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Thread: AT XIII in retrospect: rules, refinements, and thoughts on future tournaments

  1. #21

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    Specificly regarding AT ships i dropped a discussion thread on r/eve about it, seems to have a fairly even mix of opinions so far.

    obligatory link - https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comment...t_prize_ships/

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamir View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Personally a part of the tinker hate is that it's just so far from what's viable on TQ. At least spider tanking is a thing there, cap-fed-only logi with local tank isn't at all (not even in w-space). It's so artificial, potentially powerful because of the AT setting, and boring to watch mirror matches of.
    I dislike them cause they totally kill off the no logi meta, sure they do serve a role and most tinkers suck but they are boring to watch, boring to fly, boring to fight. Just all around boring, and they totally limit the control aspect of the game.
    you sure as shit talking out of your ass if you think flying a tinker is boring
    It's not boring to fly, especially as the logi. It is intensely boring to watch unless the logi dies but then the match is lost anyway.


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  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamir View Post
    you sure as shit talking out of your ass if you think flying a tinker is boring
    Uhh when flying turtle ship (besides the logi) became interesting?

    I quite agree that they have huge impact on the meta (eliminates nologi setups, forces people to bring more damage/neuting which is typically close-range stuff rather than kiting), and i disagree that they restrict control play alot, but they are immensely boring both to fly and to watch.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamir View Post
    you sure as shit talking out of your ass if you think flying a tinker is boring
    Uhh when flying turtle ship (besides the logi) became interesting?

    I quite agree that they have huge impact on the meta (eliminates nologi setups, forces people to bring more damage/neuting which is typically close-range stuff rather than kiting), and i disagree that they restrict control play alot, but they are immensely boring both to fly and to watch.
    C

    I flew a tinker widow 3 times in this tournament and it wasn't that much of a challenge considering you do not really need to worry about positioning

  5. #25

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    having flow "TEST" tinker last year could not say it's super easy but maybe i'm just shit

  6. #26

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    Under cap pressure it can get rather interesting, like in our AT XI match against what was then Exodus. Some of you were there for that one and I can assure you that much like ducks there was furious paddling under the surface by all members on the team.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Quaan View Post
    Under cap pressure it can get rather interesting, like in our AT XI match against what was then Exodus. Some of you were there for that one and I can assure you that much like ducks there was furious paddling under the surface by all members on the team.
    Yeah but thats just mod management, tinker logi, especially bomber logi, is fairly hard but otherwise you simply have to keep links running, keep the tengu/loki running by making sure you keep cap transfers up while injecting hardeners and the like under heavy cap preassure + shooting correct ammo, with correct scripts loaded at the right person + scramming/webbing the designated target, ideally before the bumping run is completed while also keeping in range of your logi. All in all a fairly simple job compared to other AT piloting. Which makes it boring for everything bar the fc and the logi.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
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  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Quaan View Post
    Under cap pressure it can get rather interesting, like in our AT XI match against what was then Exodus. Some of you were there for that one and I can assure you that much like ducks there was furious paddling under the surface by all members on the team.
    Yeah but thats just mod management, tinker logi, especially bomber logi, is fairly hard but otherwise you simply have to keep links running, keep the tengu/loki running by making sure you keep cap transfers up while injecting hardeners and the like under heavy cap preassure + shooting correct ammo, with correct scripts loaded at the right person + scramming/webbing the designated target, ideally before the bumping run is completed while also keeping in range of your logi. All in all a fairly simple job compared to other AT piloting. Which makes it boring for everything bar the fc and the logi.
    Keeping links on in a vulture while being neuted is quite difficult. You need to cap boost and get all your mods off before you get drained again, and you have to try to keep your cap transfer going while doing these things and painting the primary target. that's all manageable until you run out of charges and then you realize you don't have cargo containers on your overview so you have to frantically search for it in space while doing all of the above.

    Eve will never be a good spectator sport, no point in catering to them really.

  9. #29
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    I think CCP needs to take a good look at EWAR. We can sit here and go "Drones are too powerful. Just look at AT XII" and "Missile ships ruled the day this tournament." Part of that is that there is no drone disruption or missile disruption. Another issue that made drones way OP is the Ishtar then was 4 nerfs ago. I don't think you could do the same thing now that you could then. Still ban Augmented drones and Geckos. They are the equivalent of faction guns which you can't fit on other ships. Missile disruption needs to become a thing so we can see things besides endless bombers.

    I feel that Tinkers were much less of an issue this year. They are still there and I am okay with that. They aren't exciting, but they allow teams with fewer than 12 members on to actually field something that can possibly deal with a 12 man team. I feel they were used less and banned more. That's alright in my book.

    I think the issue with AT ships is that people can't help but feel the affordability of AT ships will limit them to a few select teams and those teams will continue to use and abuse them to gain an advantage. It's a tough problem to solve. On one hand they do provide and advantage, although there is disagreement to how much, and something should be done to compensate for it. On the other hand the most exciting matches of the AT are the matches where AT ships are fielded and any nerf to their effectiveness will make that less likely to happen. I am sure there is a great solution out there. I haven't seen it yet.

