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Thread: Euro refugee crisis

  1. #21
    Movember 2012 Elriche Oshego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    [USA]

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elriche Oshego View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
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    I find this extremely racist and insensitive.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Elriche Oshego View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    [USA]
    FTFY

  4. #24
    Super VIP Dot Kransthow's Avatar
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    I'm glad I don't live in europe

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortior View Post
    [Sweden]

    Based on the prognosis from a few weeks ago the _increased cost_ in addition to previous prognosis for all migrants is 7 billion for 2015, 29 billion for 2016 and 41 billion for 2017.
    I applaude your country for being so free/open in its information about the total costs. In Holland the government just flat out refuses to give complete numbers. What they did say is that the extra cost for the new influx for 2015+2016 will be 1 bill euro's (estimated).
    So far we stand at 50k new immigrants.

    Turkey is getting 3 bill. euro's to keep as many immigrants in their borders as possible thanks to Mutti Merkel.

    To make my personal opinion clear: I would love to take in all 3 million+ Syrian refugees if it would only be organized in a decent way. This fuckup will just cause a new wave of proto-fascism.
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  6. #26
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    Biggest issue for us would be proper integration. It's political suicide to talk about working towards integrating asylum seekers as opposed to putting them in refugee housing and going trough multi year procedures to see if they can stay or not.

    Ideally I think giving them spread out housing and a job, even if that has to be done via some roundabout way because they aren't officially citizens is a lot better in the long run then putting them all in one place with nothing to do.

    Of course there are issues with that, because housing is always an issue and in some sectors jobs are scarce because of cutbacks.

    But the way NL, and I presume most other countries are dealing with it seems wrong. I much rather see these refugees become contributing members of society then a long drawn out money sink out of mercy.


    As a side note there is an interesting video about refugees entering the EU and why they do this in rickety boats as well as a video specifically about Syria. They are on the gapminder YouTube channel. I'd link them but on phone.



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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by roigon View Post
    (NL)

    Biggest issue for us would be proper integration. It's political suicide to talk about working towards integrating asylum seekers as opposed to putting them in refugee housing and going trough multi year procedures to see if they can stay or not.

    Ideally I think giving them spread out housing and a job, even if that has to be done via some roundabout way because they aren't officially citizens is a lot better in the long run then putting them all in one place with nothing to do.

    Of course there are issues with that, because housing is always an issue and in some sectors jobs are scarce because of cutbacks.

    But the way NL, and I presume most other countries are dealing with it seems wrong. I much rather see these refugees become contributing members of society then a long drawn out money sink out of mercy.


    As a side note there is an interesting video about refugees entering the EU and why they do this in rickety boats as well as a video specifically about Syria. They are on the gapminder YouTube channel. I'd link them but on phone.



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    To be sure, if Europe is gonna take them in anyway, just let them come by the planeload.

  8. #28
    Sacul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by roigon View Post
    (NL)

    Biggest issue for us would be proper integration. It's political suicide to talk about working towards integrating asylum seekers as opposed to putting them in refugee housing and going trough multi year procedures to see if they can stay or not.

    Ideally I think giving them spread out housing and a job, even if that has to be done via some roundabout way because they aren't officially citizens is a lot better in the long run then putting them all in one place with nothing to do.

    Of course there are issues with that, because housing is always an issue and in some sectors jobs are scarce because of cutbacks.

    But the way NL, and I presume most other countries are dealing with it seems wrong. I much rather see these refugees become contributing members of society then a long drawn out money sink out of mercy.


    As a side note there is an interesting video about refugees entering the EU and why they do this in rickety boats as well as a video specifically about Syria. They are on the gapminder YouTube channel. I'd link them but on phone.



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    To be sure, if Europe is gonna take them in anyway, just let them come by the planeload.
    The EU doesnt want the 'numbers/masses' so thats why they make it difficult. They want to cherry pick immigrants like Canada and Australia but they dont have the backbone in legislature to implement that EU wide.
    The incompetence of the EU technocrates is demonstrated by their plan to distribute the refugees all over the EU a few months ago which was promptly blocked by a majority of the new EU member states. And by blocked i mean they said NO.

    Holland said we will take a few more......
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  9. #29
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    The EU doesnt want the 'numbers/masses' so thats why they make it difficult. They want to cherry pick immigrants like Canada and Australia but they dont have the backbone in legislature to implement that EU wide.
    The incompetence of the EU technocrates is demonstrated by their plan to distribute the refugees all over the EU a few months ago which was promptly blocked by a majority of the new EU member states. And by blocked i mean they said NO.

