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Thread: The Shitposting Thread

  1. #7961
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verite Rendition View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    what strikes me the most is that it's a lot like a tech race in terms of CCP losing that race.
    It's only going to get worse, as well. Even if CCP could block people hooking directly into the client, neural networking-backed computer vision is improving at a rapid enough pace that all the tech being used for self-driving cars can be applied to bots. They won't play the game exactly like a human, but they can be trained to come close; close enough that other than the hours played, it would be very difficult to tell them apart from a human carebear.
    I'd wager that the vast majority of bots in EVE will never even come close to this kind of sophistication. I suspect that it is, still, pretty trivial to catch sufficiently large amounts of bots regularly from simple automated log scanning/analysis. Wasn't this Eggnog's brief years and years ago? Had CCP been interested in actually doing this, automated tools for doing this should have been deployed ages ago as well. The thing is: they're neither interested, nor competent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  2. #7962
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    Anything that increases logged in player counts is beneficial to CCP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  3. #7963
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Verite Rendition View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    what strikes me the most is that it's a lot like a tech race in terms of CCP losing that race.
    It's only going to get worse, as well. Even if CCP could block people hooking directly into the client, neural networking-backed computer vision is improving at a rapid enough pace that all the tech being used for self-driving cars can be applied to bots. They won't play the game exactly like a human, but they can be trained to come close; close enough that other than the hours played, it would be very difficult to tell them apart from a human carebear.
    I'd wager that the vast majority of bots in EVE will never even come close to this kind of sophistication. I suspect that it is, still, pretty trivial to catch sufficiently large amounts of bots regularly from simple automated log scanning/analysis. Wasn't this Eggnog's brief years and years ago? Had CCP been interested in actually doing this, automated tools for doing this should have been deployed ages ago as well. The thing is: they're neither interested, nor competent.
    That pretty much died a quiet death right about the same time that some nitwits managed to present a vision based on completely and utterly fucked up confusion on implementation of game theory concepts. It's one thing to try and be awesome by breathing buzzwords, but when you actually start mixing up definitions it gets massively messy quickly. Anyway, there's been expansion of tools, but yeah, that is not the same as expanding toolsets.

    But hey, remember, this is the same company where people who actually work the product don't even get to hear anymore how - as an example - an awesome management vision managed to confuse finite and infinite games concepts for three years in a row :P No worries, same people who still can't contemplate trading bots using martingale probability theory algorithms.


    Anyway, sophistication is a matter of tech evolution + distribution. The lower the treshold, the quicker and further that goes. That treshold isn't simply the technology, more than half of that calculation is what comes down to the perception challenge. If users of a system perceive methods to be "ok", the more those methods become facilitated. There's already folks who don't game the game any longer, but who actually game the system (making CCP's discrete mechanisms of market buffers and transient transaction interventions irrelevant). I know, you no longer play, but the plex / inject / extract markets are frankly hilarious. Same with gaming low speed commodity tracks where the same "magic" occurs as in the now very old days of when npc trade goods were still a thing.

    Sophistication is not a hurdle, but an actor. CCP seems to confuse or miscommunicate these things.


    For the time being it's a simple situation either way: botting is only a problem in terms of an intervention cycle becoming required if and when there is sufficient traction among the customer base to make it an acute (as in, capable of potentially influencing outward bound messaging) perception problem.
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
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  4. #7964
    Donor Verite Rendition's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Verite Rendition View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    what strikes me the most is that it's a lot like a tech race in terms of CCP losing that race.
    It's only going to get worse, as well. Even if CCP could block people hooking directly into the client, neural networking-backed computer vision is improving at a rapid enough pace that all the tech being used for self-driving cars can be applied to bots. They won't play the game exactly like a human, but they can be trained to come close; close enough that other than the hours played, it would be very difficult to tell them apart from a human carebear.
    I'd wager that the vast majority of bots in EVE will never even come close to this kind of sophistication. I suspect that it is, still, pretty trivial to catch sufficiently large amounts of bots regularly from simple automated log scanning/analysis. Wasn't this Eggnog's brief years and years ago? Had CCP been interested in actually doing this, automated tools for doing this should have been deployed ages ago as well. The thing is: they're neither interested, nor competent.
    You're not wrong, of course. However if CCP does pursue the arms race, then that's going to be the end game. There isn't going to be an effective counter for that complex of an AI.
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  5. #7965

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    Botting is never going to go away as long as the methods to gather resources to do anything in the game are oriented towards botting-like behavior. For example, mining or running the same L4 missions over and over. Doesn't matter how aggressive / effective one is at punishing botting.

