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Thread: (UK EURO WAFFLE) Limey Civil War

  1. #27501
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    if i wanted to be a despicable human being, i'd be looking at get my bsc. in law, not engineering.
    Difficult field to get into at the moment. A lot of law graduates end up pretty disappointed with their options after graduation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  2. #27502
    Liare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    if i wanted to be a despicable human being, i'd be looking at get my bsc. in law, not engineering.
    Difficult field to get into at the moment. A lot of law graduates end up pretty disappointed with their options after graduation.
    perhaps in the UK, but not over here.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  3. #27503

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    The public sector is incapable of attracting the talent to oversee the implementation of structures to allow outsourcing to actually work.

    It's completely priced out of the market by private companies, the resources are not available for the public sector to compete.
    Yep. I won't touch a public job because the performance bonuses are shit.
    performance bonuses is spook tbh, i'd rather have a higher base wage than being dependent upon if the fuckwits in sales manage to not trip over their dicks when selling stuff, or if my manager manages to play bullshit bingo well enough to have the roadmap survive more than three weeks into the new year.
    Bonuses are BS in general. This was my personal conviction for a long time, without any proof. Then I read a study that showed that bonuses only have a negative impact on a company's performance*), for various reasons. The whole assumption that a bonus makes employers work better/hard is flawed. A few points that I remember fom that study.

    - Good people don't need the appeal of a bonus to be good. They're good, because they're just good and/or enjoy what they do. Being accurate/diligent is part of their overall character and therefore also a part of their work ethics.
    - Good people get annoyed, if worse people than themselves are rewarded with similar (or even worse: better) bonus. Remember: they're good/smart/intelligent. They will figure out if that's the case.
    - Bad people don't magically become better at their job, because of a bonus. The assumption that they work better to earn it, they instead spend their time to figure out how to optimize their bonus.

    *) I seem to remember that the performance loss was up to 20% compared to similar companies that don't have a bonus model, but I'm not sure about this

  4. #27504

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Whisper it quietly but the biggest blocker to the public sector paying exceptional wages for exceptional people is the unions.
    eh kinda. I think the idea of 'super managers' and the like is a myth though.

    Unions need a massive overhaul and a complete reevaluation as to their purpose in a modern economy, but not so that a few successful people can earn stupid amounts of money in the public sector because they were once successful somewhere else.

    The unions aren't limiting public sector resourcing budgets or creating a culture of talent bleed.
    I'm not talking about super managers. Right now the public sector simply cannot employ skilled people in a huge, huge range of professions. The problem is particularly acute in technology, where strict pay scales and job categorisation result in people being paid 1/2, 1/3 or worse what they would at literally any other employer. Fuck knows how they manage to employ any Lawyers.
    Last edited by elmicker; January 31 2018 at 02:34:03 PM.

  5. #27505

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    The public sector is incapable of attracting the talent to oversee the implementation of structures to allow outsourcing to actually work.

    It's completely priced out of the market by private companies, the resources are not available for the public sector to compete.
    Yep. I won't touch a public job because the performance bonuses are shit.
    performance bonuses is spook tbh, i'd rather have a higher base wage than being dependent upon if the fuckwits in sales manage to not trip over their dicks when selling stuff, or if my manager manages to play bullshit bingo well enough to have the roadmap survive more than three weeks into the new year.
    Bonuses are BS in general. This was my personal conviction for a long time, without any proof. Then I read a study that showed that bonuses only have a negative impact on a company's performance*), for various reasons. The whole assumption that a bonus makes employers work better/hard is flawed. A few points that I remember fom that study.

    - Good people don't need the appeal of a bonus to be good. They're good, because they're just good and/or enjoy what they do. Being accurate/diligent is part of their overall character and therefore also a part of their work ethics.
    - Good people get annoyed, if worse people than themselves are rewarded with similar (or even worse: better) bonus. Remember: they're good/smart/intelligent. They will figure out if that's the case.
    - Bad people don't magically become better at their job, because of a bonus. The assumption that they work better to earn it, they instead spend their time to figure out how to optimize their bonus.

    *) I seem to remember that the performance loss was up to 20% compared to similar companies that don't have a bonus model, but I'm not sure about this
    This interests me. Do you have a link to the study?

  6. #27506
    Djan Seriy Anaplian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Whisper it quietly but the biggest blocker to the public sector paying exceptional wages for exceptional people is the unions.
    eh kinda. I think the idea of 'super managers' and the like is a myth though.

    Unions need a massive overhaul and a complete reevaluation as to their purpose in a modern economy, but not so that a few successful people can earn stupid amounts of money in the public sector because they were once successful somewhere else.