    Svipuls needs a nerf. Confessors needs a smaller nerf. Their oppressiveness from TQ translated into oppressiveness in the AT.

    If Marauders continue to be unable to use bastion they need to become cheaper points wise. I feel that Recons need a point reduction too. Faction BS need more differential in points compared to T1 BS. HICs need a point reduction.

    Next year CCP needs to lay out the consequences to cheating teams in the rules. I know they want the freedom to take situations as they are and make the punishment fit the crime. That seems pretty unacceptable to the community. Cheating is cheating. It needs to be punished the same way every time with more than a finger wag. Cheat twice and you may as well say "gg" to your tournament run. But CCP needs to state the first, second, and third offense punishments at the beginning and I assure you the community will hold them to it.

    I think overall this was one of the better tournaments. Not perfect, but better. Props to CCP.
    Last edited by Aliventi; August 31 2015 at 10:02:20 PM.

  10. #30

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    They used to set your shield/armor/hull HP to 50%* if you fit a banned module or didn't follow the warping rules, but you can't really do that after the match is over because your refs didn't notice.

    *IIRC this has also created some interesting matches as well.
    Last edited by Boltorano; August 31 2015 at 11:08:05 PM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Quaan View Post
    Under cap pressure it can get rather interesting, like in our AT XI match against what was then Exodus. Some of you were there for that one and I can assure you that much like ducks there was furious paddling under the surface by all members on the team.
    Yeah but thats just mod management, tinker logi, especially bomber logi, is fairly hard but otherwise you simply have to keep links running, keep the tengu/loki running by making sure you keep cap transfers up while injecting hardeners and the like under heavy cap preassure + shooting correct ammo, with correct scripts loaded at the right person + scramming/webbing the designated target, ideally before the bumping run is completed while also keeping in range of your logi. All in all a fairly simple job compared to other AT piloting. Which makes it boring for everything bar the fc and the logi.
    Keeping links on in a vulture while being neuted is quite difficult. You need to cap boost and get all your mods off before you get drained again, and you have to try to keep your cap transfer going while doing these things and painting the primary target. that's all manageable until you run out of charges and then you realize you don't have cargo containers on your overview so you have to frantically search for it in space while doing all of the above.

    Eve will never be a good spectator sport, no point in catering to them really.
    Yeah, but you can solve that by injecting links and then swapping one injector over for one cycle to cover the reload or needed tanking module activation. And a properly good tinker should also have xlasbs on the ships to keep 1 or 2 transfers on the tengu and also run the xlasb of the primary of cap to boost their tank to unbreakable levels or to not autolose to jams on the tengu beeing succesfull.

    Also, at least for me the super zoomed out sideway view was by far the most interesting spectator wise, while the close ups were pretty but totally useless. On the far away one you could actively see what was going on, on the others you only had the bars to watch.
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  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aliventi View Post
    Svipuls needs a nerf. Confessors needs a smaller nerf. Their oppressiveness from TQ translated into oppressiveness in the AT.
    I can't comment on the state of Svipuls and Confessors on TQ proper - I've not played outside SiSi or Jove space in two years - but I certainly don't think they were oppressive in the AT. Popular, certainly, but fairly priced in terms of points. The most comparable other small ship classes are probably AFs (which are great at tackling/screening but have poor-to-mediocre damage) and dictors (excellent antisupport dps, poor at tackling/screening). A T3D fulfils both the tackle and dps roles reasonably well but costs 50% more points, which is a pretty well-balanced tradeoff.

  13. #33
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    I've been satisfied with most of the changes, but i dont have problem buying billions worth ammo or implants. I do know that some other teams have relatively low budget, so i feel the same as someone before, that we should get RARE ammo types and every other implants out expect the fitting one.

    About TD. I think they should affect missiles too, or get scrpits back, and create a new module for missiles. But you need to do something about inapropiate ewar spread.

    Uniques: i think only the malice was way above the point cost this year. Everything else was fine, even when pl blapped with morachas.

    Changes i the point system, honestly this cannot be done properly like this. You cant think of changes for a year ahead. This should be done in the whole time continually. Like PTQ-Pre Tournament Qualifier. Like that CCP and the scene can see what rule set changes needs to be done till the real thing.

    It is very unlikely to happen but i think everyone would enjoy a more football like selection of teams. So lets say you have 120 teams which want to participate you can select groups out randomly, but the top 16 teams would be separately seeded obviusly. And you can run qualifiers thrue the entire year. If CCP lack of manpower than just get the community involved in it more. I know i would help in something like that, and i bet others too. For most of us this is literally the only thing we play thins game now.

    o7

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Yeah, but you can solve that by injecting links and then swapping one injector over for one cycle to cover the reload or needed tanking module activation. And a properly good tinker should also have xlasbs on the ships to keep 1 or 2 transfers on the tengu and also run the xlasb of the primary of cap to boost their tank to unbreakable levels or to not autolose to jams on the tengu beeing succesfull.
    I think it's clear to everyone at this point that you have no idea how tinkers work in the first place.

