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Thread: North Korean Nuclear Boogaloo

  1. #1641
    Lowa [NSN]'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evelgrivion View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    I believe the consequences of non-compliance is the reintroduction of sanctions. Which we have already done, removing a major incentive for Iran to adhere to the treaty.
    That kind of approach still leaves the government of Iran walking away with a boatload of cash and a green light to perform some dual use activities openly in the process, which mostly gives them incentive to, at minimum, pretend to comply for a while even if they fully intend to go back to the status quo; they really don't have very much to lose by doing so. I suspect Donald Trump wants to make a deal with stronger enforcement terms than the Obama deal, so that it actually is a big deal for all parties if a violation takes place.
    But if you apply your long term thinking (like you seem to do on other things here, apologies if thats too far of an assumption) wouldnt Iran by complying and getting restrictions/sanctions lifted (hence more money, one way or the other) meaning higher standard of living, meaning a happier population, give them a reason to keep to their promise as much as possible?
    I'm thinking that they (government) are already somewhat under pressure for things being shit for people, what would happen if a even larger part of the population got used to a nice Iranian version of middle-class living only to get proper curb-stomped because their leaders tried to get away with some shit? And "shit" could have included a lot more than just spinning around atop a centrifuge!
    I'm not saying the last attempt of a "revolution" was even close to succeeding but it was for all intents and purposes a huge wake-up call that you need to reform and give in or your loyal subjects might actually fuck you over...

    And a continued dialog on-top of the nuclear deal could have been geared towards ending support for proxy wars or general arms racing or [otherstuff], in exchange for more "value" after X years of upholding the nuclear deal to get the positive effects felt across a large(er) part of the people?

    Just some examples, I am willing to bet there would be countless others if the deal would have gone on.
    Hell, I bet you could have renegotiated some stuff in that deal if that was necessary.


    But no, giving up the Iran deal was, like so many other reversals, just about "fuck Obama".
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  2. #1642
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebomby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Evelgrivion View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by thebomby View Post
    People without the ability to filter their thoughts are generally not very bright. Maybe Trump's an exception, but all I currently see is a man who is fucking over all his supposed allies in favour of better relations with despots. Regardless of this, one thing I definitely also see is that quite a number of americans get all hot and sweaty with patriotic fervour when their president makes big noises and does big things. I remember the same attitude, especially towards Europe (remember Rumsfeld and his old and new Europe?) around 2003 when Cheney and co were stirring for the war that started the current round of shit in the middle east.

    The hypocrisy that is Trump's approach to Iran, as opposed to his approach to other countries with significantly less freedoms than Iranians have is also somewhat painful. Iran may be a basket case mix of religious zealotry combined with a large youthful population who would actually like to do something meaningful with their lives, a country that has been causing shit around the globe since the fall of the shah, but America's hate boner for their impudence of holding the hostages at the US embassy, supporting Saddam's genocidal campaign against them and even shooting down one of their airliners and never even apologising for it may have something to do with the Iranian fanaticism.

    Nobody suggested that sanctions be placed on the Saudis, whose money has paid for the deaths of tens of thousands in various terrorist acts. Nobody did much about North Korea killing someone in public with VX gas or abducting Japanese citizens.

    I know it's all a game of who has the most cash and power, and that just about no one is immune from its attraction, but it still is pretty awful.
    So, if I'm following this right, the crux of the argument here is that any progress on the issue of North Korea doesn't matter because :reasons:. Well, it's a better argument than most of the stuff I've seen here about Trump that basically amounts to regurgitating an impression and then calling people retards when the two perspectives are in conflict.

    Trump was elected for a desire to change the status quo, and shaking up everything. Existing economic agreements and outstanding international diplomacy concerns have unfortunate incidental timing, but there's little reason to infer a causal relationship between international diplomacy towards North Korea and Iran with wanting to eliminate the trade imbalances. I think things will get better for everyone in the long run, and we're in the middle of the ugly part of the realignment. If I'm wrong, well, he'll either be out of office by 2020 or 2024.
    I didn't know you were in favour of Trump, but stranger things have happened. Maybe you're right and maybe it'll all turn out to be great for everyone involved, but personally, I doubt it.

    But first things first: There would never be a nuclear war between North Korea and anyone. The only way North Korea would ever have used its nuclear weapons would have been if they were attacked. Anything else would have ended North Korea's existence. They know this. They may have something in common with Trump in that they make big loud noises, and they may be batshit crazy, but they're not dumb.

