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Thread: Pestilence or: How I Learned to Worry Constantly and Live with COVID

  1. #6081

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    Or it comes to light that BoJo has been issuing secret orders for AZ that they need to deliver to UK only primarly and aren't allowed to speak about the orders. The glorious tinfoil explanation!

    (More than probably it is just AZ fucking up with the contracts, maybe having multiple different teams doing them and ending up with contradictory mess of contracts and trying to cover the mess up)

  2. #6082
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    From what i can glean, removing the nationalistic bullshit, it looks like AZ got themselves into a problem by over-promising doses that it could not hope to provide unless best case production scenarios worked out perfectly (all factories and logistics hitting the ground running and no problems), which is dumb. AZ then didn't appear to inform the EU of the upcoming shortfall, due to inefficiencies in logistics and factory output, all the while covering the UK contract with stock from the EU (iirc the bits of the contracts which we can see don't state that this isn't allowed, so fair game). Realising AZ didn't have enough vaccine for the folks at home AND knowing AZ had used EU stock to cover UK shortfall, the EU spazzed out, making an utter arse of themselves.

    With the news outlets appearing to go pretty much full ham, AZ appears to be playing the UK and EU off against each other despite signing conflicting contractual obligations. AZ is initially at fault for promising so much and the EU is at fault for over-reacting to contractual mis-management.

    My opinion is that AZ should get a swift kick in the nuts for being greedy (a multinational pharma company being greedy .... who'd have thunk it?) and both the UK and the EU should sort the doses out sharpish, but with 'cunt-o-matic Johnson' (who would love to score points against the EU for anything) and Von Der Leyen at the respective helms, it might just be a shitty situation that leads to a further breakdown in trust between the states.
    Shitting up eve for .... well, longer than most of you scumbags.

  3. #6083
    Djan Seriy Anaplian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulip View Post
    The difference is the EU are pointing at the best effort clause on their contract but AZ are pointing at the best effort clause in all the other contracts they signed first.

    It's not like AZ were hard up for cash, credit lines or customers when the EU signed up to join in.
    This. Even if AZ have been playing silly buggers with diverted supply, when you wait that long to make a commercial agreement - and haggle over price/indemnity - you create problems for yourself.

  4. #6084
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Interestingly, why didnt germany have this sort of deal with their university developed vaccine?
    Do you have a link for what the UK contract is supposed to be like?

    If you mean Biontech, that's a private company not a university. The EU countries agreed to joint procurement in part to avoid vaccine contract wars between the 27 member states and a repeat of the country-by-country PPE wars and national export restrictions for vaccines, i.e. to avoid what you are suggesting. Germany didn't put Germany first in this in part because of the outsized scrutiny that rains down on it every time it does anything like that.

    The USA has gone full vaccine nationalism and exports no doses of vaccine at all. Canada gets supplied from EU facilities.
    This.

    Do you guys remember when the federal government in the US wasn't buying masks and instead let the states do that individually? How much if a clusterfuck that ended up being? Imagine if the EU member nations would do the same. I mean as a German I'd be content in knowing that we would have enough vaccines for everyone. I'm not so sure Poland or the Czech would have managed that, just to name two.

    I mean we could have put an export embargo on the vaccine until every German has got their shots. That would however mean that almost no one else would get the vaccine due to where most of the factories are.

    When the decision was made that Europe should buy as one, there was a statement made in a joint press conference by the German Federal government and the state governments: Germany isn't isolated. We can't defeat this virus just by vaccinating ourselves. Our neighbors need to be safe too. They trade with us, some work here. We can't blindly believe that we would be safe. Our economy wouldn't survive this either.

    Any German Autobahn at any given time is full with trucks from Portugal to Russia, Norway to Italy and everything in between. It makes no sense to go alone.

    That might be hard to grasp for someone living on an island that does not have a border to another country.

    Tapapapatalk
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  5. #6085
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smegs View Post
    From what i can glean, removing the nationalistic bullshit, it looks like AZ got themselves into a problem by over-promising doses that it could not hope to provide unless best case production scenarios worked out perfectly (all factories and logistics hitting the ground running and no problems), which is dumb. AZ then didn't appear to inform the EU of the upcoming shortfall, due to inefficiencies in logistics and factory output, all the while covering the UK contract with stock from the EU (iirc the bits of the contracts which we can see don't state that this isn't allowed, so fair game). Realising AZ didn't have enough vaccine for the folks at home AND knowing AZ had used EU stock to cover UK shortfall, the EU spazzed out, making an utter arse of themselves.

    With the news outlets appearing to go pretty much full ham, AZ appears to be playing the UK and EU off against each other despite signing conflicting contractual obligations. AZ is initially at fault for promising so much and the EU is at fault for over-reacting to contractual mis-management.

