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Thread: AT XIII Day 5 chat/prediction/betting thread: shit's getting real

  1. #81
    Ruri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keeves View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Isn't it right for a cap-fed tinker setup?

    And yeah, massive GF to Tuskers if it wasn't obvious already.
    Yeah, and i think it was the same fit PL took last weekend. Doesn't mean I like it :P
    Only thing I'd consider changing really is an AB instead of the second SBA, since while your rep range is great it's entirely possible to get your battleships bamped out of range of their cap xfers and being able to close with them faster can be important, plus running under AB with the Etana's sig radius mitigates a butte-tonne of damage.

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  2. #82
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    Last year I flew cambion twice in practice matches against rote or exo, don't remember. I do remember we got dunked on hard and the ship dies surprisingly fast without logi reps.

    Yeah, its a strong ship, but its a hardly an I win button.

    Going hurf blurf warlords beat tuskers because of cambion is silly. Also from spectator it looked like tuskers where doing the right thing. See if you can break it, if not keep it tackled and ignore it and occasionally put some DMG on it to keep their logi honest. Essentially holding a 100b ship hostage.

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  3. #83
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    Also chessur is the only honest commentor, all the other try to not hurt feelings and he just tells it as it is (from what ive seen).
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  4. #84
    W0lf Crendraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roigon View Post
    Last year I flew cambion twice in practice matches against rote or exo, don't remember. I do remember we got dunked on hard and the ship dies surprisingly fast without logi reps.

    Yeah, its a strong ship, but its a hardly an I win button.

    Going hurf blurf warlords beat tuskers because of cambion is silly. Also from spectator it looked like tuskers where doing the right thing. See if you can break it, if not keep it tackled and ignore it and occasionally put some DMG on it to keep their logi honest. Essentially holding a 100b ship hostage.

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    going exodus only lost vs camel due to malice however isnt. And they always take up 1 or 2 bans, which maybe doesnt look like a lot but its quite important. Or that pl only won due to etana, even if it died.
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by roigon View Post
    Last year I flew cambion twice in practice matches against rote or exo, don't remember. I do remember we got dunked on hard and the ship dies surprisingly fast without logi reps.

    Yeah, its a strong ship, but its a hardly an I win button.

    Going hurf blurf warlords beat tuskers because of cambion is silly. Also from spectator it looked like tuskers where doing the right thing. See if you can break it, if not keep it tackled and ignore it and occasionally put some DMG on it to keep their logi honest. Essentially holding a 100b ship hostage.

    Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk
    going exodus only lost vs camel due to malice however isnt. And they always take up 1 or 2 bans, which maybe doesnt look like a lot but its quite important. Or that pl only won due to etana, even if it died.
    Next year CCP should do 2 bans that can be any ship and a third ban that is only AT ships. That might even the field a bit between the teams that can afford, and the teams that can't afford, AT ships.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iddo_Cohaagen View Post
    AT was fun. I give CCP an A+ for keeping things running so smoothly, even with two parallel matches going.
    That's a good point. Given what's happening behind the scenes, the execution of the matches has been very good. So kudos to the team behind that.

    However I will admit that the commentary desk has been lacking; the new guy (I'm sorry, I don't remember your name) just doesn't have the presence of Logibro or Soundwave.
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  7. #87
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    I slept on it and re-watched the match. I also felt like going torch & pitchfork against AT prize ships but I tend to shut up and think about stuff. After doing so, I think that our opinions are biased because of:
    - who doesn't side for the underdog
    - the malice & etana matches
    - limited info

    After some soul searching I'd say that, mechanically speaking, the match wouldn't have changed significantly if the cambions were hawks instead.

    On the psychological side things are different: at least twice tuskers tried the cambion tank, I don't think that they'd have done the same vs a scrammed AF. Especially at around 5' I have the sensation that their psychological impact changed the field decisions.

    So all in all I wouldn't change the cambion points - psychological impact shouldn't have a point cost imo. The AT prize ships might need some slight cost adjustments, but on a ship by ship basis rather than flat. (or perhaps, to keep points even, a balance pass? *ducks*)

    Anyhow. Huge kudos to tuskers for a great underdog match and also to warlords for keeping calm with half of their ships down.

