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Thread: The Shitposting Thread

  1. #7941
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    I feel like I should say that EVE isn't dying btw

    it's pretty much the same as it's been for the last few years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  2. #7942
    Dirk Magnum's Avatar
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    Removing local would be the buff of all buffs for suicide ganking. But what about the downsides?
    What would anyone propose change about D Scan if local was removed? Would it associate pilots with ships?
    What happens when the gaming press reports that Eve removed part of the social dynamic from their PvP MMO because their players are too risk averse and PvP is too hard to find when local is an intel tool?

  3. #7943
    Marlona Sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    And there still is problems with local. Just remove it already, CCP. Give it same local as wormhole space, sit back and watch the fireworks unfold. But this should have happened a decade ago to be honest.
    As you well know, it would need to be accompanied with other changes. At minimum, removing cynos from cloaked ships. And other cloak nerfs as well even no active scanning or probing while closely.
    For sure, make some logical changes, but get that free intel out of here. Could always make some interesting and dynamic changes to how the d scan works. CCP just needs to decide that they are removing local and then sit down with a smart team and decide how can they make such a decision become a fun and rewarding experience for the player base. And above all immediately dismiss the usual rabble of players who are only interested in keeping their space 100% safe. Tell them to fuck right off.

  4. #7944
    Meester's Avatar
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    Not removing local but a step in the right direction anway, CCP are removing chat bubbles - Chat Bubbles To Be Disabled On 2018/04/05

  5. #7945
    Clovnea's Avatar
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    How did the chat bubbles work btw?

  6. #7946
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    It was almost instantly successful in persuading me to open up the Options menu and disable convos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  7. #7947
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    I feel like I should say that EVE isn't dying btw

    it's pretty much the same as it's been for the last few years.
    I haven't played for the past few years so it's as dead to me as it was before.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  8. #7948
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    CCPS lack of giving enough of a fuck about botting, rmt and cheating was the thing that really made me become bitter about eve. Just cant give enough of a fuck about it any more. same old same old.
    Ultimately, the people who do that shit cheat themselves. As long as CCP keep enough of a lid on it that it doesn't become obtrusive to me, I just ignore it.
    Good for you. Ultimately the cheats dont just cheat themselves. They cheat those who dont cheat. It was blatant, rampant and obvious back in 2011 and i tried to ignore it. IOt started to negatively effect my playstyle. I saw the vast swathes of nulsec space entirely filled with bots and nothing but bots. Was about 10 whole regio ns which were bot farms in their entirety, back then. For years and years nothing was done. I even got that groon forum dump with them openly RMTing and noone was banned. Eventually that just makes a player go "nah" because clearly some CCP employees are doing mass rmt bot farms on the sly.

  9. #7949
    Meester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    It was almost instantly successful in persuading me to open up the Options menu and disable convos.
    Well luckily for you CCP has now disabled convos by removing all chat channels in their efforts to remove chat bubbles [they are fixing right now btw].

  10. #7950

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meester View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    It was almost instantly successful in persuading me to open up the Options menu and disable convos.
    Well luckily for you CCP has now disabled convos by removing all chat channels in their efforts to remove chat bubbles [they are fixing right now btw].
    Now they only need to remove all interactions between players in space and in the market and then the toxic playerbase can't harm new players anymore!

  11. #7951
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    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post

    Now they only need to remove all interactions between players in space and in the market and then the toxic playerbase can't harm new players anymore!
    Only about 10% [if that] of the playerbase is toxic, gigx and The Mittani etc do not wholly comprise 100%.

  12. #7952
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    CCPS lack of giving enough of a fuck about botting, rmt and cheating was the thing that really made me become bitter about eve. Just cant give enough of a fuck about it any more. same old same old.
    Ultimately, the people who do that shit cheat themselves. As long as CCP keep enough of a lid on it that it doesn't become obtrusive to me, I just ignore it.
    Good for you. Ultimately the cheats dont just cheat themselves. They cheat those who dont cheat. It was blatant, rampant and obvious back in 2011 and i tried to ignore it. IOt started to negatively effect my playstyle. I saw the vast swathes of nulsec space entirely filled with bots and nothing but bots. Was about 10 whole regio ns which were bot farms in their entirety, back then. For years and years nothing was done. I even got that groon forum dump with them openly RMTing and noone was banned. Eventually that just makes a player go "nah" because clearly some CCP employees are doing mass rmt bot farms on the sly.
    I've never seen any evidence that CCP employees were doing mass RMT bot farms on the sly, but CCP clearly condoned the practice within EVE as a whole.