    My opinion is that AZ should get a swift kick in the nuts for being greedy (a multinational pharma company being greedy .... who'd have thunk it?) and both the UK and the EU should sort the doses out sharpish, but with 'cunt-o-matic Johnson' (who would love to score points against the EU for anything) and Von Der Leyen at the respective helms, it might just be a shitty situation that leads to a further breakdown in trust between the states.
    Very good summary of what I think as well

  6. #6086

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    Always good to compare things to the Nazis.


  7. #6087
    Movember 2012 Stoffl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    this is a sort of makes sense-ish looking writeup on it i've found;

    UK signed deal with AZ in May 20 and provided mass funding for research, testing, facilities to be built/enhanced/etc (inc 2 in UK), production, etc. This was a best effort contract with a anticipated delivery timeline, could be bit more, but could be bit less. The contract specified that UK takes priority and UK plants will exclusively supply UK until such a time that UK contract is fulfilled, but that doesn't stop AZ from supplying UK from their EU based facilities too in order to make up the numbers or complete contract earlier. That is one of the benefits of signing up to a contract first, providing funding and also developing to vaccine itself.

    EU Vaccine 4 agreed contract with AZ, but EU stopped them before it was finalised and took over on behalf of the whole EU27. This move not only increased the quantities by a huge amount, but substantially delayed the contract and any funding for AZ till August 20. This was, again, a best effort contract with a anticipated delivery timeline, could be bit more, but could be bit less. The contract does not seem to specify where the product comes from or that EU plants must fulfil EU orders first. Due to delays at EU based plants, there are delays to EU production.

    The EU have even acknowledged that it is indeed a best effort contract that they have signed up to and that there have been production problems at EU based plants. But simply don't care because they want it now and will block exports, etc if they don't get their way; keep in mind that, despite these threats, UK Gov is willing to talk to the EU and help where they can. This is what happens when you sign contracts and provide funding late for an order that is likely 10x the original.

    TLDR: You can put your best effort into multiple objectives (EU and UK), but there can only be one priority (UK). AZ is fulfilling both orders at best effort as per their contract.
    That's not what the released - albeit blacked out - contract says though.

    #Edit* What Gerome said basically
    Last edited by Stoffl; January 30 2021 at 11:56:31 AM.

  8. #6088
    Movember 2012 Stoffl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    Or it comes to light that BoJo has been issuing secret orders for AZ that they need to deliver to UK only primarly and aren't allowed to speak about the orders. The glorious tinfoil explanation!

    (More than probably it is just AZ fucking up with the contracts, maybe having multiple different teams doing them and ending up with contradictory mess of contracts and trying to cover the mess up)


    This tbh.

  9. #6089
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    So AZ got greedy/incompetent and fucked up, Britain gov goes full moron (again) and tries to play the victim card?

      Spoiler:
    And our usual suspects like CC continue drooling in the corner.

  10. #6090
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    AZ seems to think they're better off fulfilling the UK contract. Probably because they have seen the EU will make noises but ultimately they'll find it easier to get away with.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  11. #6091
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tulip View Post
    The difference is the EU are pointing at the best effort clause on their contract but AZ are pointing at the best effort clause in all the other contracts they signed first.

    It's not like AZ were hard up for cash, credit lines or customers when the EU signed up to join in.
    Is that a thing in contracts though, best efforts signed earlier being more important than best efforts signed later (I honestly don't know)?

    Here is how I imagine this: Let's say that for January, the UK and the EU each have 10 units of vaccine scheduled for delivery, because AZ had planned to have 20 production capacity for January delivery. Now AZ turns out to have only 12 unit capacity for January. In a "first agreed best effort beats all" scenario, the UK gets 10 units of vaccine and the EU gets 2. In an "equitable best effort" scenario, both the UK and the EU get 6.
    UK gets 80% of the uk (final) manufactured product because that's the deal we signed, and no crying about sourcing the components from the EU for final UK assembly. MADE IT BRITAAAAAAAAYN MAYTES. LEGIT


    Interestingly, why didnt germany have this sort of deal with their university developed vaccine?
    Do you have a link for what the UK contract is supposed to be like?

    If you mean Biontech, that's a private company not a university. The EU countries agreed to joint procurement in part to avoid vaccine contract wars between the 27 member states and a repeat of the country-by-country PPE wars and national export restrictions for vaccines, i.e. to avoid what you are suggesting. Germany didn't put Germany first in this in part because of the outsized scrutiny that rains down on it every time it does anything like that.

    The USA has gone full vaccine nationalism and exports no doses of vaccine at all. Canada gets supplied from EU facilities.
    So what youre saying is Germany didnt use their universities to develop a not for profit vaccine like the UK did?

  12. #6092
    Pegging Specialist Donor indi's Avatar
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    *tinfoil hat on*

    It goes some way to explain why AZ didn't apply earlier for EU authorization to use the vaccine.