    You go on about Obama and his approach to North Korea, but how different was his approach to that of the Bush or Clinton administrations? Not much. The difference is that Trump wanted the media grandstanding that meeting Kim would give him, and the NK issue has mostly been a want to meet directly with the US over the years, which all other US administrations have refused. The issue with Iran is that there was actually an internationally ratified and working agreement on nuclear weapons development, and Trump just dropped it because Netanyahu and King Salman happen to be friends of his? No attempt at diplomacy there, or would you call it that? No attempt to actually get the fucking Saudis and Iranians to talk to one another. Just ratchet up the tension in the Gulf some more and pretend everything will turn out fine for everyone in the long run. That is either incredibly naive, given middle eastern history, or just plain denial.

    The "trade imbalance" is pure crap, and no one but the US' fault in terms of manufacturing. US software and IT companies are far and away the biggest in the world, and they have a huge "trade imbalance" just about everywhere. Should the EU or maybe China decide to tell Apple that its products now cost 25% more, in the interests of "fair trade"? There's a reason American cars sell just about nowhere outside the US. I'll leave it up to you to figure out why that is. The problem is that Trump's actions are forcing everyone to react in kind. No one is just going to roll over and take it up the bum, even if it hurts their own interests. How do you think that is going to work out? Do you think China will forget about it and just be nice? Do you think that making the Chinese lose face is a good thing? You don't think they're capable of reacting or willing to react?

    As I said, you might be right and everything will be fine, but it's like betting on the lotto, man.
    One small point of order:

    Literally everyone I know who still lives in SA wants either a Mustang or F-150 but can’t really afford them because only the higher end models go there, and they are mid to high end BMW prices.

    So Fords would sell well there if the exported the cheap versions.
    Last edited by erichkknaar; June 12 2018 at 11:42:14 PM.
    meh

  3. #1643
    Movember 2012 Stoffl's Avatar
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    You should really stick with cartoons for prebuscent girls

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  4. #1644
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    Did someone say prepubescent girls?

  5. #1645
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    This belongs in here.. So I hate posting news.com.au because they are one of those 'make the headlines sound amazing for clicks!' web sites. Sometimes however they say things better than I can..

    https://www.news.com.au/finance/work...0ed9b3ae6aec66

    But for the past year, the Chinese Communist Party has been calling for the exact measure that Mr Trump conceded — a freeze-for-freeze.

    That is, if North Korea suspends its nuclear and missile tests, the US will suspend its “war games” with South Korea in the region.

    Why does this matter? Because one of China’s main long-term goals is for the US to retreat from Asia, which will give the rising superpower more opportunity to dominate the world stage.
    Can anyone remember how many meetings with China Kim had before meeting trump?
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  6. #1646

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    This has been the narrative of the comments I heard, too. The real winner is China. Intentionally or not. They've been parenting NK for ages now, literally feeding that troubling 'lil kid. And although all seems quite and it's quitley building sand castles, knowing what kind of troublemaker your 'lil bastard can be, China never really could trun its attention away from NK for too long.

  7. #1647
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evelgrivion View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruri View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Evelgrivion View Post
    So, if I'm following this right, the crux of the argument here is that any progress on the issue of North Korea doesn't matter because :reasons:.
    If you call "morally legitimizing a plainly murderous despotic dictatorship in exchange for them no longer imprisoning three Americans and making the same promise they've been making and breaking for 60 years" progress, well, sure. If you drive your car off a cliff, you're making "progress" towards the ground, I'm just not going to give either position much credit for being well thought-out or even particularly intentional.
    So, does this mean you think nuclear war would be better, or that the status quo was acceptable? Have you even thought about the alternatives to the Obama era status quo towards North Korea at all?
    Nope, no one in history has ever thought hard about how to solve the North Korea problem. Hang on, let me see if I can find an eyeroll big enough ~

    Some well-meaning observers nonetheless sought to portray the meeting as an opening to a new kind of dialogue between the North and the United States and our South Korean allies. This argument is founded on the perfectly sensible view that dialogue is better than war. But it downplays or deliberately ignores the fact that neither of the two principals have any track record of honoring their commitments, that neither have taken any of the steps necessary to set the stage for a meaningful dialogue (like agreeing to even the definitions of the most basic common vocabulary), nor has either shown any willingness at all to make the central concessions such an on-going exchange might require to be successful as the post-event communique revealed.

    Further, both Trump and Kim have proven themselves completely untrustworthy when it comes to honoring international agreements—Trump most recently with his abrogation of U.S. responsibilities under the terms of the Iran nuclear deal.

    The joint statement signed by the two sides at the conclusion of the brief meetings of the leaders had all the gravitas of a high-school yearbook pledge to stay friends after school was out—thus further underscoring the utter emptiness of the exercise.

