hate these ads?, log in or register to hide them
Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 2345678 LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 148

Thread: Jump Fatigue Round Table with CCP Larrikin

  1. #81
    Batolemaeus's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 12, 2011
    Posts
    841
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Batolemaeus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Batolemaeus View Post
    Most people who do serious logistics work do more than one trip, reuse cynos, and relog their cynoalts because each account has three of them. Fix nullsec industry before fucking over even more people and making even more space even more useless.
    Uh, nullsec industry got a gigantic fix last year. What fix do you think it still needs?
    Raw resources to build more than a t1 fit rifter from parts not sourced from jita. And tools for line members to do this without going via POS and corp roles and all the stuff that entails.
    OK so actual minerals aren't an issue, I know that from my personal experience.

    Nor are PI materials

    Realistically, the T2 bottleneck is the number of different moon and associated reaction farms required to have a worthwhile local t2 production setup, have I got hat right?
    Everything but plain T1 is impossible to source in relevant quantities in 0.0 without relying fully or partially on imports. And as you may be aware, nobody flies plain T1 in nullsec if they want to win a fight. This has not changed even slightly. In fact, it was made worse thanks to CCP releasing ever more effective modules and ships that are anything but T1. You need ammo (from empire because you want T2 and faction), you need modules (faction or T2, again empire), ships (T3 or T2, chances are you lack several moon minerals on the critical path even if you own two regions, and let me remind you: aegis...), rigs (most of them can't be built with local rig parts). If you plan on using capitals, have fun importing 3/4 of all isotopes. If you want to do invention (why would you?), you'll also need to import invention resources because you won't have most of them locally.

    And that's just raw resources. The next challenge is that you can't hope to compete with empire because anything but plain T1 is a complicated chain of dependencies that only becomes effective as you scale up, but you don't even have the market even if you have blued several regions and producing multiple unrelated products (about 200+ for the necessities of a small hub) is out of scope for most people. So you'd need to engage almost everyone in production in some form, which just won't happen.

    Local production in 0.0 is such a hilarious pipe dream it's mindboggling how anyone can even suggest doing it now. It's done purely in the chain of logistics to keep volume down where possible. To change it and cut the empire umbilical cord requires a major restructuring of how industry works, how materials are acquired, and how they are processed.

    Perhaps it's also time to move resources around so people can source raw materials within a 1 region radius of where they are, instead of having to import from literally the other side of the map. You can't try to force Aegis style sov mechanics while discouraging imports with ever more tedious JF and w-space routes if you don't also rebalance how wares are produced.

  2. #82
    Fara's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    1,735
    IDK why local production is so important in the first place, other than it would be nice extra feature for paperpushers to play with. It'll just make attacking more tedious and defending more comfortable in a serious conflict and Im not sure in a environment where everybody lacks motivation to attack we need this.

    Tho maybe im wrong?

  3. #83
    Bocephus's Avatar
    Join Date
    September 26, 2013
    Location
    [T-S-K]<TISHU>
    Posts
    341
    After listening to the round table I do kinda agree in that I don't get the push for localized industry in nullsec. EVE needs more spaceships blowing up more than it needs those spaceships coming locally. If that other side of that means everybody sourcing from Jita then so be it.

    At one point Fozzie says they want localized industry because they want disrupting it to be a legitimate way to wage war. That's a great idea in the real world, but in a video game about blowing shit up that would just end wars faster with less shit blowing up.

    edit: I'm not saying they should undo the nullsec industry changes, I'm just saying they shouldn't put any more effort into developing it or nerfing logistics from Jita.
    Last edited by Bocephus; August 13 2015 at 01:03:15 PM.

  4. #84
    Cosmin's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 14, 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,734
    Quote Originally Posted by Bouh View Post
    It's a video game. There always will be rules. With no rules, you have no materials to play with. There are rules that allow you to do things, and rules that prevent you from doing things. A sandbox should indeed focus on the firsts, but that doesn't mean you should be able to do anything. Actualy, in video games, players will always ask to be able to do more things more easily, but in truth a video game is always more interesting when players have difficulties to overcome. Because that's the whole point of a video game : overcoming the difficulties. That's a bit meta, but no more irrelevant than your frenzy about hull bonuses.
    You seem to acknowledge it's a video game but you would like for it to have a bit more rules.

    The point of a video game is to have fun. Period. Overcoming difficulties is to be found in all MMOs, be it World of Warcraft, Guild Wars or Solitaire Online. EvE is unique because of its sandbox nature. Taking that away would just mean to turn it into another "normal" MMO and that isn't desirable for a lot of reasons that are too many to just list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bouh View Post
    And what would be best : pissing people to fix mistake and take the game in the right direction or leave the game dying because the people that are already there but slowly leaving the game don't want it to be fixed ? CCP made mistakes and it'll probably take sacrifices to fix them. Besides, with each big changes people always threaten to leave the game and that the change will destroy it anyway.
    You continue to ignore my arguments and having a go with a monologue. Let's work the case of the Phoebe jump changes - it pissed people off, but it also improved the game. It pissed off a rather large amount of people who said fuck dis shit and simply unsubbed or stopped logging in, hence the drop in PCU since Phoebe which can't be ignored anymore. It is also the reason of this round table, because it is quite clear CCP is becoming desperate at this point - hisec players are quitting in droves, nullsec players who actually hold space are antagonised by the FozzieSov changes and are saying "fuck dis shit" after evacuating and what not.