    (btw, I for one hate ECM with a passion but this match proves it, if anything, balanced: how many rolls were rolled for a handful of jams, with all modules concentrated on the logi disregarding the support that shredded all the frigs?)
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  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankunytjatjara View Post
    On the psychological side things are different: at least twice tuskers tried the cambion tank, I don't think that they'd have done the same vs a scrammed AF... disregarding the support that shredded all the frigs)
    This isn't quite right - it was our Barghests that were killing Warlords' support ships, not the flycatchers and such (look at the mails - the Barghests do 80-90% of the damage each time). That comp has enough webs and painters for the Barghests to achieve essentially 100% damage application to tackled frigates and destroyers, which means that once it gets tackled and painted, enemy support eats ~2.5k dps with no mitigation and goes from yellowboxed to dead very very quickly indeed; when we tested it, they were melting pretty tanky AFs and T3Ds in around ten seconds. I think that the Cambions' superior EHP saved them - we pushed one of them into low shield, and it would probably have died before catching reps if it had been a regular AF with less EHP. Regardless, it was the sustained cruise/torp dps on our squishy Barghests and jams on the Basi that killed us, not really the Cambions; as I see it, our big mistakes were (i) not using our Hyena more aggressively to pursue their support and get their bombers down earlier, and (ii) not pulling back outside of the Widows' rather short jamming optimal once we'd killed their support. With less jamming pressure on our basi and less early dps pressure on the Barghests, it might have turned out differently. Oh well, so it goes.

    Of course, I may have it all wrong since I only saw the match from one side. I really don't envy the commentators and panel teams; it must be extremely difficult to get a reasonable picture of what's going on in a match from the limited information they have available, and then say sensible things about it.
    Last edited by Tafkat; August 30 2015 at 09:06:54 AM.

  9. #89
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    We weren't focusing on the Cambions much, I was more concerned about their SNI / Widow / Widow / Vulture / Basilisk core vs our Barghest / Barghest / Basilisk / Claymore core, as well as dropping their bombers to try to reduce the DPS incoming onto our Barghests as it was higher than expected (I am guessing their Widows were 3 BCU fit). We shot their Cambions just to test their tank in case they weren't full tackle + ECCM fit (which reduces their EHP very much) but that wasn't the case. As Tsu said, that 100% ehp compared to a Harpy pretty much meant that we couldn't kill them until their Basilisk was dead unless if he was napping as the first Cambion only got to about 30% shields.

    In hindsight, we should have started pulling away from their core once we had killed their bombers in order to get into Widow jammer fall-off but we had barely tested that comp. It might interest some people to know that comp was theorycrafted on Tuesday, practiced 3 times on Friday and then ran on Saturday. That low level of experience in it hurt us in quite a few small ways (the way the Hyena was piloted, the choice of CS we used etc.) but Hydra honestly brought the better comp as it was much better equipped to deal with tinkers, which ours had no chance against. That goes for whether they had Cambions or just Harpies. Very nicely theorycrafted together.

    I think the AT prize ships should cost a few more points on a ship by ship basis, some rough numbers:

    Malice for 6-7 points is still really quite competitive but you are trading out the 300-500 DPS you can get from a T3D for the neuts, rather than the 200 DPS you get from an AF which is a no-brainer upgrade.
    Cambion for 6 points makes it compete with the Jackdaw, which makes it a straight upgrade in a rocket configuration (apart from damage type selection) in terms of EHP / Speed / DPS.
    Etana for 16 points makes it compete with the Loki/Tengu, which is a good place for it to be considering it has much more rep range than them but a slightly lower local tank.

    The rest I'm not going to cover. Changing the bans just for AT ships just seems really messy and their biggest strength IMO is that they are just tremendous value for points, with an Etana allowing you an extra bomber compared to a Loki / Tengu, as well as the much larger rep range, Malice allowing for an extra 9 points worth of upgrades for the rest of your fleet compared to an Armour Curse etc.
    Last edited by Suleiman Shouaa; August 30 2015 at 01:13:51 PM.

  10. #90
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    I'd assume the point cost for AT ships is at the level they are because CCP want to see them fielded for added wow factor.

    Also, I doubt Genos would be fielding the same fleet with just harpies or hawks.

    If that was a barely tested comp the performance is doubly impressive considering the amount of time Genos, PL and other teams are known to put in to their various setups.
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  11. #91

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    I made a thing to commemorate our match against Afterlife and to illustrate the difference between what is seen and what is happening:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tafkat View Post
    I made a thing to commemorate our match against Afterlife and to illustrate the difference between what is seen and what is happening:

    that's some AT ad material for next year

  13. #93
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Tafkat again.
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    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

  14. #94
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    Cool WTF...

    I got shouted at too a little later.


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  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tafkat View Post
    I made a thing to commemorate our match against Afterlife and to illustrate the difference between what is seen and what is happening:

    We're clearly better than most teams, but the amount of stupid shit we do in practice and matches is pretty amazing sometimes (not singling out cool here; he is actually pretty reliable).