    And, yes, that did (and does) affect everyone else. That's what you get if you build your game around a shared, open, economy.

    And, obviously, that's a problem when it comes to the viability of the game in the long run. Because it's effects pop up everywhere in the game. And players, young and old, can, indeed, only ignore those for only so long.

    What's the point of sticking to a game that you know is slanted against you through cheats and bots? When there are plenty of alternatives out there that do provide a level playing field ...

    I would rather have expected CCP to have done something about this by now. I'm not surprised they haven't though ...

    What happened to that guy they brought in to deal with all this? I remember ebullient blog and forum posts from this former maker of Christian websites ...
    Tell us of these bot free MMOs
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  13. #7953
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meester View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post

    Now they only need to remove all interactions between players in space and in the market and then the toxic playerbase can't harm new players anymore!
    Only about 10% [if that] of the playerbase is toxic, gigx and The Mittani etc do not wholly comprise 100%.
    Much, much less actually.
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  14. #7954
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post

    I've never seen any evidence that CCP employees were doing mass RMT bot farms on the sly, but CCP clearly condoned the practice within EVE as a whole.

    And, yes, that did (and does) affect everyone else. That's what you get if you build your game around a shared, open, economy.

    And, obviously, that's a problem when it comes to the viability of the game in the long run. Because it's effects pop up everywhere in the game. And players, young and old, can, indeed, only ignore those for only so long.

    What's the point of sticking to a game that you know is slanted against you through cheats and bots? When there are plenty of alternatives out there that do provide a level playing field ...

    I would rather have expected CCP to have done something about this by now. I'm not surprised they haven't though ...

    What happened to that guy they brought in to deal with all this? I remember ebullient blog and forum posts from this former maker of Christian websites ...
    /me vaguely remembers a little old IA tale of a few good men who got a little caught running ice bots while teaming up with a player initiative at the time along the lines of kickback scheme with a ton of "save high sec" marketing based on suicide tactics :P

    That scheme still bumping miners today, but that said, it's been years since that glitch. Frankly, eve time did go down quite a bit at CCP.


    I'm not sure it's a case of condoning RMT / bots though. RMT is something which has always been a big thing for CCP, but attention for it did suffer heavily during the years of post-startup nepotism. Botting however, I don't think it's ever been a case of condoning, much more a matter of stupidity due to lack of attention - and lack of metrics based insight (or prioritising focus). Sure, practical result is a perception of condoning matters, but perception versus reality and all that.

    Either way, attention is mostly cyclic, but while it's gotten better due to improvements in tracking proper metrics and (part of eggnog's legacy) impact studies what strikes me the most is that it's a lot like a tech race in terms of CCP losing that race. Combined with lack of attention for what was once introduced as a way of shifting workload on players (reporting).

    There was a point where it became clear that a stupid amount of work would have to be done in order to improve general health of matters, but that did coincide with the upstairs people stuck in trauma and ipo's. So, this being Iceland, the man who was brought in to solve a number of things got another wall put in front of him and that was really that, being an outsider.


    Crux of it all is that yes, it is an open and shared interaction system, so yes everything always has a measurable effect. If you leave an experiment running you're bound to get interesting results at some point anyway, if you have something rotten in the kettle that means the soup will become sour. But it is not like CCP has any real capability to consistantly keep things in check. Let's be honest, at minimum because CCP's attention isn't primarily on EVE as a product, the way customers view it. So by default it is cyclic, and that means that shit goes sour by default and then once people taste it CCP adds sugar and cleans it up. In many ways it is perfectly understandable, but it's also an approach which doesn't really recognise the nature of the system itself. Behaviour is a contaminant. Which is why at minimum you need to run short cycles of cleanup, maintain consistant insight in tech evolution, and have PR stuff ready for when players start vomiting.

    The one thing CCP has improved on is that last bit. I suppose in terms of historic perspective that's an improvement.

    Here's the thing though, while it should be obvious that the soup can go sour and that yes it will go sour if the cook doesn't do his job once in a while, botting is primarily a perception problem exactly because it's a topic in that arena of behavioural contaminants / stimuli. Effective impact isn't linear, it's much more along the lines of ripples in game theory. Which is why CCP can get away with not having a consistant cleanup activity. But it is also why most players do not notice actual effects.