  6. #7966
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    Rmt was around 21/25 dollah for 1b back when i played hardcore in 2008.
    I has fallen to 4/5 dollah now and it is really hard to find buyers or sellers.

    I was told it was at its peak in 2006 around 30 but i quit from 2009 till 2016 so cant say anything about that time.



    Verstuurd vanaf mijn LENNY2 met Tapatalk
    The foundation has no Mobile Task Force dedicated to the capture and containment of forum trolls.
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  7. #7967
    Straight Hustlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Rmt was around 21/25 dollah for 1b back when i played hardcore in 2008.
    I has fallen to 4/5 dollah now and it is really hard to find buyers or sellers.

    I was told it was at its peak in 2006 around 30 but i quit from 2009 till 2016 so cant say anything about that time.



    Verstuurd vanaf mijn LENNY2 met Tapatalk
    Don't think it ever went that high, gtc/Plex always capped the price

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  8. #7968
    Marlona Sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli Stan View Post
    Botting is never going to go away as long as the methods to gather resources to do anything in the game are oriented towards botting-like behavior. For example, mining or running the same L4 missions over and over. Doesn't matter how aggressive / effective one is at punishing botting.
    Back when Sphere was a thing, I think, the idea was to not appear in local. I believe it was Pandemic Legion and they had a few guys using it and they were murdering bots left and right with it. Now it has been so long and now it is a thing of legend, but I believe it really was real. I remember seeing the kill board stats rolling in and people were dumbfounded on how all these bots were being taken down. Tons and tons of Ravens. A bot depends on access to local. It is everything. Take that away and they will wither and die because no bot has ever been able to compete with another player when it comes to combat and that is what it would find itself in.

    If you take away local and substitute in some new mechanic that mimics the same automatic intel, then what was the point? Now if you put something there that is not automatic then you could be on to something. Speaking of RMT, I remember years ago Vuk Lau RMTed his way to an internet cafe in Syberia - or so the rumor was. Another bullshit story I'm sure just to get everyone's panties in a wad.

    But yeah, remove local. Enjoy the bot and carebear tears. Let space become dangerous again.

  9. #7969
    Fara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli Stan View Post
    Botting is never going to go away as long as the methods to gather resources to do anything in the game are oriented towards botting-like behavior. For example, mining or running the same L4 missions over and over. Doesn't matter how aggressive / effective one is at punishing botting.
    Back when Sphere was a thing, I think, the idea was to not appear in local. I believe it was Pandemic Legion and they had a few guys using it and they were murdering bots left and right with it. Now it has been so long and now it is a thing of legend, but I believe it really was real. I remember seeing the kill board stats rolling in and people were dumbfounded on how all these bots were being taken down. Tons and tons of Ravens. A bot depends on access to local. It is everything. Take that away and they will wither and die because no bot has ever been able to compete with another player when it comes to combat and that is what it would find itself in.
    pls

  10. #7970

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    Somewhere in the forum archives there is pretty good writeup what the Sphere (named after the character monkeysphere) was capable of and how. Like injecting a pos force field as a skill into a character causing the ff to disappear... The way to tell what ships people were inside stations worked in a similar way IIRC.

  11. #7971
    Keckers's Avatar
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    I thought a load of stuff about sphere was a troll?
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  12. #7972

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    The trolling mostly followed after the exploits were known and the banhammer had struck. But Sphere(TM) wasn't the only cheater there has been, the others just didn't reach the meme level. At the time of probe-proof ships I saw few instances where a 1 day old character came and somehow got a 100% hit on the first attempt, never the same character twice but...

  13. #7973
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    Most likely. It certainly made people paranoid AF.

    All I ever injected was warp to zero to get home quicker. Now that has gone I just self destruct. Eve never was geared towards solo / gung-ho.
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    (ಠ_ృ) ゛Lady Spank is the best。゛ ~ Xenuria (ಠ_ృ)

  14. #7974

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    And I'm pretty sure that there are still cheaters around, some people just enjoy finding exploits in MMO code and dicking around, and in game like eve getting any extra information out of the client is usually quite favorable, not to mention performing some actions that aren't allowed normally.

