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Thread: Don't let your dreams be dreams

  1. #41
    Jester's Avatar
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    Concur. If they were that pissed about not being able to fly, they would have moved to other alliances. They wanted to fly on a team that would win so they could up their ownership percentage in that shitty AT ship disbursement system you have. That's all. Just greed.
    Ripard Teg (among others)... what's our new alliance called again?
    I was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer, to good effect. Or at least, that's what most of EVE believes.

  2. #42
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    Tbf they did show that they were so much better than the other teams who turned up. Colluding was a shitty thing to do though.

    Also, the people who fit illegal mods on their flagships should be punished more heavily.
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  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBlathos View Post
    I guess I really don't understand why you didn't just all join a single alliance and split the winnings amongst everyone in the squad, even if they didn't actually get on grid for the tournament? Obviously there is a smaller payout in both isk and time on grid at the AT, but then there is also the fact that you don't get banned (again), lose all your winnings, and lose the respect of pretty much the whole community for being a cheater.

    If you were really so confident in your piloting and comps and only cared about winning you'd not have cheated. Base greed for more prizes and time on grid drove this, I don't really see how you can play it off as anything else.
    It's not greed. Many people didn't want to participate if we did single team (mostly those who are newer to tournaments). I don't have way to make them to participate against their will.

    Quote Originally Posted by n0th View Post
    Hey Kadesh, will you still be maintaining pyfa though?
    I don't know. Time will tell. Not in following few months for sure, but i know that people change their opinions, so no promises.
    Last edited by Kadesh; October 6 2015 at 09:32:41 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    Concur. If they were that pissed about not being able to fly, they would have moved to other alliances. They wanted to fly on a team that would win so they could up their ownership percentage in that shitty AT ship disbursement system you have. That's all. Just greed.
    It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBlathos View Post
    I guess I really don't understand why you didn't just all join a single alliance and split the winnings amongst everyone in the squad, even if they didn't actually get on grid for the tournament? Obviously there is a smaller payout in both isk and time on grid at the AT, but then there is also the fact that you don't get banned (again), lose all your winnings, and lose the respect of pretty much the whole community for being a cheater.

    If you were really so confident in your piloting and comps and only cared about winning you'd not have cheated. Base greed for more prizes and time on grid drove this, I don't really see how you can play it off as anything else.
    It's not greed. Many people didn't want to participate if we did single team (mostly those who are newer to tournaments). I don't have way to make them to participate against their will.
    In that case why not just have two separate teams without any collusion or sharing?

  6. #46
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    Oh, don't get me wrong. Greed isn't necessarily a problem. Until it motivates you to start fixing lotteries, or fixing prices, or running fake investment scams, or colluding with competitors to decide who should win a game before it's played. Thereby blackening the name of a tournament that -- despite what you think -- you don't own.

    Then you get your ass stomped. As you rightly have.
    Ripard Teg (among others)... what's our new alliance called again?
    I was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer, to good effect. Or at least, that's what most of EVE believes.

  7. #47
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    Bargain bin dreams itt

    Gj being bad at life

  8. #48
    W0lf Crendraven's Avatar
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    Hydra and c4mel just ran into the limitations their working together spawned, basicely you can have 0 practice partners and just lose like most people did, you can simply practice with multiple teams, this gives you a broad selection of people to play with, very fun practices as every practice is a mini AT, and a semi shared theorycrafting pool where a lot of idea get thrown in - however this is very vulnuarable to specific meta shifts and practices are way less efficient due to people not working together but against each other. Then you have 1 team doing everything internally, but this has its own problems, pl are theri own worst enemy in some sense and have knocked themselves out due to it multiple times, you rely extremely on spying to not fall behind in the meta.


    And lastly you have the 2 teams that work extremely well together, you can practice according to bans, practices run smoother and you get more matches in, you can get plans, test specific stuff and have by far the best practcie environement there is - this only has 1 drawback, and its a big one. If you meet before the finals in game you are screwed.

    Run through what they can do

    - do a proper series, throwing away AT ships left and right, giving everyone their best comps you usually would want to safe untill the finals, you have to give everything away and other opponents will get a huge edge over you (which you obviously dont want to do)

    - collude in a way that its still a match but you dont give everything away (simple gentlemans rules)

    - colude heavily by predetermining everything


    No matter what you do, you are screwed. You get the short end of the stick so or so, which really isnt great.