    Holland said we will take a few more......
    The idea that people can be divvied up among different areas like a budget or goods seems...well...demeaning. At least to me it does.
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  10. #30
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    Technocrats mate....
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  11. #31
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    [Poland]

    I think we shouldn't be massive asshats and accept them. Shame I'm in the minority, everybody is screaming about terrorists, possible disease outbreaks, how migrants are human trash and want to rape our women and steal our jobs. Neofascists are coming out of the woodwork and couple of days ago they burned a jew puppet on Wrocław's city square after an anti-immigration/hate rally. I don't get it, but that's their stupid ideology for you. We also recently elected bible thumping, corrupt xenophobes into power so there's that too.
    Last edited by Venec; November 21 2015 at 05:50:50 AM.

  12. #32
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    [UK]

    We and the US (and a little bit the other allies like france, germany, etc) caused this. Why now the cost shows up on our doorstep demanding our help are we unwilling to give it?

    European imperialism still a thing, still going horribly wrong, even when non-euros do it (hello, 'murica).

    In other news, migrant workers are notably better at adapting to demands of their employers, and in a notable number of cases work harder, too. They are also willing to do all this for less than a local. Meanwhile, these same people often have no interest in forming a local community other than one of them and their fellow migrants from the appropriate region/country/ethnicity/whatever.

    Capitalism and free markets are completely unable to deal with this. No other functional system exists other than dictatorship. I'd suggest we try that but have you SEEN our prime (swine) minister?

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    [Poland]

    I think we shouldn't be massive asshats and accept them. Shame I'm in the minority, everybody is screaming about terrorists, possible disease outbreaks, how migrants are human trash and want to rape our women and steal our jobs. Neofascists are coming out of the woodwork and couple of days ago they burned a jew puppet on Wrocław's city square after an anti-immigration/hate rally. I don't get it, but that's their stupid ideology for you. We also recently elected bible thumping, corrupt xenophobes into power so there's that too.
    You can complain about it now, but ten years later, when/if you have children, you will look back at this and thank those evil men. It's such evil men that will prevent your country from being destroyed from within, as the compassionate good women and men of Sweden, UK and France are doing to theirs.

    But, the way things are going, it may never get that bad in Germany or Netherlands, as the "Neo-fascists" are coming out of the woodwork. As more refugees come in and the ancillary social adjustments become harder to ignore, the popular sentiment will swing hard.

    Someone mentioned on this or the other thread, that this refugee crisis will revitalize something that many thought was extinct. I agree, and I think tensions are set to heat up to a level not seen since the Balkan crisis. Perhaps even beyond that.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody_Holme View Post
    [UK]

    We and the US (and a little bit the other allies like france, germany, etc) caused this.
    ...
    In other news, migrant workers are notably better at adapting to demands of their employers, and in a notable number of cases work harder, too. They are also willing to do all this for less than a local. Meanwhile, these same people often have no interest in forming a local community other than one of them and their fellow migrants from the appropriate region/country/ethnicity/whatever.
    Our government did this, with support or acceptance from yours (euros). In the end, we as citizens are all ultimately responsible for it.

    And these are relatively good times. What do you think will happen when the good standard of living becomes untenable during an economic downturn, when your wages, jobs even, are being threatened by competition with these migrants? No matter how you look at it, the more people come in, it can only get worse.

  15. #35
    Pegging Specialist Donor indi's Avatar
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    [Netherlands]

    What may be (somewhat) saving us so far is that community councils are refusing to set up mass refugee camps. Instead they are offering small scale solutions, meaning that the groups (with notable exceptions, and that's where it derails) are not getting too big. Local population finds it easier to deal with smaller groups and I think the refugees as well. That's the short term stuff.

    Longer term I see a lot of problems. Many people are very welcoming right now. I bet they won't be so much in a year or two. Housing in the Netherlands has been a huge issue ever since the second World War (incompetents...). There is not enough affordable housing for lower incomes. (It's not that much of a problem if you got moneyz.) Asylum seekers who have got residency are putting a lot of pressure on this already bad situation - and that's the ones approved long before this mess started. So, soon people will see that their children have to wait 12 years instead of 8 or so now for a decent house in areas like Amsterdam. They're not going to accept that and they will forget they welcomed these people now.

    Then there's the fact that from the look of it the incoming Syrians are indeed not the poorest kind. I'm sure they want to work, etc. What they probably don't realise is that it takes the Dutch system years to sort them out. Years during which they are not really allowed to work or go to school. They'll be bored out of their minds. Once they do have their residency permit, they will still need to learn the language and allllll the rest. It's doubtful that their doctor certification is entirely equal. Even if it were, you're not allowed to go out and doctor people until you know the details of a language (logically speaking that's justified - if a patient comes in with pain, you do need to understand the difference between 'sharp and intermittent' and 'dull and continuous'). So most of these people will end up on welfare or in lower skilled jobs. They're lucky if their children do get jobs as lawyers and doctors. Another fun fact, a lot of them aren't Syrians. I fully expect there's a lot of people in the group of refugees/immigrants who lack qualifications. Those stand even less chance of earning their way. That will erode support.