    The original Sphere was used for example seeing what ships the opposing AT teams happened to be before everyone getting teleported to the arena...

  15. #7975
    Fara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    I thought a load of stuff about sphere was a troll?
    yes but you'll always find gullible idiots who believe anything that feeds into some elite hacking tool.

    the truth behind monkeysphere hunting bot ravens is hilariously simple, but nowadays apparently "tons of raven kills" and "crew of hackers all got banned" seems more catchy
    Last edited by Fara; April 11 2018 at 07:40:35 PM.

  16. #7976

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli Stan View Post
    Botting is never going to go away as long as the methods to gather resources to do anything in the game are oriented towards botting-like behavior. For example, mining or running the same L4 missions over and over. Doesn't matter how aggressive / effective one is at punishing botting.
    Back when Sphere was a thing, I think, the idea was to not appear in local. I believe it was Pandemic Legion and they had a few guys using it and they were murdering bots left and right with it. Now it has been so long and now it is a thing of legend, but I believe it really was real. I remember seeing the kill board stats rolling in and people were dumbfounded on how all these bots were being taken down. Tons and tons of Ravens. A bot depends on access to local. It is everything. Take that away and they will wither and die because no bot has ever been able to compete with another player when it comes to combat and that is what it would find itself in.

    If you take away local and substitute in some new mechanic that mimics the same automatic intel, then what was the point? Now if you put something there that is not automatic then you could be on to something. Speaking of RMT, I remember years ago Vuk Lau RMTed his way to an internet cafe in Syberia - or so the rumor was. Another bullshit story I'm sure just to get everyone's panties in a wad.

    But yeah, remove local. Enjoy the bot and carebear tears. Let space become dangerous again.
    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    Somewhere in the forum archives there is pretty good writeup what the Sphere (named after the character monkeysphere) was capable of and how. Like injecting a pos force field as a skill into a character causing the ff to disappear... The way to tell what ships people were inside stations worked in a similar way IIRC.
    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    The trolling mostly followed after the exploits were known and the banhammer had struck. But Sphere(TM) wasn't the only cheater there has been, the others just didn't reach the meme level. At the time of probe-proof ships I saw few instances where a 1 day old character came and somehow got a 100% hit on the first attempt, never the same character twice but...
    Quote Originally Posted by Fara View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    I thought a load of stuff about sphere was a troll?
    yes but you'll always find gullible idiots who believe anything that feeds into some elite hacking tool.

    the truth behind monkeysphere hunting bot ravens is hilariously simple, but nowadays apparently "tons of raven kills" and "crew of hackers all got banned" seems more catchy
    I used to hang out with monkey and friends while that stuff was going on and eventually got given access to the same injections they were using. Some of the stuff I remember includes the no local bit that allowed monkey to get all those kills, AP warp to zero, automatic probing for back when it actually took a bit of RL skill to probe stuff out, checking what ships docked/cloaked characters were in, the injecting of anything as skills that got mentioned, and I'm pretty sure I remember there being a way for you to warp to characters who were cloaked up so you could still nab bots in safe spots even if they managed to make it out of the belt. And that's just the stuff that I remember; I was always too scared to use much of it other than the probing and the AP to zero and this was like six or seven years ago so my memory is a bit fuzzy. Monkey ended up catching a seven(ten?) day ban because CCP was never able to definitively prove that he was using nolocal and karttoon got himself permabanned for using the inject anything module to inject a POS forcefield and abort a baby supercap. I don't think anyone else caught bans for that particular set of exploits, but I'm not 100% certain of it.

    Now bad@botes

  17. #7977
    Marlona Sky's Avatar
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    Remember all that stuff makes me feel old.

  18. #7978

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    IIRC it wasn't an abortion that got people with the ff "skill" injection, but stealing a unpiloted titan from a ff. Done minutes before DT so that the ff would be back after the deed and no one would see what happened.

  19. #7979

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    IRC from some of the screengrabs, the bots were using a different but equally effective form of nolocal as well ?
    Please don't teach me what to do with my pc.

  20. #7980
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Remember all that stuff makes me feel old.
    It's not just a feeling, you should just retire
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

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