    The unions aren't limiting public sector resourcing budgets or creating a culture of talent bleed.
    I'm not talking about super managers. Right now the public sector simply cannot employ skilled people in a huge, huge range of professions. The problem is particularly acute in technology, where strict pay scales and job categorisation result in people being paid 1/2, 1/3 or worse what they would at literally any other employer. Fuck knows how they manage to employ any Lawyers.
    The competition for training contracts/pupillage is such that you even get half-decent candidates applying for the gls.

  7. #27507

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    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Whisper it quietly but the biggest blocker to the public sector paying exceptional wages for exceptional people is the unions.
    eh kinda. I think the idea of 'super managers' and the like is a myth though.

    Unions need a massive overhaul and a complete reevaluation as to their purpose in a modern economy, but not so that a few successful people can earn stupid amounts of money in the public sector because they were once successful somewhere else.

    The unions aren't limiting public sector resourcing budgets or creating a culture of talent bleed.
    I'm not talking about super managers. Right now the public sector simply cannot employ skilled people in a huge, huge range of professions. The problem is particularly acute in technology, where strict pay scales and job categorisation result in people being paid 1/2, 1/3 or worse what they would at literally any other employer. Fuck knows how they manage to employ any Lawyers.
    The competition for training contracts/pupillage is such that you even get half-decent candidates applying for the gls.
    What's the attrition rate like? Do they actually hang around?

  8. #27508
    Djan Seriy Anaplian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Whisper it quietly but the biggest blocker to the public sector paying exceptional wages for exceptional people is the unions.
    eh kinda. I think the idea of 'super managers' and the like is a myth though.

    Unions need a massive overhaul and a complete reevaluation as to their purpose in a modern economy, but not so that a few successful people can earn stupid amounts of money in the public sector because they were once successful somewhere else.

    The unions aren't limiting public sector resourcing budgets or creating a culture of talent bleed.
    I'm not talking about super managers. Right now the public sector simply cannot employ skilled people in a huge, huge range of professions. The problem is particularly acute in technology, where strict pay scales and job categorisation result in people being paid 1/2, 1/3 or worse what they would at literally any other employer. Fuck knows how they manage to employ any Lawyers.
    The competition for training contracts/pupillage is such that you even get half-decent candidates applying for the gls.
    What's the attrition rate like? Do they actually hang around?
    Ridiculously high at any decent law firm. I heard a colleague state that it was 60% at mine at 2 years post qualification. That's probably hyperbole, but I think we offer the second or third most training contracts in the city - even though there's a bit of a crisis with partner positions (pyramid doesn't work, nobody's dying), we still lose a shitload.
    I find this is an issue the more corporate/less research based you get: most of the work is based off precedent and therefore it's not particularly cerebral. Not sure how the gls fares but I'm sure it's still p bad.

  9. #27509
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    It's only going to get worse when we start putting lawyers heads in jars like Futurama

  10. #27510
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    I don't know how it works in the UK, but government employees in Austria and Germany have their pay set by law due to being Beamte (civil servants with a special status, not technically employed but appointed and any non-Beamter gets a salary based on the corresponding Beamte). That leads to a very strict hierarchy in salary that is comparable across every government job but doesn't allow for individual negotiations. My own pay level is that of a Major in the army.

    Tapapapatalk
    nevar forget

  11. #27511

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    That is largely how it works for most central government departments. While it isn't universal across the public sector (e.g. doctors have their own scale, as do nurses, teachers, the armed forces etc.) most are at least informally in line with those bands.

    Which is kind of the point. To earn what a mid-tier engineer at a bank earns you've got to be the equivalent of a head of department in the civil service.

  12. #27512
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    That is largely how it works for most central government departments. While it isn't universal across the public sector (e.g. doctors have their own scale, as do nurses, teachers, the armed forces etc.) most are at least informally in line with those bands.

    Which is kind of the point. To earn what a mid-tier engineer at a bank earns you've got to be the equivalent of a head of department in the civil service.
    Isn't that the problem though?
    nevar forget

  13. #27513
    Meester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    half are local government, who are not well equipped to survive the collapse of their biggest supplier.
    Ah local government, half up their own arseholes at the best of times.

  14. #27514
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Whisper it quietly but the biggest blocker to the public sector paying exceptional wages for exceptional people is the unions.
    eh kinda. I think the idea of 'super managers' and the like is a myth though.

    Unions need a massive overhaul and a complete reevaluation as to their purpose in a modern economy, but not so that a few successful people can earn stupid amounts of money in the public sector because they were once successful somewhere else.