    Our last round of practices before the first weekend were so terrible that I was questioning whether we'd beat Quebec United Legions or CVA.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tafkat View Post
    This isn't quite right - it was our Barghests that were killing Warlords' support ships, not the flycatchers and such (look at the mails - the Barghests do 80-90% of the damage each time). That comp has enough webs and painters for the Barghests to achieve essentially 100% damage application to tackled frigates and destroyers, which means that once it gets tackled and painted, enemy support eats ~2.5k dps with no mitigation and goes from yellowboxed to dead very very quickly indeed; when we tested it, they were melting pretty tanky AFs and T3Ds in around ten seconds. I think that the Cambions' superior EHP saved them - we pushed one of them into low shield, and it would probably have died before catching reps if it had been a regular AF with less EHP. Regardless, it was the sustained cruise/torp dps on our squishy Barghests and jams on the Basi that killed us, not really the Cambions; as I see it, our big mistakes were (i) not using our Hyena more aggressively to pursue their support and get their bombers down earlier, and (ii) not pulling back outside of the Widows' rather short jamming optimal once we'd killed their support. With less jamming pressure on our basi and less early dps pressure on the Barghests, it might have turned out differently. Oh well, so it goes.

    Of course, I may have it all wrong since I only saw the match from one side. I really don't envy the commentators and panel teams; it must be extremely difficult to get a reasonable picture of what's going on in a match from the limited information they have available, and then say sensible things about it.
    Gets it right.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Spank View Post
    I'd assume the point cost for AT ships is at the level they are because CCP want to see them fielded for added wow factor.

    Also, I doubt Genos would be fielding the same fleet with just harpies or hawks.

    If that was a barely tested comp the performance is doubly impressive considering the amount of time Genos, PL and other teams are known to put in to their various setups.
    They will have a problem no doubt.

  18. #98
    Eshnala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iddo_Cohaagen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tafkat View Post
    I made a thing to commemorate our match against Afterlife and to illustrate the difference between what is seen and what is happening:

    We're clearly better than most teams, but the amount of stupid shit we do in practice and matches is pretty amazing sometimes (not singling out cool here; he is actually pretty reliable).

    Our last round of practices before the first weekend were so terrible that I was questioning whether we'd beat Quebec United Legions or CVA.
    We occasionaly have similar issues.

    Our fight vs Exodus this year was only that close because we fucked up big right at the start when we failed to tackle the 2nd phoon, which in return cost us all our rep drones and thus loosing our logi so quickly.
    Last year it was the match vs MIF where 1-2 people boundaried, our Kitsune decided that moving is overrated and he would rather cuddle with the enemy (which took them like 2 minutes to realize that they had a Kitsune sitting right in the middle of them) and one of our damp pilots decided that he wanted to see what guns the enemy had from up-close and so he burned towards the enemy at the start, instead of burning away.

    Fuck-ups happen to all of us.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eshnala View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Iddo_Cohaagen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tafkat View Post
    I made a thing to commemorate our match against Afterlife and to illustrate the difference between what is seen and what is happening:

    We're clearly better than most teams, but the amount of stupid shit we do in practice and matches is pretty amazing sometimes (not singling out cool here; he is actually pretty reliable).

    Our last round of practices before the first weekend were so terrible that I was questioning whether we'd beat Quebec United Legions or CVA.
    We occasionaly have similar issues.

    Our fight vs Exodus this year was only that close because we fucked up big right at the start when we failed to tackle the 2nd phoon, which in return cost us all our rep drones and thus loosing our logi so quickly.
    Last year it was the match vs MIF where 1-2 people boundaried, our Kitsune decided that moving is overrated and he would rather cuddle with the enemy (which took them like 2 minutes to realize that they had a Kitsune sitting right in the middle of them) and one of our damp pilots decided that he wanted to see what guns the enemy had from up-close and so he burned towards the enemy at the start, instead of burning away.

    Fuck-ups happen to all of us.
    Ahem http://puu.sh/jUO90/7c49b15822.jpg

  20. #100
    Eshnala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Eshnala View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Iddo_Cohaagen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tafkat View Post
    I made a thing to commemorate our match against Afterlife and to illustrate the difference between what is seen and what is happening:

    We're clearly better than most teams, but the amount of stupid shit we do in practice and matches is pretty amazing sometimes (not singling out cool here; he is actually pretty reliable).

    Our last round of practices before the first weekend were so terrible that I was questioning whether we'd beat Quebec United Legions or CVA.
    We occasionaly have similar issues.

    Our fight vs Exodus this year was only that close because we fucked up big right at the start when we failed to tackle the 2nd phoon, which in return cost us all our rep drones and thus loosing our logi so quickly.
    Last year it was the match vs MIF where 1-2 people boundaried, our Kitsune decided that moving is overrated and he would rather cuddle with the enemy (which took them like 2 minutes to realize that they had a Kitsune sitting right in the middle of them) and one of our damp pilots decided that he wanted to see what guns the enemy had from up-close and so he burned towards the enemy at the start, instead of burning away.

    Fuck-ups happen to all of us.
    Ahem http://puu.sh/jUO90/7c49b15822.jpg
    m8.

    The match was over at that point anyways :P

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