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Thread: Carrier FAQ

  1. #21

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    someone explain how pantheon fits are supposed to work tia

  2. #22
    Donor Sponk's Avatar
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    Like Guardians, but bigger, and with really big drones.
    Contract stuff to Seraphina Amaranth.

    "You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say - of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position. Ever."


  3. #23

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    oh, okay, that makes sense

  4. #24
    zangorus's Avatar
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    This is a good fred good read

  5. #25

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  6. #26
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogs View Post
    Topic needs to be burnt.. The less noobs know about capitals the better.. If you dont know the basics of them be the time you get one then you either bought your character and RMT'd the isk, or you are not in a position to ever use it.
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  7. #27
    Super Moderator DonorGlobal Moderator whispous's Avatar
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    I like killing chimeras (it's always chimeras and phoenixes, because noobs ALWAYS have caldari spec mains) on hisec gates as they try and jump out

  8. #28
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    So what's the new names of the implants for triage carriers/remote capital assistance modules?

    Inherent Implants 'Squire' Energy Systems Operation EO-60x
    Inherent Implants 'Noble' Remote Armor Repair Systems RA-70x / Inherent Implants 'Squire' Energy Emission Systems ES-70x
    Zainou 'Gnome' Shield Emission Systems SE-80x / Inherent Implants 'Squire' Energy Management EM-80x

    Or do the armour & shield ones not work on capital modules (were there capital-specific armour rr ones?)?

    Also how about RP-90x, Imp. N. Modified 'Noble', Numons, SM-70x, SP-90x?
    Last edited by Daneel Trevize; December 13 2012 at 02:04:05 PM.

  9. #29
    Movember 2012 Warmenhoven's Avatar
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    Combat carrier nub here (as in mine gets used purely for logistics and thats it):

    Having been on a handful of carrier kills and being one of those weird people who are effectively playing Logi Online, I get that cap >> anything else provided you're not fit like a total bollock brain, I also know that when jumping into a fight you start off with 33% cap and that a propper traige carrier is an archon with CCCs, CRs and CPRs getting its regen to circa +500 (iirc).

    So the first question is would fitting a (shield tanked armour repping) nid for cap amount rather than regen be effective? (again iirc) The nid can get to about double the total cap amount of the archon, giving a larger buffer before it is neuted dry and seeing as once your'e dry there's pretty much no coming back with a neut ship latched on would this not be a viable way of prolonging you're ability to support the fleet? I guess this is assuming that given this extra time you're fleet would be able to pull victory from the jaws of defeat. The second point to this would be that seeing as you're jumping in at 33% and most likely immediately going to work you're past peak regen anyway so maybe cap amount rather than regen would be more beneficial?

    Second question: why is fitting cap boosters bad? you get about +400 regen with 5 true sansha fitted making neuts less of a problem, plus seeing as with a regen carrier you are past peak regen from the word go might the actual regen not be about the same? This also allows you to fill you're lows with tank mods giving more buffer and possibly the ability to only have to pulse your reps which again would decrease the strain on cap (assuming the incoming DPS wouldnt have broken the tank of the normal setup).

    Seeing as i'm not experienced at all in these matters i'm sure i've missed some things but i don't understand why it's seen as such a terrible idea and would love for someone to actually explain it to me.

  10. #30
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    Equally nub here, but I'd expect:

    cargo, can't carry enough 800s to last more than a couple of cycles. Lowsec gank dreads may do this trick with a higher chance of being able to jump out after cycle, carriers not so much. Even if you do turn the tide and down any neut threats in the first cycle, you can't keep being useful for long and instead become a liability.

    combat refitting option if not solo. Just jump in with a higher cap regen fit and delay refitting for tank for as long as possible. Cargo space being saved for a capital module or 2.

    But yeah I've occasionally pondered 'semiconductor memory cell' rigged capitals.

    P.S. isn't a shield-tanked nid(/any carrier) really fucking weak w.r.t. tank? Like, <10k dps even with vulture/tengu, while 2xCAR it could break 30k tanked in armour?
    Last edited by Daneel Trevize; January 8 2013 at 05:31:17 PM.

  11. #31
    Movember 2012 Warmenhoven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Equally nub here, but I'd expect:

    cargo, can't carry enough 800s to last more than a couple of cycles. Lowsec gank dreads may do this trick with a higher chance of being able to jump out after cycle, carriers not so much. Even if you do turn the tide and down any neut threats in the first cycle, you can't keep being useful for long and instead become a liability.

    combat refitting option if not solo. Just jump in with a higher cap regen fit and delay refitting for tank for as long as possible. Cargo space being saved for a capital module or 2.

    But yeah I've occasionally pondered 'semiconductor memory cell' rigged capitals.
    I can see that both approaches are 'win in the first cycle' kinda fits, which i presume is in a large part the answer to my question. But then again i expect that to be true for most lowsec fights.....actually come to think of it my perception of time gets really warped during so don't hold me to that statement =p

    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    P.S. isn't a shield-tanked nid(/any carrier) really fucking weak w.r.t. tank? Like, <10k dps even with vulture/tengu, while 2xCAR it could break 30k tanked in armour?
    erm the fits i've warriored up have just over 9K tank (all CPRs in the low and CCC rigs, full mid tank) or just over 11K (all PDSs in the low SCM rigs, full mid tank) both without links/pills. Also how are you fitting the dual CAR one as i really struggle armour tanking and fitting CRARs due to PG issues.

  12. #32
    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warmenhoven View Post
    So the first question is would fitting a (shield tanked armour repping) nid for cap amount rather than regen be effective? (again iirc) The nid can get to about double the total cap amount of the archon, giving a larger buffer before it is neuted dry and seeing as once your'e dry there's pretty much no coming back with a neut ship latched on would this not be a viable way of prolonging you're ability to support the fleet? I guess this is assuming that given this extra time you're fleet would be able to pull victory from the jaws of defeat. The second point to this would be that seeing as you're jumping in at 33% and most likely immediately going to work you're past peak regen anyway so maybe cap amount rather than regen would be more beneficial?
    When fit for overall cap the Nid only has 20k more cap than the Archon, so no, doesn't get double. Either ship isn't going to have enough cap to last through the first triage cycle when fit for max cap. When properly fit for max regen, after you begin repping, you're still able to run two RRs on the Archon and gain cap, or one on the Niddy. You're right cap is life, but you seem to be seeing it wrong. With regen, the opponent needs to bring enough neut power to break your regen, which isn't just a few neut frigs, it's more than one proper Bhaalgorn. Once that amount of neut power hits the field, your cap is going to drop quick, no matter how you're fit. Cap batteries can mitigate it a bit, but not really enough to matter. The only real way to deal with that kind of neut power is triage weaving.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warmenhoven View Post
    Second question: why is fitting cap boosters bad? you get about +400 regen with 5 true sansha fitted making neuts less of a problem, plus seeing as with a regen carrier you are past peak regen from the word go might the actual regen not be about the same? This also allows you to fill you're lows with tank mods giving more buffer and possibly the ability to only have to pulse your reps which again would decrease the strain on cap (assuming the incoming DPS wouldnt have broken the tank of the normal setup).
    Cap booster fits aren't bad necessarily, just annoying to deal with. You're going to be handling at least 1000 stront in your fuel bay, and whatever fuel you need for jump in and jump out. Add to that you'll need to carry your spare fittings and such(one of each hardener, drugs, etc) and all of the cap boosters you can. You can only carry 35 in your cargo, so depending upon what else you've got, you might only have a triage cycle's worth of boosters. You also will need to pull from your fleet hanger into your cargo to try and manage that while keeping up with reps, and when your fleet hanger runs dry, you'll need to have haulers filled with cap boosters in your SMA and pull from those(can you still do that?). It's not exactly easy. You're also not getting much of an advantage from doing that, as the cap can still be easily neuted away when there's that much neut power on the field. Yes, you can inject as you need to rep, and it will work, it's just a lot of trouble for not much gain. Additionally, you lose overall cap ability for what's basically a what if situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warmenhoven View Post
    erm the fits i've warriored up have just over 9K tank (all CPRs in the low and CCC rigs, full mid tank) or just over 11K (all PDSs in the low SCM rigs, full mid tank) both without links/pills. Also how are you fitting the dual CAR one as i really struggle armour tanking and fitting CRARs due to PG issues.
    The niddy basically has to always tank opposite to it's reps, so it sucks in that regard.

  13. #33
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    2xCAR Nids:
      Spoiler:
    [Nidhoggur, triage? armour 1 eanm, 2 CAR Ganked]

    Capital Armor Repairer I
    Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
    Damage Control II
    Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
    Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
    Capital Armor Repairer I

    Cap Recharger II
    Cap Recharger II
    Cap Recharger II
    Cap Recharger II
    Cap Recharger II

    Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
    Large Energy Transfer Array II
    Triage Module II
    Capital Shield Transporter I
    Capital Remote Armor Repair System I

    Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
    Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
    Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

      Spoiler:
    [Nidhoggur, triage? armour more resists, 2 CAR Ganked]

    Capital Armor Repairer I
    Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
    Damage Control II
    Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
    Corelum C-Type Energized Explosive Membrane
    Capital Armor Repairer I

    Cap Recharger II
    Cap Recharger II
    Cap Recharger II
    Cap Recharger II
    Cap Recharger II

    Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
    Large Energy Transfer Array II
    Triage Module II
    Capital Shield Transporter I
    Capital Remote Armor Repair System I

    Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
    Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
    Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


    I was trying to make the shield-tank ones stable while also repping with 1 RR(using a CS with 3 on-tank links + 1 off-tank cap reduction one). Even looked at flux coils because dat CPR boost penalty. Perhaps there's a better solution with more resists and/or boost amps rather than cap regen, but I didn't find it for a dirt-cheap suicide fit.

    IIRC the thanny can do exactly the same tank as the Nid in armour, for different em & explo resists.
    Last edited by Daneel Trevize; January 8 2013 at 07:38:27 PM.

  14. #34
    Movember 2012 Warmenhoven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
      Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by Warmenhoven View Post
    So the first question is would fitting a (shield tanked armour repping) nid for cap amount rather than regen be effective? (again iirc) The nid can get to about double the total cap amount of the archon, giving a larger buffer before it is neuted dry and seeing as once your'e dry there's pretty much no coming back with a neut ship latched on would this not be a viable way of prolonging you're ability to support the fleet? I guess this is assuming that given this extra time you're fleet would be able to pull victory from the jaws of defeat. The second point to this would be that seeing as you're jumping in at 33% and most likely immediately going to work you're past peak regen anyway so maybe cap amount rather than regen would be more beneficial?


    When fit for overall cap the Nid only has 20k more cap than the Archon, so no, doesn't get double. Either ship isn't going to have enough cap to last through the first triage cycle when fit for max cap. When properly fit for max regen, after you begin repping, you're still able to run two RRs on the Archon and gain cap, or one on the Niddy. You're right cap is life, but you seem to be seeing it wrong. With regen, the opponent needs to bring enough neut power to break your regen, which isn't just a few neut frigs, it's more than one proper Bhaalgorn. Once that amount of neut power hits the field, your cap is going to drop quick, no matter how you're fit. Cap batteries can mitigate it a bit, but not really enough to matter. The only real way to deal with that kind of neut power is triage weaving.
    Internets down at my home so having to remember EFT stats but here goes:

    The nid fit for max cap get 140K with Semi rigs and all PDUs in the lows (the double was from using std mindflood putting it up to 160K which was the source of my error) with the archon at 80K fit for max regen (unless i have the fit wrong? CCC rigs, cap rechargers in the mids and all the lows except for 2CARs and 1INEANM?) I see your point about the bhaals, they drain a lot less than i thought at only ~300GJ/s and with an archon at +~700 that means it can run a cap mod and still gain cap, which is something the nid can only dream of and doing some of the maths on the cap buffer fit you can still only run one RR for 2min after jump in with a bhall on you which is piss poor. Added to that fact is the single self repper not benefiting from links as much as the dual rep on a archon so once legions/tengus get factored in the archon massively outclasses it there too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
      Spoiler:

    Quote Originally Posted by Warmenhoven View Post
    Second question: why is fitting cap boosters bad? you get about +400 regen with 5 true sansha fitted making neuts less of a problem, plus seeing as with a regen carrier you are past peak regen from the word go might the actual regen not be about the same? This also allows you to fill you're lows with tank mods giving more buffer and possibly the ability to only have to pulse your reps which again would decrease the strain on cap (assuming the incoming DPS wouldnt have broken the tank of the normal setup).


    Cap booster fits aren't bad necessarily, just annoying to deal with. You're going to be handling at least 1000 stront in your fuel bay, and whatever fuel you need for jump in and jump out. Add to that you'll need to carry your spare fittings and such(one of each hardener, drugs, etc) and all of the cap boosters you can. You can only carry 35 in your cargo, so depending upon what else you've got, you might only have a triage cycle's worth of boosters. You also will need to pull from your fleet hanger into your cargo to try and manage that while keeping up with reps, and when your fleet hanger runs dry, you'll need to have haulers filled with cap boosters in your SMA and pull from those(can you still do that?). It's not exactly easy. You're also not getting much of an advantage from doing that, as the cap can still be easily neuted away when there's that much neut power on the field. Yes, you can inject as you need to rep, and it will work, it's just a lot of trouble for not much gain. Additionally, you lose overall cap ability for what's basically a what if situation.
    Thing is this is the only way i can see the nid being slightly usefull as with mids full of cap boosters you can forgo any other cap mods (they don't really make that much diff in the regen iirc) meaning you can focus all those other slots for tank instead which possibly allows for a single CAR to keep up with the dual CAR fitted on the archon for half the cap cost + a substantial gain in EHP over other nids as well as taking reps better yourself. Do you think the buffer + tank would be enough to get out of triage? If it would could this not be quite a powerful combo given that the nid also has a RR bonus ontop of higher resits in this format? I guess the amount of cap charges then comes into play though which would be quite limiting....can you drag items from drop cans into your corporate hanger?

    working with normal 800s you can fit 26 into your cargo (845/32) and about 300 in your corp hanger (10,000/32 and leaving 400m3 of other mods etc.)
    working with TS injectors holding 4 charges and reloading in 10s you're using up five charges every 13.75 seconds (five because you have 5 injectors)
    (326/5)*13.75 = 896.5 seconds or 15min of continuous boosting.....

    which is totally not as bad as i was expecting (unless i have the maths completely wrong)

    If the only major down side is the extra work required i think it's a route im more happy to take than the shield tanked ones. Or do you not see it working at all?

  15. #35
    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warmenhoven View Post
    Internets down at my home so having to remember EFT stats but here goes:

    The nid fit for max cap get 140K with Semi rigs and all PDUs in the lows (the double was from using std mindflood putting it up to 160K which was the source of my error) with the archon at 80K fit for max regen (unless i have the fit wrong? CCC rigs, cap rechargers in the mids and all the lows except for 2CARs and 1INEANM?) I see your point about the bhaals, they drain a lot less than i thought at only ~300GJ/s and with an archon at +~700 that means it can run a cap mod and still gain cap, which is something the nid can only dream of and doing some of the maths on the cap buffer fit you can still only run one RR for 2min after jump in with a bhall on you which is piss poor. Added to that fact is the single self repper not benefiting from links as much as the dual rep on a archon so once legions/tengus get factored in the archon massively outclasses it there too.
    You're comparing apples to oranges. If you're going to go overall cap, then compare to the Archon's overall cap fit too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warmenhoven View Post
    Thing is this is the only way i can see the nid being slightly usefull as with mids full of cap boosters you can forgo any other cap mods (they don't really make that much diff in the regen iirc) meaning you can focus all those other slots for tank instead which possibly allows for a single CAR to keep up with the dual CAR fitted on the archon for half the cap cost + a substantial gain in EHP over other nids as well as taking reps better yourself. Do you think the buffer + tank would be enough to get out of triage? If it would could this not be quite a powerful combo given that the nid also has a RR bonus ontop of higher resits in this format? I guess the amount of cap charges then comes into play though which would be quite limiting....can you drag items from drop cans into your corporate hanger?

    working with normal 800s you can fit 26 into your cargo (845/32) and about 300 in your corp hanger (10,000/32 and leaving 400m3 of other mods etc.)
    working with TS injectors holding 4 charges and reloading in 10s you're using up five charges every 13.75 seconds (five because you have 5 injectors)
    (326/5)*13.75 = 896.5 seconds or 15min of continuous boosting.....

    which is totally not as bad as i was expecting (unless i have the maths completely wrong)

    If the only major down side is the extra work required i think it's a route im more happy to take than the shield tanked ones. Or do you not see it working at all?
    You're still not cap stable even boosting. So you'll have to be really good at managing boosts with reps. The Niddy really is in need of more slots, since it kinda sucks otherwise.