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  8. #1648
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    solid brony scenes

  9. #1649
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post

    One small point of order:

    Literally everyone I know who still lives in SA wants either a Mustang or F-150 but can’t really afford them because only the higher end models go there, and they are mid to high end BMW prices.

    So Fords would sell well there if the exported the cheap versions.
    SA is the only country I've been where I've seen any numbers of Chevrolet's Cruze. I rented one in 2016 and the comments on how bad it is are apt. Not only that, but it has an amazingly unintuitive operation. The fob needs to be pressed twice (or long, can't remember) to unlock the car. I literally spent an afternoon thinking I'd locked myself out of it and trying to get back in.
    Будь смиренным, будь кротким, не заботься о тленном
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  10. #1650
    walrus's Avatar
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    “The horror of life in North Korea is so complete that citizens pay bribes to government officials to have themselves exported abroad as slaves. They would rather be slaves than live in North Korea. . . . Leaders imprison their people under the banner of tyranny, fascism and oppression. . . . Citizens spy on fellow citizens, their homes are subject to search at any time, and their every action is subject to surveillance. In place of a vibrant society, the people of North Korea are bombarded by state propaganda practically every waking hour of the day. North Korea is a country ruled as a cult.”

    -Donald Trump
      Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    But islamism IS a product of class warfare. Rich white countries come into developing brown dictatorships, wreck the leadership, infrastructure and economy and then act all surprised that religious fanaticism is on the rise.
    Also:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenta View Post
    walrus isnt a bad poster.
    Quote Originally Posted by cullnean View Post
    also i like walrus.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmaNutin View Post
    Yer a hoot

  11. #1651
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebomby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post

    One small point of order:

    Literally everyone I know who still lives in SA wants either a Mustang or F-150 but can’t really afford them because only the higher end models go there, and they are mid to high end BMW prices.

    So Fords would sell well there if the exported the cheap versions.
    SA is the only country I've been where I've seen any numbers of Chevrolet's Cruze. I rented one in 2016 and the comments on how bad it is are apt. Not only that, but it has an amazingly unintuitive operation. The fob needs to be pressed twice (or long, can't remember) to unlock the car. I literally spent an afternoon thinking I'd locked myself out of it and trying to get back in.
    Chevy Cruze. Not even once.

    Luckily my regular rental place has challengers...
    meh

  12. #1652
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    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    “The horror of life in North Korea is so complete that citizens pay bribes to government officials to have themselves exported abroad as slaves. They would rather be slaves than live in North Korea. . . . Leaders imprison their people under the banner of tyranny, fascism and oppression. . . . Citizens spy on fellow citizens, their homes are subject to search at any time, and their every action is subject to surveillance. In place of a vibrant society, the people of North Korea are bombarded by state propaganda practically every waking hour of the day. North Korea is a country ruled as a cult.”

    -Donald Trump

    Speaking in a wood-paneled office aboard Air Force One, Baier put it to the US president that Kim was “a killer. He’s executing people.”

    Trump replied by praising Kim as a “tough guy. Hey, when you take over a country, tough country, with tough people, and you take it over from your father, I don’t care who you are, what you are, how much of an advantage you have – if you can do that at 27 years old, that’s one in 10,000 could do that.”

    Trump went on: “So he’s a very smart guy, he’s a great negotiator and I think we understand each other.”
    Baier, sounding taken aback by the president’s flippant response, pressed Trump on the issue: “But he’s still done some really bad things.”
    To which Trump said: “Yeah, but so have a lot of other people done some really bad things. I could go through a lot of nations where a lot of bad things were done.”



    This has to be the worst timeline.
      Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    But islamism IS a product of class warfare. Rich white countries come into developing brown dictatorships, wreck the leadership, infrastructure and economy and then act all surprised that religious fanaticism is on the rise.
    Also:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenta View Post
    walrus isnt a bad poster.
    Quote Originally Posted by cullnean View Post
    also i like walrus.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmaNutin View Post
    Yer a hoot

  13. #1653
    Djan Seriy Anaplian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    “The horror of life in North Korea is so complete that citizens pay bribes to government officials to have themselves exported abroad as slaves. They would rather be slaves than live in North Korea. . . . Leaders imprison their people under the banner of tyranny, fascism and oppression. . . . Citizens spy on fellow citizens, their homes are subject to search at any time, and their every action is subject to surveillance. In place of a vibrant society, the people of North Korea are bombarded by state propaganda practically every waking hour of the day. North Korea is a country ruled as a cult.”

