier it will be to push eu forward into closer integration as stepping out of the union will be unthinkable, which ain't a bad thing at all.
    The USSR also worked on the principle of servitude. Guess where that is now?

  17. #27537
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    in front of the class
    Posts
    14,401
    Quote Originally Posted by Meester View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    The more fucked up UK gets the easier it will be to push eu forward into closer integration as stepping out of the union will be unthinkable, which ain't a bad thing at all.
    The USSR also worked on the principle of servitude. Guess where that is now?
    Yet more proof that you have no idea what you're talking about.

    Tapapapatalk
    nevar forget

  18. #27538
    Malcanis's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 12, 2011
    Posts
    14,608
    I am darkly amused by the fairly strong correlation between the local strength of the Leave of and the damage that Brexit will cause. Enjoy spending a few years on the tory idea of what the dole should be, you dumb racist shits.

    There, I said it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  19. #27539

    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Posts
    4,677
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    I am darkly amused by the fairly strong correlation between the local strength of the Leave of and the damage that Brexit will cause. Enjoy spending a few years on the tory idea of what the dole should be, you dumb racist shits.

    There, I said it.
    Schadenfreude is great.

  20. #27540

    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    Chair
    Posts
    6,265
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    I am darkly amused by the fairly strong correlation between the local strength of the Leave of and the damage that Brexit will cause. Enjoy spending a few years on the tory idea of what the dole should be, you dumb racist shits.

    There, I said it.
    You're hardly the first.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •