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Thread: Don't let your dreams be dreams

  1. #1

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    Don't let your dreams be dreams

    I'll start from saying that words from the last thread I created on eve-o were not mine - I was just talking head here, people wanted to DC public reaction etc. This one, however, is going to be my post for real.

    Tournament behind the scenes

    Theorycrafting value is huge. More than 90% of our fights vs other teams in AT13 were won just because we had stronger setups. At the moment I remember just camels vs SMA where they have been countered, but won nevertheless, relying completely on execution (and bad fittings on SMA side which is part of theorycrafting too, strictly speaking). If you want to win, you have to develop new ideas, test hardcore, optimize everything AND to hide it. If you're not protecting your "intellectual property" and scrim with random teams, giving away optimized fits, ideas, the way you fly setups in different circumstances - you're giving away all the advantage you have. Thus, internal tests or tests with team of friends are prerequisite to winning - if there's serious competition of course, some tournaments where competition level was much lower (like at10 or neo2) can be easily excluded from this rule.

    Execution and theorycrafting rely on tests/practices. You have to keep full tests running at all costs. They provide team members enough practice to recover skill even if they are rusty in the beginning. They are fuel for the theorycrafting, giving real feedback for your ideas. To keep practices running, you need at least 24-25 regular pilots every practice, assuming they are flexible enough to do multiple roles; if not - minimal amount is higher. There're two approaches to solving this issue:

    1) If you have vast human resources, you can have your core pilots attending most practices and have big pool of semi-random people who are not supposed to fly in real matches (or at least important ones) and come to tests from time to time. I think it's approach used by PL, but it is not flawless - your core pilots are more practiced, thus often they will do less execution mistakes (which are nearly impossible to see without some kind of replay functionality), resulting in inconclusive results and feeding false data to your theorycrafting. I believe that's how famous dual-tanking vagas and beam zealots were born.

    2) Do tests with two equally skilled and motivated teams. Conclusive results, all the pilots are getting alot of practice flying their role, this approach is almost ideal. The biggest flaw - you have to have two teams.

    Why do 'grunts' from the approach 1 have lower attendance than the core, and why do you have to do two teams in the approach 2? The answer is simple, nobody wants to waste 3 months on practices to not participate in real matches at all, or fly in just 2-3, especially if pilot realizes there're more skilled teammates, who are more likely to be picked for important matches. Here comes requirement to have 60-100 people for one team or two teams with ~20 dedicated pilots in each. We seriously considered doing one team as our main option for AT13 - but we couldn't get enough people for full tests even assuming 100% reliability and attendance, thus decided on doing two teams. Ironically, i discussed it with DHB and he really wanted to do two, too.

    When actual tournament starts, there're multiple additional factors which influence teams. For example, surprise factor cannot be underestimated. When you face setup you have never seen before - you have only 2-3 minutes to understand what it's capable of, make plan and explain it to your team. The time limit is so harsh that it leads to many fuckups, and gives you much higher chance to win if you actually bring something new. Only the brightest minds in EVE are capable of not 100% fucking it up. Adapting to really new/metabreaking ideas takes alot of time, as it may need to rework your strategy and setups, thus surprise effect may last even few days, e.g. you can consider that when you show metabreaker on day 5, on day 6 it will still be painful to fight against. It leads to requirement to save setups - like PL saved their arty sleip/moracha setup, or we saved triple-typhoon all-in or widow semi-turtle until the final weekend.

    With 2 teams, it's almost 2 times harder to save, because you have 2 times more matches to play (or even more than 2x if one of your teams knocks another into losers brackets). If you as your team's mastermind have big enough balls to use B-grade setups vs weaker teams, it may take a while to convince 2nd team to follow your strategy - they are afraid of their opponents as fuck and just want to use the best setups from the available ones. Don't listen to Rive saying that it's easier to save setups and go through brackets with 2 teams, he is clueless or intentionally lying. It's much, much harder.

    If you succeed with both teams while advancing through brackets, sooner or later teams will fight each other. Because of said secrecy and huge value of surprise factor of new setups, you don't want to show any metabreakers or waste your ingame/human resources on match vs each other - just to have better chance to win the whole thing, with one or both teams. Typical collision of interests:

    - use your best setups vs your hardest opponent (your second team knows all details about you, thus if you fight it for real it is the hardest enemy indeed). This way you have better chance to advance for your team and worse chance to win later for both teams
    - do semi-controlled environment where both teams can win but without showing anything new, hence not hurting your overall chances to win tournament

    If you're good friends, I am pretty sure that you will decide to do latter. It just appears that our team + our friends are the only teams who are capable of meeting each other in later stages of tournament. Any other couple of good scrim partners, if they want to win tournament, are likely to settle the deal the same way we did.

    Yet another (although relatively minor, compared to others) factor to consider is how much time do you have after matches vs each other. In our case we had choice between 30 minutes tops to do bans and all preparations (20:00 3rd match in our bo3, LB bo1 20:40) and 70 minutes. Anyone who fought on final day of tournament knows how hectic is it. Same thing as in previous paragraph applies here. For friends choice is obvious, and we are friends, thus we reduced our bo3 to bo1 - fair fight in equal setups for 1st match, biased setups for 2nd match where side which lost 1st fight used weaker one. The timestamps I used here are from schedule which was initially published by CCP, they changed it at some point (I even have no idea when, but it wasn't the change when they rearranged day 2) but we didn't notice it until last moments.

    Also through experience we learned that CCP hates more when matches look staged, rather than when they are actually staged. If you practice together whole season, you have shared setup pool; if you have shared setup pool, there's huge chance that if you fight for real - within context of specific bans both teams will pick the same setup. It would look as collusion on stream, while it's not. And if you assume/know that CCP cares about good show more than following the rules (regardless of what they say to general public), you're likely to take some precaution measures against mirrors.

    When it comes to winning something, if you're good friends you have a deal to share prizes already. Because if one team gets knocked out early, pilots of team which lost will have 0 motivation to come and help with super important tests during tournament itself. Prizes make sure that 2nd team, which is still in tourney, is still up and running at regular pace with all the tests it needs. Prize sharing reduces desire of teams to use stronger setups vs each other too (which, as mentioned, hurts overall chances). It is more fair for members from both teams because they all equally worked towards the victory.

    There's more stuff to gain advantage, related to intel. Role of spies within other teams is obvious to everyone, role of intel masters roaming sisi too. There're also hack/coding-related stuff. I'm not talking about various little helpers which many teams have - SiSi automatic monitoring and match CREST-related tools. I am pretty confident that in the older ATs PL had hack which enabled you to determine which ship type any selected character is using. Supposedly it was done via injected client on remote machine, accessible via IRC bot/plugin. I have no hard proofs, but hack description made alot of sense to me with my knowledge about EVE client guts. On top of that, at some point I had (or maybe I still have) code of the IRC bot framework they were using (but without that plugin to detect ships, which might've been added later or just not included into distribution), and some people from PL leadership reacted in a weird way when it was brought up by someone. If you missed all the AT10 drama and/or think that PL are playing it honorable way, here're few links: 1, 2, 3, 4. It might be fake, but it's too good and convincing to be fake. You probably can ask Fozzie if it was a thing, he was a player for PL team, in a position to know about such things.

    We came up with highly specialized and optimized bruteforce attack this year, which with many optimizations and minor manual assistance lets you to fetch all the CREST killmail links from any sisi test, even if it was conducted in wormhole, you just need to know when test was conducted and at least partial list of participating characters and roles of few key pilots, and it takes just 5-20 hours per test with no operator assistance. Before you rage about OMG HYDRA HAXX - I coded proof of concept, verified that it works on our tests and gave all the info away to FoxFour. We were afraid of PL having the same thing more than we wanted to have it on our side. Yes, it was the only reason why we gave up from using this hack. There's no way for CCP to determine who's doing it, if you take few precaution measures.

    Who knows, there might be additional tools which I did not mention here and which gave our team advantage, or might be not. All I can say that I am confident there're vast possibilities in area of technical tools and being good friends with CCP employees, and some teams might exploit it, while lying low.

    Yes, it is gaming the system and breaking rules. But it's all quite logical if you want to win, especially with limited resources. There're too many possibilities to gain advantage and too many interest collisions to ignore them. I guess many teams would break rules, they just didn't advance far enough through brackets yet. Especially those which are short on people and scrim with the same partner the whole season are likely to do at least something from the list, if they don't fail early. Obviously it's my personal opinion, but it's backed up with multi-year experience of running my team and observing many others.

    These are basic motives behind (some?) team captains who want to win AT using current ruleset. And i don't see how it can be fixed, unless preparation period is removed altogether. But without it, AT will be pretty casual event. Reducing amount of people in each team like Fozzie already suggested somewhere will not solve any issues (but will partially mitigate some of them), if you keep motives in mind. Prohibiting practices with anyone outside of the team will work to some extent, but shafts smaller teams, reduces motivation for people to attend practices, and still makes it possible to collude - share experience, which is one of the most valuable things in AT. Having ambiguous anti-collusion rules which are impossible to enforce properly is not the best option. After all, you do not have access to out-of-game communications, and it's impossible to detect properly setup collusion via the in-game means.

    Eyo, DHB
    I hated that pointless ad hominem post which i mentioned in the beginning of this one. You know that I'm not driven by emotions (at least to the extent you do) and that I didn't panic under such minor pressure. However, as you (together with me and my decision making) screwed up so many team mates, i think it would be fair to screw up you too. So, here're some (dirty) facts about you.

    - your ideas were rejected during AT12 to such extent that you rageremoved all your posts from "setup ideas", and when HYDRA lost to nulli/ronin you tried to insist that we should've listened to you (even though none of your ideas were as metabreaking as their setups and testing them wouldn't help at all)
    - your ideas were rejected during AT13 to such extent that you rageremoved all your posts from "setup ideas" (yes, again)
    - you have been raging about how bad stuff we're testing against is and that we should be testing vs different things; you were invited to theorycrafting channel to become part of theorycrafting crew and fix that, but instead of learning you suggested to prooftest our setups vs dumb stuff like mass neut all-ins with 2k dps ("because PL might field it"), and blaster scram-kiting proteuses with neutrons+nulls and scram subsystems ("because BL/SMA might field it") and countless random ideas, where you didn't even try to imagine how fight vs our setups develops; we spent quite some time explaining to you why they were bad (not just "shut up u retard"), which nevertheless made you to ragequit channel at least twice
    - you have some weird vargur obsession which cannot be explained by any logic
    - we did at least 2 vargur test sets (24 people involved, besides those who do the logi and sit out) just to comfort you and calm your hot head down
    - you do not trust team members and base your ideas on that ("i don't trust our logi pilot, thus i assume i won't receive reps, so i'm gonna put as many high-ehp ships as possible in this fresh new idea")
    - you wasted quite many hours of my time during preps on explaining justification to some stuff we're doing just to comfort you, no other team member needed that
    - you love and can fly only battleships, anything faster than 2k and you're doing many execution mistakes
    - you start panicking mid-match if anything related to your ship goes wrong (e.g. getting jammed too often), and after that your decision making on the field gets screwed up and communication gets too many excessive words and too much noise (like you mentioned in your post, you commited your TFI in last match - it's good example of screwing up, because we were doing something in the meantime - killing bombers; and that's where you weren't pressured as much)
    - you're drama queen
    - the only reason you was accepted to AT13 team - we were super short on people
    - the only reasons why you haven't been kicked during AT13 preps - you have uniques and (most importantly) you already had access to our setups which you might leak if we did kick you

    You're good at bumping (as in, pressing approach + mwd on) and that's it. Don't even tell lies about Haart missing bumps, he didn't do that many bump attempts as you mentioned in the 1st place - maybe he missed one (and I don't remember even that), but definitely not 3 out of 4. I tried to put you into cruise BS for a reason, because it's one of the easiest ship classes to fly. And yes, i will never forget you mwd-orbiting AT12 NOHO gila turtle in arty sleip w/o cap injector while leaving rep range of our logi. It was the moment when I realized how bad you are at understanding game mechanics and how rusty you are despite all the practice you had.

    This is ad hominem too, but now it has a reason besides emotional reactions. I hope you're not getting onto any good team, I hope nobody likes whistleblowers and drama queens. I hope nobody gets baited by unique assets, they're not worth the risks you bring. I'm glad that you left.

    The team and responsibility

    Only few people were aware of what's going on. Out of people who were active this year me, haart + one dude from camel side whom I'm not going to name due to obvious reasons. We had multi-layered leadership and everyone even in theorycrafting/logistics channel didn't know, let alone line members, they could suspect something at best.

    Crowd Controls Production

    CCP has rich history of showing how they act under heavy community/media pressure. I am not surprised that intensity of their investigations is driven once again by angry mob. We watched several bannings which occurred in-between HYDRA/outbreak AT10 ban and present moment and laughed a bit at how this doesn't change. Now it's time for other people to laugh, and maybe for CCP. Yet the point remains, harshness of punishment is defined by size and loudness of mob. Nobody cares about broken rules when you can take easy route and there's no angry mob nearby or it's not large enough (illegal flagship modules); just as nobody cares about absence of broken rules when there's angry mob (erotica1 would be good example - even though dude is massive retard and I am not defending him, he broke no rules. "If we don't host it, we can't get involved" (c) CCP Random). I am confident if we did same offense as other team and brought illegal flagship modules in match vs PL, when stakes are much higher, we would be punished one way or another just because there would be bigger shitstorm on eveo and le reddit. Attempt to take everything away because of single fixed match is even more retarded in my opinion.

    The deeds

    After everything what happened I feel sorry just for my team (both warlord and camel sides) - they spent countless man-hours for no gains, which are the most needed for people who play eve actively on TQ. Personally, I belong to class which others call "spacerich", with 1T+ total asset cost, thus obviously for me AT13 wasn't about ISK, it wasn't about e-fame (the thing which I truly hate, especially in context of EVE), it was about personal achievement - winning the damn thing and beating PL, and I achieved both with both teams. Something which only Garmon achieved thus far before me.

    List of teams we fought:

    SpaceMonkey's Alliance (1:0)
    Black Legion. (1:0)
    Agony Empire (1:0)
    The Methodical Alliance (1:0)
    The Gorgon Empire and Spawn (1:0)
    The Tuskers Co. (2:0)
    Exodus. (3:0)
    Triumvirate. (1:0)
    Pandemic Legion (4:1)

    There're quite many resonant names in there. You can take away our prizes, but not the fact that we straight-out beat everyone else in the tournament and won it. Only PL took one match from us, which emphasizes difference between level of teams (which is defined by experience, rather than uniques, unlike some people want to think). Props to PL for this, there're good chances you will rule AT again with yet another backslash applied to our team. B-teams era is gone, B-grade teams era begins.

    I regret nothing. If i could rewind time back, I just would be more opsec, so that no little fucker annoys me after the tournament. Anyone who has other mindset with ~honor~ or any other high-moral bullshit doesn't deserve to win. This is eve.

  2. #2
    Smarnca's Avatar
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    QQ moree


  3. #3
    Ruri's Avatar
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    So form Voltron and merge all your tourney effort into one alliance on TQ, but otherwise keep the teams using separate channels in order to avoid massive groupthink.

    Sure, you don't get 1st AND 2nd place rewards, but you get 1st, and a win, and haven't blown everyone's time and effort to shit.

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    Ass ass ass.

  4. #4
    Muffinsrevenger's Avatar
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    F, lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonesbones View Post
    Doom crying about people who left OE because he's a horrendous alliance leader (good FC though, when no Hyperions are present.)

  6. #6
    John Selth's Avatar
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    Logging into FHC for the first time in months just to post in this thread :P


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  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruri View Post
    So form Voltron and merge all your tourney effort into one alliance on TQ, but otherwise keep the teams using separate channels in order to avoid massive groupthink.

    Sure, you don't get 1st AND 2nd place rewards, but you get 1st, and a win, and haven't blown everyone's time and effort to shit.
    If you did read what i wrote carefully, it's exactly what we tried to do for AT13 and it didn't work.

  8. #8

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    [words]

    You lost.
    The objective of the AT is to win.
    We won.

  9. #9

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    uhhhh.... no. I'm sorry, but i am mature enough to not eat your toxic trolling. You got the ISK and shiney ships, but your gut feeling _knows_ that you were weaker than my teams.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruri View Post
    So form Voltron and merge all your tourney effort into one alliance on TQ, but otherwise keep the teams using separate channels in order to avoid massive groupthink.

    Sure, you don't get 1st AND 2nd place rewards, but you get 1st, and a win, and haven't blown everyone's time and effort to shit.
    If you did read what i wrote carefully, it's exactly what we tried to do for AT13 and it didn't work.
    expert advise here; for at14 maybe you should just not collude with an alt team

    simple and cheap

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruri View Post
    So form Voltron and merge all your tourney effort into one alliance on TQ, but otherwise keep the teams using separate channels in order to avoid massive groupthink.

    Sure, you don't get 1st AND 2nd place rewards, but you get 1st, and a win, and haven't blown everyone's time and effort to shit.
    If you did read what i wrote carefully, it's exactly what we tried to do for AT13 and it didn't work.
    We seriously considered doing one team as our main option for AT13 - but we couldn't get enough people for full tests even assuming 100% reliability and attendance, thus decided on doing two teams.
    So by "we" here you mean Camel and Hydra together?

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    Ass ass ass.

  12. #12
    W0lf Crendraven's Avatar
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    Do you have severe autism or aspergers or similar? Cause some of the stuff your wrote, and how you wrote is is quite worrysome if coming from a "normal" person. Dont hurt yourself over a video game, just remember its only a game.


    Even i, spitefull as i may be, totally regognize that you won this year, collusion or not



    Or do you live from the rmt you make or something, goign to these lenghts for the at (and any game in general) is quite weird.
    Last edited by W0lf Crendraven; October 6 2015 at 07:27:30 PM.
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    I see you have read nietzsche's little known work "beyond boobs and butts".

  13. #13
    Duckslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Yes, it is gaming the system and breaking rules
    All you needed to say dude

  14. #14
    Marlona Sky's Avatar
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    One may survive distress, but not disgrace. - Proverb

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    uhhhh.... no. I'm sorry, but i am mature enough to not eat your toxic trolling. You got the ISK and shiney ships, but your gut feeling _knows_ that you were weaker than my teams.
    Teams, exactly. Your gut feeling _knows_ you need teams.
    In AT11 , you lost without B team, as you lost any other tournaments where you had no B team.

    But, once again, you LOST. We WON.

    Bye

  16. #16
    Smuggo's Avatar
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    Why are people + CCP so buttmad about this? The tourney is boring as fuck, at least a bit of metagame and CCP trolling makes it semi-interesting.



  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Do you have severe autism or aspergers or similar?
    I am high functioning sociopath.


    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Or do you live from the rmt you make or something, goign to these lenghts for the at (and any game in general) is quite weird.
    No, i earn more than enough IRL. I just, well, liked EVE.

  18. #18
    W0lf Crendraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Why are people + CCP so buttmad about this? The tourney is boring as fuck, at least a bit of metagame and CCP trolling makes it semi-interesting.
    Its only boring if you arent into it. Is actually very interesting and the "skill" level is rising higher and higher, from a pure outsiders perspective its scary how good hydra and camel are in comparison to all the rest. At theorycrafting i mean, piloting wise there probably are better teams.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    I see you have read nietzsche's little known work "beyond boobs and butts".

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fafer View Post
    Teams, exactly. Your gut feeling _knows_ you need teams.
    Indeed. Without _teams_ we wouldn't be able to practice. So you have a point - not everyone has such vast human resources as PL.

  20. #20
    Mr Marram's Avatar
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    So, try hards tried too hard and had to cheat because they didn't think they were trying hard enough.


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