    Its a tough choice and you cant really take the right answer without screwing yourselfs over, they basicely were forced to collude simply due to how close they worked together with c4mel. Its the one fatal weakness of the training method, and it would have bitten them last year too if hydra hadnt gotten itself knocked out. Due to how the seeding and brackets work you will have to fight once before you face your toughest opponent for a last time.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Run through what they can do

    - do a proper series, throwing away AT ships left and right, giving everyone their best comps you usually would want to safe untill the finals, you have to give everything away and other opponents will get a huge edge over you (which you obviously dont want to do)

    - collude in a way that its still a match but you dont give everything away (simple gentlemans rules)

    - colude heavily by predetermining everything
    Not hard to see which one of your options doesn't make you a cunt vOv

  10. #50
    W0lf Crendraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBlathos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Run through what they can do

    - do a proper series, throwing away AT ships left and right, giving everyone their best comps you usually would want to safe untill the finals, you have to give everything away and other opponents will get a huge edge over you (which you obviously dont want to do)

    - collude in a way that its still a match but you dont give everything away (simple gentlemans rules)

    - colude heavily by predetermining everything
    Not hard to see which of your options doesn't make you a cunt vOv
    It however makes you lose in a even worse way (for them). And if dhb hadnt been a whistleblower they would have gotten away with it while from their pov going all out could have cost them the AT in a more likely manner.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    I see you have read nietzsche's little known work "beyond boobs and butts".

  11. #51
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBlathos View Post
    In that case why not just have two separate teams without any collusion or sharing?
    Read. Because they wouldn't practice at full potential against each other, and in doing so leave themselves open to being bested by others in the actual AT.

    Either they hold back some ideas to prepare to fight their practice team for real, or they practice and compete as '1' team.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eshnala View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    Count yourself slapped on the wrist. If I had been Logibro, I would have broken up the Camel/Hydra/Outbreak hegemony permanently ("No more than two EVE players on the following list may ever again be on the same team for the purposes of the Alliance Tournament or any other CCP-sponsored tournament."). Just because of plain old greed, the same group has now colluded and conspired to wreck two ATs and the punishment in both cases has been pretty light.
    The main reason (as said by Kadesh already) wasnt greed. It was the desire of the actual line members to play in the actual AT matches themselfs. We evaluated before the start with our line members if they would be interested in just having 1 team and a lot of people didnt like it, because they wouldnt have been able to fly, thus we wouldnt have been able to get 24 for practice. Without the ability to have full practice sessions, there is no chance in winning the AT.
    Even with a full roster of about 35 we rarely got more than maybe 25/26 for practice on a regular basis.

    Obviously we also took into considderation the possible bigger prize pool, but it wasnt the main motivation.

    If you believe me or not its up to you, but thats the truth.
    no sympaythy...maybe, in future we can get in the tourneys more peeps who actualy play eve, instead getting this ccp disbursement to pepes who are only either pulling there own junk and doing nothing buy fly tournament 1* yearly or their cycophants for prizes...

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBlathos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Run through what they can do

    - do a proper series, throwing away AT ships left and right, giving everyone their best comps you usually would want to safe untill the finals, you have to give everything away and other opponents will get a huge edge over you (which you obviously dont want to do)

    - collude in a way that its still a match but you dont give everything away (simple gentlemans rules)

    - colude heavily by predetermining everything
    Not hard to see which of your options doesn't make you a cunt vOv
    It however makes you lose in a even worse way (for them). And if dhb hadnt been a whistleblower they would have gotten away with it.
    LMFAO how is getting permabanned from the AT for cheating worse then losing a handful (at most) of uniques?

    For all their cries of "we didn't care about isk only getting to play and show we're the best" the fact still remains they cheated to win, and got rightly fucked for it. It was stupid and shitty and they got what they deserved.

    I'm actually kinda surprised they haven't gotten shit on even more looking and the mentions of account sharing with banned players, which is also shitty. I guess there was no evidence.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBlathos View Post
    In that case why not just have two separate teams without any collusion or sharing?
    Read. Because they wouldn't practice at full potential against each other, and in doing so leave themselves open to being bested by others in the actual AT.