  13. #6093
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    Again, to the people calling AZ greedy, these shots are being sold at cost... They would literally make as much profit by not making any at all.

    This is a multinational pharmaceutical company actually trying to do the right thing in a grim time by conjuring up a unicorn and pricing it as a horse and everyone is mad that they cannot all have their unicorn immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
    Just for the record, "sending a needy text" is never the right answer.

  14. #6094
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tulip View Post
    The difference is the EU are pointing at the best effort clause on their contract but AZ are pointing at the best effort clause in all the other contracts they signed first.

    It's not like AZ were hard up for cash, credit lines or customers when the EU signed up to join in.
    Is that a thing in contracts though, best efforts signed earlier being more important than best efforts signed later (I honestly don't know)?

    Here is how I imagine this: Let's say that for January, the UK and the EU each have 10 units of vaccine scheduled for delivery, because AZ had planned to have 20 production capacity for January delivery. Now AZ turns out to have only 12 unit capacity for January. In a "first agreed best effort beats all" scenario, the UK gets 10 units of vaccine and the EU gets 2. In an "equitable best effort" scenario, both the UK and the EU get 6.
    UK gets 80% of the uk (final) manufactured product because that's the deal we signed, and no crying about sourcing the components from the EU for final UK assembly. MADE IT BRITAAAAAAAAYN MAYTES. LEGIT


    Interestingly, why didnt germany have this sort of deal with their university developed vaccine?
    Do you have a link for what the UK contract is supposed to be like?

    If you mean Biontech, that's a private company not a university. The EU countries agreed to joint procurement in part to avoid vaccine contract wars between the 27 member states and a repeat of the country-by-country PPE wars and national export restrictions for vaccines, i.e. to avoid what you are suggesting. Germany didn't put Germany first in this in part because of the outsized scrutiny that rains down on it every time it does anything like that.

    The USA has gone full vaccine nationalism and exports no doses of vaccine at all. Canada gets supplied from EU facilities.
    So what youre saying is Germany didnt use their universities to develop a not for profit vaccine like the UK did?
    Probably don't click on this link if you would like me to have said that

    https://www.vfa.de/de/englische-inha...ainst-covid-19

  15. #6095
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulip View Post
    Again, to the people calling AZ greedy, these shots are being sold at cost... They would literally make as much profit by not making any at all.

    This is a multinational pharmaceutical company actually trying to do the right thing in a grim time by conjuring up a unicorn and pricing it as a horse and everyone is mad that they cannot all have their unicorn immediately.
    TBF, AZ aren't above a cheeky bit of cost inflation and profit hiding

  16. #6096
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tulip View Post
    The difference is the EU are pointing at the best effort clause on their contract but AZ are pointing at the best effort clause in all the other contracts they signed first.

    It's not like AZ were hard up for cash, credit lines or customers when the EU signed up to join in.
    Is that a thing in contracts though, best efforts signed earlier being more important than best efforts signed later (I honestly don't know)?

    Here is how I imagine this: Let's say that for January, the UK and the EU each have 10 units of vaccine scheduled for delivery, because AZ had planned to have 20 production capacity for January delivery. Now AZ turns out to have only 12 unit capacity for January. In a "first agreed best effort beats all" scenario, the UK gets 10 units of vaccine and the EU gets 2. In an "equitable best effort" scenario, both the UK and the EU get 6.
    UK gets 80% of the uk (final) manufactured product because that's the deal we signed, and no crying about sourcing the components from the EU for final UK assembly. MADE IT BRITAAAAAAAAYN MAYTES. LEGIT


    Interestingly, why didnt germany have this sort of deal with their university developed vaccine?
    Do you have a link for what the UK contract is supposed to be like?

    If you mean Biontech, that's a private company not a university. The EU countries agreed to joint procurement in part to avoid vaccine contract wars between the 27 member states and a repeat of the country-by-country PPE wars and national export restrictions for vaccines, i.e. to avoid what you are suggesting. Germany didn't put Germany first in this in part because of the outsized scrutiny that rains down on it every time it does anything like that.

    The USA has gone full vaccine nationalism and exports no doses of vaccine at all. Canada gets supplied from EU facilities.
    So what youre saying is Germany didnt use their universities to develop a not for profit vaccine like the UK did?
    Probably don't click on this link if you would like me to have said that

    https://www.vfa.de/de/englische-inha...ainst-covid-19
    Wel lthen, just use them vaccines instead of ours. Easy solution!

  17. #6097
    Movember 2012 Stoffl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulip View Post
    Again, to the people calling AZ greedy, these shots are being sold at cost... They would literally make as much profit by not making any at all.