    That makes the primary red flag for CCP not the presence of bots, or the impact models of bots over time, but the presence of players presenting a perception problem of "omg bots everywhere".
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  15. #7955
    Donor Verite Rendition's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    what strikes me the most is that it's a lot like a tech race in terms of CCP losing that race.
    It's only going to get worse, as well. Even if CCP could block people hooking directly into the client, neural networking-backed computer vision is improving at a rapid enough pace that all the tech being used for self-driving cars can be applied to bots. They won't play the game exactly like a human, but they can be trained to come close; close enough that other than the hours played, it would be very difficult to tell them apart from a human carebear.
    Tranquility (EVE) Influence Map
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  16. #7956
    Donor Verite Rendition's Avatar
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    See?! The bot uprising has already begun!
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    Life is absurd, but with a little effort we can make it completely ridiculous

  17. #7957
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Anything that increases logged in player counts is beneficial to CCP.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  18. #7958
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Verite Rendition View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    what strikes me the most is that it's a lot like a tech race in terms of CCP losing that race.
    It's only going to get worse, as well. Even if CCP could block people hooking directly into the client, neural networking-backed computer vision is improving at a rapid enough pace that all the tech being used for self-driving cars can be applied to bots. They won't play the game exactly like a human, but they can be trained to come close; close enough that other than the hours played, it would be very difficult to tell them apart from a human carebear.
    I'd wager that the vast majority of bots in EVE will never even come close to this kind of sophistication. I suspect that it is, still, pretty trivial to catch sufficiently large amounts of bots regularly from simple automated log scanning/analysis. Wasn't this Eggnog's brief years and years ago? Had CCP been interested in actually doing this, automated tools for doing this should have been deployed ages ago as well. The thing is: they're neither interested, nor competent.
    That pretty much died a quiet death right about the same time that some nitwits managed to present a vision based on completely and utterly fucked up confusion on implementation of game theory concepts. It's one thing to try and be awesome by breathing buzzwords, but when you actually start mixing up definitions it gets massively messy quickly. Anyway, there's been expansion of tools, but yeah, that is not the same as expanding toolsets.

    But hey, remember, this is the same company where people who actually work the product don't even get to hear anymore how - as an example - an awesome management vision managed to confuse finite and infinite games concepts for three years in a row :P No worries, same people who still can't contemplate trading bots using martingale probability theory algorithms.


    Anyway, sophistication is a matter of tech evolution + distribution. The lower the treshold, the quicker and further that goes. That treshold isn't simply the technology, more than half of that calculation is what comes down to the perception challenge. If users of a system perceive methods to be "ok", the more those methods become facilitated. There's already folks who don't game the game any longer, but who actually game the system (making CCP's discrete mechanisms of market buffers and transient transaction interventions irrelevant). I know, you no longer play, but the plex / inject / extract markets are frankly hilarious. Same with gaming low speed commodity tracks where the same "magic" occurs as in the now very old days of when npc trade goods were still a thing.

    Sophistication is not a hurdle, but an actor. CCP seems to confuse or miscommunicate these things.


    For the time being it's a simple situation either way: botting is only a problem in terms of an intervention cycle becoming required if and when there is sufficient traction among the customer base to make it an acute (as in, capable of potentially influencing outward bound messaging) perception problem.
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  19. #7959
    Donor Verite Rendition's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Verite Rendition View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    what strikes me the most is that it's a lot like a tech race in terms of CCP losing that race.
    It's only going to get worse, as well. Even if CCP could block people hooking directly into the client, neural networking-backed computer vision is improving at a rapid enough pace that all the tech being used for self-driving cars can be applied to bots. They won't play the game exactly like a human, but they can be trained to come close; close enough that other than the hours played, it would be very difficult to tell them apart from a human carebear.
    I'd wager that the vast majority of bots in EVE will never even come close to this kind of sophistication. I suspect that it is, still, pretty trivial to catch sufficiently large amounts of bots regularly from simple automated log scanning/analysis. Wasn't this Eggnog's brief years and years ago? Had CCP been interested in actually doing this, automated tools for doing this should have been deployed ages ago as well. The thing is: they're neither interested, nor competent.
    You're not wrong, of course. However if CCP does pursue the arms race, then that's going to be the end game. There isn't going to be an effective counter for that complex of an AI.
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  20. #7960

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    Botting is never going to go away as long as the methods to gather resources to do anything in the game are oriented towards botting-like behavior. For example, mining or running the same L4 missions over and over. Doesn't matter how aggressive / effective one is at punishing botting.

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