    Either they hold back some ideas to prepare to fight their practice team for real, or they practice and compete as '1' team.
    Right. So they wanted an unfair advantage over the other teams and so cheated. Like I said.

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBlathos View Post
    In that case why not just have two separate teams without any collusion or sharing?
    Well, that part just explains motivation behind doing two teams. Once you have two teams and do everything you're allowed to do (give other team uniques for important matches, share knowledge base - the latter is the most important one and it will always be outside of control of CCP), there're two tiny steps which you have to do - which indeed break the rules - in order to not penalize your chances of winning the tournament. I use word penalize here intentionally, because from my perspective having teams which practice together, if you fight each other for real (until important matches at least) gives you worse chances to win tournament, compared to doing just 1 team.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBlathos View Post
    In that case why not just have two separate teams without any collusion or sharing?
    Well, that part just explains motivation behind doing two teams. Once you have two teams and do everything you're allowed to do (give other team uniques for important matches, share knowledge base - the latter is the most important one and it will always be outside of control of CCP), there're two tiny steps which you have to do - which indeed break the rules - in order to not penalize your chances of winning the tournament. I use word penalize here intentionally, because from my perspective having teams which practice together, if you fight each other for real (until important matches at least) gives you worse chances to win tournament, compared to doing just 1 team.
    All I am seeing here is you having a weird entitlement to not suffer the drawbacks of an internal practise nor practising with other alliances, which everyone else does have to suffer.

    Like, do you realize that you were being a cunt and that by avoiding these drawbacks you cheated, which may have been the reason your teams beat the others?

  17. #57
    W0lf Crendraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBlathos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBlathos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Run through what they can do

    - do a proper series, throwing away AT ships left and right, giving everyone their best comps you usually would want to safe untill the finals, you have to give everything away and other opponents will get a huge edge over you (which you obviously dont want to do)

    - collude in a way that its still a match but you dont give everything away (simple gentlemans rules)

    - colude heavily by predetermining everything
    Not hard to see which of your options doesn't make you a cunt vOv
    It however makes you lose in a even worse way (for them). And if dhb hadnt been a whistleblower they would have gotten away with it.
    LMFAO how is getting permabanned from the AT for cheating worse then losing a handful (at most) of uniques?

    For all their cries of "we didn't care about isk only getting to play and show we're the best" the fact still remains they cheated to win, and got rightly fucked for it. It was stupid and shitty and they got what they deserved.

    I'm actually kinda surprised they haven't gotten shit on even more looking and the mentions of account sharing with banned players, which is also shitty. I guess there was no evidence.
    It isnt (only) about the at ships, every team has a few all around good basic setups (most floon based this at) that work vs everything and a couple of really good ones that the teams think are their secret ace, in hydras/camels team the cambion t3d rush, the widow comps and the phoons, for pl the moracha comp (cause all their other comps were very meh, shadow chocked hardcore or they would have been sent down way sooner), you need those setups to win at the games that matter, the fits are secret, the potential is secret. Having to reveal them in such a fashion vs your own team is disastrous.

    I think most people would have colluded in some form. How they did it however was very stupid.
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  18. #58
    Donor Lex Arson's Avatar
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    seriously you'd think by now you would've learned to not get caught

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  19. #59
    W0lf Crendraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Arson View Post
    seriously you'd think by now you would've learned to not get caught
    Yeah, this is the big thing. Although dhb did a dickmove by snitching, you dont do that no matter how much you dislike the people you worked with. Had they not written it down but just talked about it on comms then it would have been "the logs show nothing".
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    I see you have read nietzsche's little known work "beyond boobs and butts".

  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBlathos View Post
    For all their cries of "we didn't care about isk only getting to play and show we're the best" the fact still remains they cheated to win, and got rightly fucked for it.
    It's not 'their cries', it is my personal opinion and it is indeed how i feel. The only thing i cared about is AT ban, because it was the most interesting part of game for me. However, leaving AT after beating everyone is probably better than crumbling as your results degrade. Most likely, i would be much more disappointed after losing next AT than getting perma-AT-ban.

    However, many of our regular members are really mad, because they wanted these ships and ISK. You can't take away that. Like in any collective, we're not uniform and have different opinions on almost any question, this included.

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