    The unions aren't limiting public sector resourcing budgets or creating a culture of talent bleed.
    I'm not talking about super managers. Right now the public sector simply cannot employ skilled people in a huge, huge range of professions. The problem is particularly acute in technology, where strict pay scales and job categorisation result in people being paid 1/2, 1/3 or worse what they would at literally any other employer. Fuck knows how they manage to employ any Lawyers.
    Assume there are 6 lawyers looking for a job and 5 private sector positions to fill...
    Tanks: theBlind[URBAD] (in my heart there will always be a place for [FAIL])
    Planetside2: [UBAD]theAngelic

  15. #27515

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    That is largely how it works for most central government departments. While it isn't universal across the public sector (e.g. doctors have their own scale, as do nurses, teachers, the armed forces etc.) most are at least informally in line with those bands.

    Which is kind of the point. To earn what a mid-tier engineer at a bank earns you've got to be the equivalent of a head of department in the civil service.
    Isn't that the problem though?
    That we've got a strong, healthy and thriving financial services sector able to provide well remunerated, stable employment to tens of thousands of people?

    Not really, no.

    That our civil service is unable to pay more than 40k to someone unless they're running a team of 30 people is a problem, particularly when the end result is they have to bring in freelance contractors at 4-800 per day, or IT outsourcers at even more. The people working in the big IT outsourcers for the civil service are civil servants in every respect except for the fact they're not employed by the government.

  16. #27516
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    That is largely how it works for most central government departments. While it isn't universal across the public sector (e.g. doctors have their own scale, as do nurses, teachers, the armed forces etc.) most are at least informally in line with those bands.

    Which is kind of the point. To earn what a mid-tier engineer at a bank earns you've got to be the equivalent of a head of department in the civil service.
    Isn't that the problem though?
    That we've got a strong, healthy and thriving financial services sector able to provide well remunerated, stable employment to tens of thousands of people?

    Not really, no.

    That our civil service is unable to pay more than 40k to someone unless they're running a team of 30 people is a problem, particularly when the end result is they have to bring in freelance contractors at 4-800 per day, or IT outsourcers at even more. The people working in the big IT outsourcers for the civil service are civil servants in every respect except for the fact they're not employed by the government.
    I'd say the problem is that the civil service is not capable of paying a comparative wage to the open sector thus ends up not being able to hire the best possible. Sometimes not even the top half. During my M.Ed. I met some truly genius people studying all sorts of subjects. One guy stood out, super emphatic, great with people, one of the best chemists according to one of his professors. He never became a teacher but went into chemistry research with a six figure salary. Quite a few people did that. Our studies were mostly straight M.A./M.Sc. curriculum with a little bit of education thrown in. We could either stay at uni in research, go into the private sector or become teachers. A lot of people chose the second option simply because quite often it paid better. Fuck even McD offered me better pay for their internal training department than what most teachers make. Didn't take it because I wanted to teach at a school.

    And people wonder why we have too few teachers/civil servants/anything employed by the public sector...

    /rant
    nevar forget

  17. #27517
    Liare's Avatar
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    it's called civil servant for a reason y'know, besides if you started offering competitive pay for public positions how could you possibly argue the private sector is magically better ?
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  18. #27518
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    it's called civil servant for a reason y'know, besides if you started offering competitive pay for public positions how could you possibly argue the private sector is magically better ?
    Well then don't complain that you don't have any science or mint teachers. That is the true shortage and it's only increasing.
    nevar forget

  19. #27519
    Liare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    it's called civil servant for a reason y'know, besides if you started offering competitive pay for public positions how could you possibly argue the private sector is magically better ?
    Well then don't complain that you don't have any science or mint teachers. That is the true shortage and it's only increasing.
    surely you have noticed that the response to that is to simply lower the quality of the teaching that in turn serves to promote private school alternatives?
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  20. #27520
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theBlind View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Whisper it quietly but the biggest blocker to the public sector paying exceptional wages for exceptional people is the unions.
    eh kinda. I think the idea of 'super managers' and the like is a myth though.

    Unions need a massive overhaul and a complete reevaluation as to their purpose in a modern economy, but not so that a few successful people can earn stupid amounts of money in the public sector because they were once successful somewhere else.

    The unions aren't limiting public sector resourcing budgets or creating a culture of talent bleed.
    I'm not talking about super managers. Right now the public sector simply cannot employ skilled people in a huge, huge range of professions. The problem is particularly acute in technology, where strict pay scales and job categorisation result in people being paid 1/2, 1/3 or worse what they would at literally any other employer. Fuck knows how they manage to employ any Lawyers.
    Assume there are 6 lawyers looking for a job and 5 private sector positions to fill...
    Well what else did we invent cage-fighting for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

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