  15. #35

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    He still has valid point, it's not that hard. It took me 30 minutes to teach our new turtle CS pilots all the tricks with injector/nosf + module activation and module prioritizing, that's with some practice under neut pressure of 1-2 curses to let them choose which way they like more. Some minor positional practice during scrims on top of that and voila, turtle CS pilot ready.

    It takes much much longer to get good svipul pilot, for example.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Personally a part of the tinker hate is that it's just so far from what's viable on TQ. At least spider tanking is a thing there, cap-fed-only logi with local tank isn't at all (not even in w-space). It's so artificial, potentially powerful because of the AT setting, and boring to watch mirror matches of.
    I dislike them cause they totally kill off the no logi meta, sure they do serve a role and most tinkers suck but they are boring to watch, boring to fly, boring to fight. Just all around boring, and they totally limit the control aspect of the game.
    Our tinkers weren't boring to fly. They require an incredible amount of focus. I'm also not sure that they're boring to fight. They can be frustrating to fight, but not altogether boring...The fringe cases of this were when we brought our arty sleip/orthrus comp that had damps/jams vs Gorgon and Warlords. The Gorgon match was kind of boring to fly because of how well we shut them down and it was an easy win. If we weren't so stressed during the warlords fight it would have been boring.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Quaan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Yeah, but you can solve that by injecting links and then swapping one injector over for one cycle to cover the reload or needed tanking module activation. And a properly good tinker should also have xlasbs on the ships to keep 1 or 2 transfers on the tengu and also run the xlasb of the primary of cap to boost their tank to unbreakable levels or to not autolose to jams on the tengu beeing succesfull.
    I think it's clear to everyone at this point that you have no idea how tinkers work in the first place.
    Not empty quotin

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    He still has valid point, it's not that hard. It took me 30 minutes to teach our new turtle CS pilots all the tricks with injector/nosf + module activation and module prioritizing, that's with some practice under neut pressure of 1-2 curses to let them choose which way they like more. Some minor positional practice during scrims on top of that and voila, turtle CS pilot ready.

    It takes much much longer to get good svipul pilot, for example.
    I would probably still argue that the Svipul is more forgiving when it comes to piloting mistakes. If you overshoot your target on the approach there is still a chance to swing back for a second attempt at that tackle, but if you mismanage your cap under neuts in the Vulture stuff starts exploding around you.

    Tinkers aren't hard because you need StarCraft-level APM to fly them. They are hard because they are so unforgiving to mistakes and fittings.

  19. #39
    W0lf Crendraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Quaan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Yeah, but you can solve that by injecting links and then swapping one injector over for one cycle to cover the reload or needed tanking module activation. And a properly good tinker should also have xlasbs on the ships to keep 1 or 2 transfers on the tengu and also run the xlasb of the primary of cap to boost their tank to unbreakable levels or to not autolose to jams on the tengu beeing succesfull.
    I think it's clear to everyone at this point that you have no idea how tinkers work in the first place.
    You can have the regular tinker i.e rr tengu + bs + link ship, problem here, and as can be seen in a few matches is that if you get unlucky the actual damage of the enemy comp exceeds the tank on some bs or on the link ship. 3k+ rr tank is easily broken, especially with lucky jams + good bumps kill you almost instantly. Have a xlsb or xlasb on the ship and be good enough to swap transfers around to the primary (while keeping 1 or 2 on the tengu to keep rr running + not be instantly dead on a swap) and you tank those 3k or whatever + the xlasb amount which puts the tank to almost unbreachable levels and it gives you a lot of room in case of mistakes. EDIT. WOrth noting that this obviosuly depends on the type of tinker you run, bomber tinker for example usually doesnt have enough transfers.

    And unless you transfer the link ship when he reloads you autolose - because the duration of a link is 10 seconds, the reload + cycle time of a booster is 20, hence if you have 200s or so loaded you can inject links for a minute or so till you enter reload, then you die as you dont have links for 10 seconds (given any real cap preassure), which vs competent teams is enough to break you or the tengu, and if they dont they have the next minute too. Or you transfer 1 transfer onto the link ship to cover the reload and then move it back onto the logi.
    Last edited by W0lf Crendraven; September 1 2015 at 01:28:11 PM.
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  20. #40
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    The problem with tinkers isn't on the pilot end, it's on the viewer end. They're just flat-out incredibly boring to watch, and usually turn on the tiniest mistake which is nearly always impossible to guess unless someone in the know tells you what went wrong. Compelling viewing, this is not.

    At this point (now that I don't have to write about the matches any more), if I saw a tinker on field, I would just shut the stream off and watch/do something else then check the results later to see who won.
    Ripard Teg (among others)... what's our new alliance called again?
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