    -Donald Trump

    Speaking in a wood-paneled office aboard Air Force One, Baier put it to the US president that Kim was “a killer. He’s executing people.”

    Trump replied by praising Kim as a “tough guy. Hey, when you take over a country, tough country, with tough people, and you take it over from your father, I don’t care who you are, what you are, how much of an advantage you have – if you can do that at 27 years old, that’s one in 10,000 could do that.”

    Trump went on: “So he’s a very smart guy, he’s a great negotiator and I think we understand each other.”
    Baier, sounding taken aback by the president’s flippant response, pressed Trump on the issue: “But he’s still done some really bad things.”
    To which Trump said: “Yeah, but so have a lot of other people done some really bad things. I could go through a lot of nations where a lot of bad things were done.”



    This has to be the worst timeline.
    We need to get the almanac back!

  14. #1654
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    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    “The horror of life in North Korea is so complete that citizens pay bribes to government officials to have themselves exported abroad as slaves. They would rather be slaves than live in North Korea. . . . Leaders imprison their people under the banner of tyranny, fascism and oppression. . . . Citizens spy on fellow citizens, their homes are subject to search at any time, and their every action is subject to surveillance. In place of a vibrant society, the people of North Korea are bombarded by state propaganda practically every waking hour of the day. North Korea is a country ruled as a cult.”

    -Donald Trump

    Speaking in a wood-paneled office aboard Air Force One, Baier put it to the US president that Kim was “a killer. He’s executing people.”

    Trump replied by praising Kim as a “tough guy. Hey, when you take over a country, tough country, with tough people, and you take it over from your father, I don’t care who you are, what you are, how much of an advantage you have – if you can do that at 27 years old, that’s one in 10,000 could do that.”

    Trump went on: “So he’s a very smart guy, he’s a great negotiator and I think we understand each other.”
    Baier, sounding taken aback by the president’s flippant response, pressed Trump on the issue: “But he’s still done some really bad things.”
    To which Trump said: “Yeah, but so have a lot of other people done some really bad things. I could go through a lot of nations where a lot of bad things were done.”



    This has to be the worst timeline.
    wait? wut? what is that source?

    I can totaly see it as real but still want a source.
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  15. #1655
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  16. #1656
    Sacul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    wow....
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  17. #1657
    Caldrion Dosto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    wow....
    As i understand it the "agreement" is one A4 page with 4 items on, all very loosely worded.

    This is by Trump hailed as a "comprehensive" and "very good". but the Iran deal of 159 A4 pages where everything is worded in detail and clear obligations and consequences is deemed "the worst ever signed".

  18. #1658

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caldrion Dosto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    wow....
    As i understand it the "agreement" is one A4 page with 4 items on, all very loosely worded.
    And did not improve over previous aggreements, the ones NK happily ignored. Just that this time around the greatest dealmaker on earth throwed in some goodies from the U.S., that every former U.S. president involved in NK negotiations avoided to give.

    #TheArtOfTheDeal #BestDealEvar #IDontCareAboutTyrants

  19. #1659
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    The air attack warning sounds like
    This is the sound.

    When you hear the air attack warning
    You and your family must take cover

    Let's go

    When two clowns sit down to talk
    A point is all you can score
    Score no more
    Score no more
    When two clowns sit down to talk
    A point is all you can score
    Fighting for the black gas

    Supreme Leader No. 1
    A living God man's son
    God man's son
    On the right America
    The great deal-maker-yeah
    Fighting for the black gas

    You know

    Choking on the black gas

    Switch off your brains
    Switch off and feel
    I'm working on winning-yeah
    Giving America back the good times
    Selling it out-out
    I'm fighting for the black gas

    Tell them that you're winning
    Make it great again
    Fire and Fury

    Listen to the voices promise
    Follow me
    Listen to the voices lie
    Follow me

    We got two clowns
    They’ve got the bomb
    They’ve got the bomb-yeah
    Threatening to use it on each other-now

    Are we living in a world
    Where spin and image are the new Gods?
    Yeah!

    Because if those two clowns go to war
    A point is all you can score

  20. #1660
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caldrion Dosto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    wow....
    As i understand it the "agreement" is one A4 page with 4 items on, all very loosely worded.

    This is by Trump hailed as a "comprehensive" and "very good". but the Iran deal of 159 A4 pages where everything is worded in detail and clear obligations and consequences is deemed "the worst ever signed".
    We've already established Trump is the kind of weak spined sniveler who will say anything to be liked by whomever is in the room. I'm not sure what others where expecting but this is exactly the kind of vague nonsense I expected.
    meh

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