    This is a multinational pharmaceutical company actually trying to do the right thing in a grim time by conjuring up a unicorn and pricing it as a horse and everyone is mad that they cannot all have their unicorn immediately.
    Or so they claim. I bet it isn't. At the very least it's including very small profit margin including all logistics, distribution and obviosly development costs.

  18. #6098
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tulip View Post
    The difference is the EU are pointing at the best effort clause on their contract but AZ are pointing at the best effort clause in all the other contracts they signed first.

    It's not like AZ were hard up for cash, credit lines or customers when the EU signed up to join in.
    Is that a thing in contracts though, best efforts signed earlier being more important than best efforts signed later (I honestly don't know)?

    Here is how I imagine this: Let's say that for January, the UK and the EU each have 10 units of vaccine scheduled for delivery, because AZ had planned to have 20 production capacity for January delivery. Now AZ turns out to have only 12 unit capacity for January. In a "first agreed best effort beats all" scenario, the UK gets 10 units of vaccine and the EU gets 2. In an "equitable best effort" scenario, both the UK and the EU get 6.
    UK gets 80% of the uk (final) manufactured product because that's the deal we signed, and no crying about sourcing the components from the EU for final UK assembly. MADE IT BRITAAAAAAAAYN MAYTES. LEGIT


    Interestingly, why didnt germany have this sort of deal with their university developed vaccine?
    Do you have a link for what the UK contract is supposed to be like?

    If you mean Biontech, that's a private company not a university. The EU countries agreed to joint procurement in part to avoid vaccine contract wars between the 27 member states and a repeat of the country-by-country PPE wars and national export restrictions for vaccines, i.e. to avoid what you are suggesting. Germany didn't put Germany first in this in part because of the outsized scrutiny that rains down on it every time it does anything like that.

    The USA has gone full vaccine nationalism and exports no doses of vaccine at all. Canada gets supplied from EU facilities.
    So what youre saying is Germany didnt use their universities to develop a not for profit vaccine like the UK did?
    Probably don't click on this link if you would like me to have said that

    https://www.vfa.de/de/englische-inha...ainst-covid-19
    Wel lthen, just use them vaccines instead of ours. Easy solution!
    No problemo, let me just redirect some of the necessary chemicals to the right place over here instead of sending them to, eh, let me check, Astra something or other

    vaccine nationalism status: achieved

  19. #6099
    Duckslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tulip View Post
    The difference is the EU are pointing at the best effort clause on their contract but AZ are pointing at the best effort clause in all the other contracts they signed first.

    It's not like AZ were hard up for cash, credit lines or customers when the EU signed up to join in.
    Is that a thing in contracts though, best efforts signed earlier being more important than best efforts signed later (I honestly don't know)?

    Here is how I imagine this: Let's say that for January, the UK and the EU each have 10 units of vaccine scheduled for delivery, because AZ had planned to have 20 production capacity for January delivery. Now AZ turns out to have only 12 unit capacity for January. In a "first agreed best effort beats all" scenario, the UK gets 10 units of vaccine and the EU gets 2. In an "equitable best effort" scenario, both the UK and the EU get 6.
    UK gets 80% of the uk (final) manufactured product because that's the deal we signed, and no crying about sourcing the components from the EU for final UK assembly. MADE IT BRITAAAAAAAAYN MAYTES. LEGIT


    Interestingly, why didnt germany have this sort of deal with their university developed vaccine?
    Do you have a link for what the UK contract is supposed to be like?

    If you mean Biontech, that's a private company not a university. The EU countries agreed to joint procurement in part to avoid vaccine contract wars between the 27 member states and a repeat of the country-by-country PPE wars and national export restrictions for vaccines, i.e. to avoid what you are suggesting. Germany didn't put Germany first in this in part because of the outsized scrutiny that rains down on it every time it does anything like that.

    The USA has gone full vaccine nationalism and exports no doses of vaccine at all. Canada gets supplied from EU facilities.
    So what youre saying is Germany didnt use their universities to develop a not for profit vaccine like the UK did?
    Probably don't click on this link if you would like me to have said that

    https://www.vfa.de/de/englische-inha...ainst-covid-19
    Wel lthen, just use them vaccines instead of ours. Easy solution!
    No problemo, let me just redirect some of the necessary chemicals to the right place over here instead of sending them to, eh, let me check, Astra something or other

    vaccine nationalism status: achieved
    Go for it. You can stop the whining about not getting your vaccines then, and we can get back to our whining about being pirate island

  20. #6100
    Djan Seriy Anaplian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    So AZ got greedy/incompetent and fucked up, Britain gov goes full moron (again) and tries to play the victim card?

      Spoiler:
    And our usual suspects like CC continue drooling in the corner.
    For once the British government hasn’t really done anything wrong. It’s pretty impressive watching some of the mental gymnastics here from the usual suspects.

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