    One of our politicians (who I usually consider less competent than Quackbot) suggested that we change our stance on these refugees. Meaning: we do not aim for integration and long term stay. Instead we offer them a safe have for a few years (including basic amenities and medical care) but it is understood they must go back. That idea had some merit, in my opinion. Certainly the numbers that Germany and Sweden are dealing with are staggering.

    PS I would appreciate if people actually put a stop to Saudi Arabia's export and financing of extremist Islam. That would solve more problems than bombing the hell out of a bit of Syria.

  16. #36
    Venec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    [Poland]

    I think we shouldn't be massive asshats and accept them. Shame I'm in the minority, everybody is screaming about terrorists, possible disease outbreaks, how migrants are human trash and want to rape our women and steal our jobs. Neofascists are coming out of the woodwork and couple of days ago they burned a jew puppet on Wrocław's city square after an anti-immigration/hate rally. I don't get it, but that's their stupid ideology for you. We also recently elected bible thumping, corrupt xenophobes into power so there's that too.
    You can complain about it now, but ten years later, when/if you have children, you will look back at this and thank those evil men. It's such evil men that will prevent your country from being destroyed from within, as the compassionate good women and men of Sweden, UK and France are doing to theirs.

    But, the way things are going, it may never get that bad in Germany or Netherlands, as the "Neo-fascists" are coming out of the woodwork. As more refugees come in and the ancillary social adjustments become harder to ignore, the popular sentiment will swing hard.

    Someone mentioned on this or the other thread, that this refugee crisis will revitalize something that many thought was extinct. I agree, and I think tensions are set to heat up to a level not seen since the Balkan crisis. Perhaps even beyond that.
    No, I won't thank them for turning my country into even a bigger steaming pile of xenophobia and bigotry, thank you very much. It frankly disgusts me. Don't overdramatize, countries and cultures change over time. How we deal with the tensions that will arrive will say a lot about our morals.

    And don't quote on quote the fascists, the things they say are downright vile, often backed with radical view of catholicism, which is bigoted from the get go.
    Last edited by Venec; November 21 2015 at 01:15:55 PM.

  17. #37
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    Boy it's a good job we never let those Irish in. Or those Poles. Or Italians. Or Jews. Or Chinese. Or Indians. Can you imagine what a drag they'd have been on our economy?

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  18. #38
    Movember 2012Donor ctrlchris's Avatar
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruri View Post
    [AMERICUH]

      Spoiler:


    Boy it's a good job we never let those Irish in. Or those Poles. Or Italians. Or Jews. Or Chinese. Or Indians. Can you imagine what a drag they'd have been on our economy?
    The difference between Europe and the USA historically is that you had 'room/space' to welcome those people. Your picture is probably from the 20s last century. If you would live in Europe for just a month i would guess you change your mind.
    As it is the EU has a shit load of problems with their own citizens, housing, jobs, social services, etc.

    I am not saying we shouldnt take in refugees but at this moment there is no structure or policy (which we need desparatly).
    They come in by the multiK and its OMFGRABBLERABBLE, proto-fascist gets more votesRABBLERABBLE.
    Holland is as of now the only country able to house/shelter all of the influx. That means no immigrants sleeping under a bridge. 2 days ago politicians were talking about that being a option because they cant manage the influx.

    For Holland thats a very very big disgrace.
    (This is coming from a person who works in mental health care and also with domestic homeless people).
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by roigon View Post
    (NL)

    Biggest issue for us would be proper integration. It's political suicide to talk about working towards integrating asylum seekers as opposed to putting them in refugee housing and going trough multi year procedures to see if they can stay or not.

    Ideally I think giving them spread out housing and a job, even if that has to be done via some roundabout way because they aren't officially citizens is a lot better in the long run then putting them all in one place with nothing to do.

    Of course there are issues with that, because housing is always an issue and in some sectors jobs are scarce because of cutbacks.

    But the way NL, and I presume most other countries are dealing with it seems wrong. I much rather see these refugees become contributing members of society then a long drawn out money sink out of mercy.


    As a side note there is an interesting video about refugees entering the EU and why they do this in rickety boats as well as a video specifically about Syria. They are on the gapminder YouTube channel. I'd link them but on phone.



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    To be sure, if Europe is gonna take them in anyway, just let them come by the planeload.
    As has been said, making the journey difficult, dangerous and expensive is very much by design. They EU pretty much wants loads of them to die on their way here, as it will deter others from coming.
    Early on there was some talk about allowing asylum seekers to apply from abroad, but that idea was quickly canned once they realised that all Syrians currently staying in Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, etc. would be doing so.

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