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Thread: AT XIII Day 4 chat/prediction/betting/shitposting

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keeves View Post
    "I think you can replace anything on this team, broadswords are so good"

    I died laughing.
    saving our broadsword setup for PL matches

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suleiman Shouaa View Post
    Sure - you probably wouldn't go for the logi trade if you had a Vengeance instead of the Malice, but I'm not sure what else would have been as effective as they had enough tacklers to get ontop of your AB Logi without too much difficulty.
    On CAMELS logi, m8. Thanks.

    In the retrospective, I think camels did their biggest mistake exactly because of the malice presense (which gave them false feeling of ~something~, which costed them logi). Exodus guys probably know what the mistake is.
    Last edited by Kadesh; August 24 2015 at 12:26:24 AM.

  3. #63
    W0lf Crendraven's Avatar
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    The entire discussion about eve as an esport and if it can be made more fun to watch and so on is utterly pointless as long the tournament itself at the moment is so horibly imbalanced due to a very select few ships beeing only avaibale to a very select few groups or people who have the isk to easily buy ships worth more then any titan.

    You have the logi that tanks about as much as a tengu if fit for it with 75km ranged large remote reps, is a basilisk with 50% more ehp and activate tank and way way better cap if you want or some weird mixture of both. The logi is the most important piece of any at team bar a very few logiless ones - some team having access to a way better one is retarded.

    Then you have the vengeance that tanks even more, so its virtually unkillable, which if its in range neuts about as much as a curse but with small neut cycle time so injects are even worse then against a curse. A curse is 13 points, a vengeance is 4 - malice is 4. As seen by the camel match it can take a team that has pretty much lost and still give them a win just by its opness.

    Then you have the shield svipul with more ehp, that tanks more, has absurd mobility deals the same dps for 2 points less, by far the least op of the bunch but the cambion still is absurdly good.

    They either totally warp matches to the person that has them or they eat up bans which in turn weakens the team that basicely has to start without bans (although that isnt as broken).



    At ships make for good watching as if they die a titan dies - but they make for terrible games. As marram said in a tournament which only allows t2 mods, no fancy implants and has a token 1 flagship which can be blinged having 140+bil ships is a joke.




    Now the last time i brought this up people always come with the same excuse if you are better you can still win, just outplay them and you will be fine. That is true if bad teams had them, against a team like pl or hydra or camel having to beat them in a 12v12 is hard enough just by skill, having to start at a severe disadvantage and then having to totally outplay them to win is all the much harder.


    in short BAN AT SHIPS FROM THE AT!
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  4. #64
    Donor Verite Rendition's Avatar
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    I had never really considered that point before, but it's a really good point. It's one thing to fight over talent (which never was or never will be equal), but teams having access to different gear and some teams having better gear really takes away from the sport of it all.

    I've having a hard time thinking of any major sport where there's a real equipment discrepancy like this. Soccer, baseball, DOTA 2; everyone tends to enforce a system where either all gear is provided, or gear is a trivial cost relative to operations and talent.
    Last edited by Verite Rendition; August 24 2015 at 09:05:14 AM.
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  5. #65
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    There's a point to it, but as far as I can remember the last Camel match was the first match I've seen where an AT ship really swung the match.

    Imo it's not about expensive stuff that other teams might not be able to field, because winning the game by isk is still a fair way of winning in Eve. But it's stuff that's simply unavailable to other teams, like AT ships. Even though it's fun to see them fielded and banning them might reduce their usability on TQ close to nil. Call me a risk averse pussy, but I probably wouldn't dare to undock such a pinata in Amamake.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    The entire discussion about eve as an esport and if it can be made more fun to watch and so on is utterly pointless as long the tournament itself at the moment is so horibly imbalanced due to a very select few ships beeing only avaibale to a very select few groups or people who have the isk to easily buy ships worth more then any titan.
    If they're so unbalanced, why aren't triumvirate bringing them to win the matches? I'm pretty sure they have quite a few uniques from the list.

    I like how some people are buttmad about uniques, completely forgetting that ANY connection between 'persistent universe' and its assets and tournament is 'pay2win'. Flagships (which can cost more than uniques, our flagship from at12 costed more than etana easily), pool of all 5 characters, regular ships, ammo, implants. I imagine running AT team with relatively new characters with 10b in funds is not the same as running well-established AT team where you have all that.

    So, to make it even, you have to completely break any connections between persistent universe - TQ - and run the tourney on a test/special server with free items and all 5 characters, like fanfest tournaments or worlds collide.

    Saying that uniques are pay2win is plain wrong, they may multiply your force in certain cases, but if you have no force to begin with (dedicated group of people who are able to run the team in efficient manner, and people who attend the practices and can execute), they are not going to let you do anything special. But really, same applies to many other things, e.g. all 5 chars, implants, flagships. I wouldn't be surprised if set of 3% implants and navy mindlinks has much greater impact on fight than, say, 1 unique ship in most setups/matchups.

  7. #67
    W0lf Crendraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    The entire discussion about eve as an esport and if it can be made more fun to watch and so on is utterly pointless as long the tournament itself at the moment is so horibly imbalanced due to a very select few ships beeing only avaibale to a very select few groups or people who have the isk to easily buy ships worth more then any titan.
    If they're so unbalanced, why aren't triumvirate bringing them to win the matches? I'm pretty sure they have quite a few uniques from the list.

    I like how some people are buttmad about uniques, completely forgetting that ANY connection between 'persistent universe' and its assets and tournament is 'pay2win'. Flagships (which can cost more than uniques, our flagship from at12 costed more than etana easily), pool of all 5 characters, regular ships, ammo, implants. I imagine running AT team with relatively new characters with 10b in funds is not the same as running well-established AT team where you have all that.

    So, to make it even, you have to completely break any connections between persistent universe - TQ - and run the tourney on a test/special server with free items and all 5 characters, like fanfest tournaments or worlds collide.

    Saying that uniques are pay2win is plain wrong, they may multiply your force in certain cases, but if you have no force to begin with (dedicated group of people who are able to run the team in efficient manner, and people who attend the practices and can execute), they are not going to let you do anything special. But really, same applies to many other things, e.g. all 5 chars, implants, flagships. I wouldn't be surprised if set of 3% implants and navy mindlinks has much greater impact on fight than, say, 1 unique ship in most setups/matchups.
    The point is that if you have 2 teams, both with characters with all V skills, reasonable at funds, flagships, implants and so on - and many teams do have that, having another force multiplier ontop of that IS paytowin.



    And i agree, flagships should circumvent bans, but should also be t2 fits and no more.





    I also dislike that you know they are pay to win, that you use them themselves and know 100% why they are broken and still defend them like that, i know its eve but at least show some sportsmanship.
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  8. #68
    Donor Verite Rendition's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    If they're so unbalanced, why aren't triumvirate bringing them to win the matches? I'm pretty sure they have quite a few uniques from the list
    Like any gear, gear alone can't decide a match. Talent still counts for a lot, perhaps just not as much as it should. Plus AT ships are very expensive (if only in an opportunity cost sense), and winning the AT by spending hundreds of billions on ships probably isn't a very good strategy given the current mechanisms of the AT.

    So, to make it even, you have to completely break any connections between persistent universe - TQ - and run the tourney on a test/special server with free items and all 5 characters, like fanfest tournaments or worlds collide.
    I think I'd be okay with that. World's Collide was a lot of fun. Granted, so is seeing Etanas blow up, but I think I'd pick the sport over large ISK losses at this point...
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  9. #69
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    It's not the AT ships that are broken, just their point value. I definitely think they should not only be allowed in AT, but encouraged. However their point value needs to be greatly increased, something like a malice should easily cost the same points as a recon, perhaps more. Make it so that bringing an AT ship is something that needs to be seriously considered (points wise) instead of an easy substitute to an assault frigate.


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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keeves View Post
    It's not the AT ships that are broken, just their point value. I definitely think they should not only be allowed in AT, but encouraged. However their point value needs to be greatly increased, something like a malice should easily cost the same points as a recon, perhaps more. Make it so that bringing an AT ship is something that needs to be seriously considered (points wise) instead of an easy substitute to an assault frigate.
    That is a big part of it. The etana being so much better than a basilisk or tengu for T2 logi points, or the malice being a frigate sized curse with 12km neuts and cruiser ehp for AF points is hilariously broken.


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  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    I also dislike that you know they are pay to win, that you use them themselves and know 100% why they are broken and still defend them like that, i know its eve but at least show some sportsmanship.
    Don't even try to distort my words and thoughts. Uniques are not pay2win, they are force multipliers - just like any other component from the list. All of them require time and/or ISK to acquire.

    If you think any team has all that, besides uniques - you must be overlooking teams which usually place 33-64. Many of higher tier teams already possess uniques or have sufficient funds to acquire them (look at dem supercaps). So apparently you care mostly about poor middle-tier teams, why?

  12. #72
    W0lf Crendraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    I also dislike that you know they are pay to win, that you use them themselves and know 100% why they are broken and still defend them like that, i know its eve but at least show some sportsmanship.
    Don't even try to distort my words and thoughts. Uniques are not pay2win, they are force multipliers - just like any other component from the list. All of them require time and/or ISK to acquire.

    If you think any team has all that, besides uniques - you must be overlooking teams which usually place 33-64. Many of higher tier teams already possess uniques or have sufficient funds to acquire them (look at dem supercaps). So apparently you care mostly about poor middle-tier teams, why?
    A force multiplier only one side gets or you have to pay absurd amounts for money for is pay2win. Its pay isk to win, not pay Money but it still is pay to win. You can have a entire at run for the price of a single etana or malice if you dont really all out bling your flagship.

    Any other force multiplier as you call them is something every team can get fairly easily, getting at ship however is not easy.




    I agree with others that running the at on sisi or on a 3rd server would be way better then on tq though.
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  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Any other force multiplier as you call them is something every team can get fairly easily
    That's very bold assumption. For example, AT requires very specific character skill set, e.g. combat-capable ships with maxed out ewar, some character classes, like command ship pilots (all links 5, combat skills, ewar, drones, support for all of that), can easily limit what you can field and what cannot.

    Being unable to spend 80b on a malice (if you think it's a sure-win, of course), when you have spent ~20-25b on AT itself and ~10-15 on flagship (and you have quite a few 'spare' supercaps, or quite a few members with decent income) also sounds quite unrealistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    I agree with others that running the at on sisi or on a 3rd server would be way better then on tq though.
    It would be fair indeed, but i am unsure if it's good for viewers (they like 'real', preferably expensive ships exploding) and if that's what CCP wants.
    Last edited by Kadesh; August 24 2015 at 11:05:21 AM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadesh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Any other force multiplier as you call them is something every team can get fairly easily
    That's very bold assumption. For example, AT requires very specific character skill set, e.g. combat-capable ships with maxed out ewar, some character classes, like command ship pilots (all links 5, combat skills, ewar, drones, support for all of that), can easily limit what you can field and what cannot.

    Being unable to spend 80b on a malice (if you think it's a sure-win, of course), when you have spent ~20-25b on AT itself and ~10-15 on flagship (and you have quite a few 'spare' supercaps, or quite a few members with decent income) also sounds quite unrealistic.
    You can easily get combat capable people though, just ask for them and they usually will come (hell even the forum teams for the neos or so werent that bad), and if those die they dont go away, nothing absurd is at risk here. Spending 100bil or so on a at ship which can die is obviously no problem for teams that have come first or third at least once, spending 100bil is a huge problem for quite a few teams.

    While little can be done for the all V skills departement bar hosting the at on a different server (which would be much better from a esports pov) simply banning the at ships is a easy improvement to the esports side of the AT.


    Either ban them flatout and go crazy on the bonuses which imho is way better or adjust the point cost severely.
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  15. #75

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    AT is not the real esport for EVE thing, the Open tournament is. IIRC CCP said they like the connexion of the AT with EVE. It's called *alliance* tournament for a reason.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    getting at ship however is not easy.
    Yea, if only they were for sale openly all year round or something.


    I mean your argument basically amounts to " i want to race F1 cars but buying an F1 car is expensive so can we slow everybody else down to keep up with my Accord?"


    Tourney ships are fine, unless you're wolf here who's constant complaint over the years is that variety is killing eve and there should be less ships and a more even playing ground for all to prove who's king of the mountain.


    Mostly in my belief due to him being too stupid to use his imagination with all the tools currently given us.
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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    Tourney ships are fine, unless you're wolf here who's constant complaint over the years is that variety is killing eve and there should be less ships and a more even playing ground for all to prove who's king of the mountain.
    Do you agree with their points values? Or should they be increased to scale with their effectiveness?
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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    " i want to race F1 cars but buying an F1 car is expensive so can we slow everybody else down to keep up with my Accord?"
    That's called NASCAR.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Marram View Post
    Considering CCP want to reduce cost for newer teams by limiting implants, drones and boosters, then allow AT ships, it is utterly stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliventi View Post
    Better buy an Etana now. In a few ATs there won't be any left.
    The PL battle cry on Reddit last night was "Lose one to win 50!"

    AT ships have swung lots of matches before, it was just a lot more visible last night. Most of the rest of the time an AT swings a match, it's because a opposing team loses because they're not even fully aware of the AT ship's capabilities or they're distracted by it or they forget they're in a tournament match and they devote all their resources to trying to kill the AT ship for the moral victory.

    The final way AT ships swing matches is the sales of ATs allow you to acquire better comps and better pilots (the latter being attracted to alliances that have a good chance of winning AT ships).
    Ripard Teg (among others)... what's our new alliance called again?
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  20. #80
    W0lf Crendraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grath View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    getting at ship however is not easy.
    Yea, if only they were for sale openly all year round or something.


    I mean your argument basically amounts to " i want to race F1 cars but buying an F1 car is expensive so can we slow everybody else down to keep up with my Accord?"


    Tourney ships are fine, unless you're wolf here who's constant complaint over the years is that variety is killing eve and there should be less ships and a more even playing ground for all to prove who's king of the mountain.


    Mostly in my belief due to him being too stupid to use his imagination with all the tools currently given us.
    The f1 car analogy is actually really good, atm the at is like formula one, a very few select team compete because they can actually afford to build the perfect f1 car, there are a few other team that compete but they will never win simply because they cant afford to build the perfect car and everyone one else doesnt even have a shot. You can take the best pilots and put them into a shitty team that cant afford the price of the perfect car and they still wont win. The piloting skill simply is so similar that the car itself is way more important then a pilot beeing 1 or 2% better. hamilton losing to vettel constantly and it now beeing the other way round isnt due to sudden giant driving changes - its due to the better car winning.


    So if formula one is like the current format with at ships, flagships and so on then you have nascar where the entry for players is lower but still quite high (i.e flagship and general tourney cost). Lastly you have soccer/dota2/lol/rugby/tennis as a (e)sport, where the entry to compete is almost 0 but you have to have the talent and the theory(crafting).


    It just depends on where you want to see eve, and as formula one is dying and all other esport and esports wannabe games compete on a even level i think the alliance tournament is fairly bad as it is right now, adjusting point cost would be a step in the rigth direction but AT ships will always be either to good or not used at all. Removing at ships from the at is a step in the right direction, removing flagships fitting options would also be good and lastly making every ship and mod used free (i.e a different server) would finally allow everyone to compete at the same level.


    Currently the At is like 3 or 4 teams start with the Hand of Baron buff the second the match starts making it extremely hard for similarly skilled opponents to win.



    I also really dont get your adversity (yours and the few camel/hydra folks who commented about the issue) to banning them, if you are better then everyone else you ought to win via that and not due to broken ships carrying you.
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