  16. #36
    Tetsuo's Avatar
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    Training my alt into a carrier mostly for logistics purposes (moving ships, not repping) and I'm getting to be about that time (completing adv spaceship command) where I have to specialize into one of the racial carriers. Now, while any carrier can be a flying suitcase, there is the possibility that someway down the line I'll want to use it for small gang triage and then I'll be saying "shit, why did I waste time training a chimera?".

    So what I'm wondering is are the carriers aside from the Archon viable for small gang triage purposes? The Nid looks like it might be viable 'cause it's got a bonus to armour as well as shield reps, or is it pretty much a "if you have the choice you should train Archon" kind of scenario?


    Full disclosure - I'm trying to avoid the Archon just because I don't want to spend that kind of ISK on a ship that looks like shit :/


    EDIT: NM, found this;

    http://failheap-challenge.com/showth...arrier-Rundown

    Gonna do a Thanny and hope I never regret it
    Last edited by Tetsuo; September 10 2013 at 05:35:59 PM.

  17. #37
    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tetsuo View Post
    Gonna do a Thanny and hope I never regret it
    Changes in the meta made the Thanny the worst carrier out there. No seriously, it's the absolute worst for pretty much everything. If you're serious that you might make use of it at some point as triage, the Archon is the best out there, by far. If you EVER plan to make some kind of use of your carrier other than a suitcase, pick anything other than a Thanny.

  18. #38
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    Alright good to know, looks like Archon it is.

    What changed to make Thannies so shitty from what I understood was a "decent at lots of things but not great" role that it used to occupy?

  19. #39
    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tetsuo View Post
    Alright good to know, looks like Archon it is.

    What changed to make Thannies so shitty from what I understood was a "decent at lots of things but not great" role that it used to occupy?
    The general EVE populous realized how good the Archon was. It used to be that a triage Thanny was alright, because not everyone had Archons. Besides, it's not like anyone knew what to do about a triage carrier anyway. Especially for small gang, dropping triage usually meant they either tried shooting everything or the triage to no avail then bailing, or just bailing. No one knew how to counter a triage carrier, or if they did, they didn't have the assets and they didn't want to escalate with dreads.

    In today's EVE, everyone knows how to counter triage, and in any random gang of 10, at least one person will have a Bhaal for just such an occasion. Worse yet, combat carriers no longer care about fighters, very rarely do people even launch fighters anymore, it's all about the sentry drones.

    The Thanny still does everything with mediocrity, but especially when giving a choice, why would you pick the worst? Most organized groups these days are trading Thannies for Archons on a program. Trade in your Not-An-Archon carrier and get an Archon and the skillbook required to fly it in return. The carrier discrepancy is that bad.

  20. #40
    HEY LOOK AT ME I HAVE A TITAN LordsServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tetsuo View Post
    Alright good to know, looks like Archon it is.

    What changed to make Thannies so shitty from what I understood was a "decent at lots of things but not great" role that it used to occupy?
    The general EVE populous realized how good the Archon was. It used to be that a triage Thanny was alright, because not everyone had Archons. Besides, it's not like anyone knew what to do about a triage carrier anyway. Especially for small gang, dropping triage usually meant they either tried shooting everything or the triage to no avail then bailing, or just bailing. No one knew how to counter a triage carrier, or if they did, they didn't have the assets and they didn't want to escalate with dreads.

    In today's EVE, everyone knows how to counter triage, and in any random gang of 10, at least one person will have a Bhaal for just such an occasion. Worse yet, combat carriers no longer care about fighters, very rarely do people even launch fighters anymore, it's all about the sentry drones.

    The Thanny still does everything with mediocrity, but especially when giving a choice, why would you pick the worst? Most organized groups these days are trading Thannies for Archons on a program. Trade in your Not-An-Archon carrier and get an Archon and the skillbook required to fly it in return. The carrier discrepancy is that bad.
    This. Chimera is the shield archon, and not all that terrible anymore.

    Chimera's are pretty solid as shield triage for shield gangs, and are actually a superior turd carrier to the Archon(along with shield supers being superior - all titans are shit, Im referring to supercarriers), only reason they aren't more common is that more people are trained for Chimeras, and there are far more armor supers/armor caps.

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