    Making another change now or backpedalling too agressively on jump changes will simply fuck up the game even more (I'm this blunt because you seem to continue to ignore my line metaphor) and will simply kill the game even faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bouh View Post
    Isolated facts... Teleportation and logistic were so absurd before jump fatigue that some people in null didn't even took gates anymore. It reduces interactions. Hence it was *very* bad for the game.
    What is absurd in creating a wormhole in a virtual universe in a video game where mankind achieved FTL travel and communications that are so ubiquitous that they're not even a special something anymore?

    Ah, you love to take gates? You loved to camp pipes and now you have too little interaction save the disoriented carebear who jumped the wrong gate? You can't afford suitcase carriers? You love to roam? That's perfectly fine, but try to not shit on other people's way of playing the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bouh View Post
    A big problem is that nullsec has been accustomed to a very high level of comfort and safety, and a lot of this comfort and safety is bad for the game, so need to be removed. And of course people don't like when you make them less comfortable and less safe.
    It has always been that way. Locals in nullsec always had the advantage of instant intel channels, local channel intel and the examples can continue ad-nauseam. But nope, in 2015 EvE's most horrible problem is safety and comfort in nullsec. The thing is FozzieSov, if anything, made it less safe and comfortable in nullsec. Let that sink in a bit. Then think about the fact that if you plunge a dagger to somebody's heart, they'll die. If you make a cut in a non-critical place and give it time, they will heal. This is what CCP is trying to do, do surgery on the game without killing it. And the problem is there's no anaesthetic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bouh View Post
    If the market is globalized, one person will produce the best 5MN MWD in the galaxy, and no one will be able to do better. In a localized market, if the local trader is selling stuff for a stupid price, another one can come and make a better deal. Suddenly 2 people instead of 1 are playing the same game. Or The customers will go buy their MWD somewhere else, and that will make people and goods moving in space. The point of having localized things and geography that matter is that you then have many worlds within the whole world that live their own lives and interacts instead of one unified world.

    More practicaly, how do you make nullsec industry useful when it's cheaper to move stuff from jita than producing it localy ? And if nullsec industry is irrelevant, how do you make nullsec space worth it ? And if nullsec is all equaly worthless, why would you hold sovs ?
    1. nullsec industry is already more profitable to do than anywhere else, ranging from T1 ammo to capital ships.
    2. In a localised market, another trader can't come and offer a better deal because you fucked up logistics, which is so horrible to do now that only few people do it => monopoly -> absurd prices.
    3. customers can go fuck themselves after 2, because fun is in the gutter and "fuck dis shit";
    4. you can't put borders in space. Get over it. FozzieSov is trying to do it, but you still have standings, alliances and these aren't going anywhere. Goons will surround themselves with cannon fodder and to take them on you'll need literally to grind everyfuckingbody around them. And this is just one example.
    5. again we're back to the equilibrium state of the sandbox, which tends to be the most comfortable setting for the majority of people (at least those with the big guns when considering nullsec). Again, CCP has been trying for years to make people fight their neighbours. They failed. Know why? Because it doesn't make sense to fight your neighbours, in any universe, be it the real one, New Eden or the gdamn Matrix
    Guns make the news, science doesn't.

  5. #85
    Cosmin's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 14, 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,734
    Quote Originally Posted by Bocephus View Post
    After listening to the round table I do kinda agree in that I don't get the push for localized industry in nullsec. EVE needs more spaceships blowing up more than it needs those spaceships coming locally. If that other side of that means everybody sourcing from Jita then so be it.

    At one point Fozzie says they want localized industry because they want disrupting it to be a legitimate way to wage war. That's a great idea in the real world, but in a video game about blowing shit up that would just end wars faster with less shit blowing up.
    P. much spot on.
    Guns make the news, science doesn't.

  6. #86
    Keckers's Avatar
    Join Date
    July 31, 2012
    Posts
    19,647
    People want to see pvpers living in nullsec. But why on earth would pvpers want to live in nullsec? What exists for them there they can't get in wormholes or lowsec?
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  7. #87
    Batolemaeus's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 12, 2011
    Posts
    841
    Quote Originally Posted by Fara View Post
    IDK why local production is so important in the first place, other than it would be nice extra feature for paperpushers to play with. It'll just make attacking more tedious and defending more comfortable in a serious conflict and Im not sure in a environment where everybody lacks motivation to attack we need this.

    Tho maybe im wrong?

    It's important if you want to gut importing, which is what every JF nerf amounts to. You can't punish logistics without offering an alternative. Because if you do, you devalue even more of nullsec by making it such a tedious mess to move shit there that the only things in that space are bots and farmers. See drone regions, far south and east of the map.

  8. #88

    Join Date
    August 22, 2014
    Posts
    153
    It has always been that way. Locals in nullsec always had the advantage of instant intel channels, local channel intel and the examples can continue ad-nauseam. But nope, in 2015 EvE's most horrible problem is safety and comfort in nullsec. The thing is FozzieSov, if anything, made it less safe and comfortable in nullsec. Let that sink in a bit. Then think about the fact that if you plunge a dagger to somebody's heart, they'll die. If you make a cut in a non-critical place and give it time, they will heal. This is what CCP is trying to do, do surgery on the game without killing it. And the problem is there's no anaesthetic.
    So you mean that we actualy agree but you think CCP should wait before applying more fixes ?

    After listening to the round table I do kinda agree in that I don't get the push for localized industry in nullsec. EVE needs more spaceships blowing up more than it needs those spaceships coming locally. If that other side of that means everybody sourcing from Jita then so be it.

    At one point Fozzie says they want localized industry because they want disrupting it to be a legitimate way to wage war. That's a great idea in the real world, but in a video game about blowing shit up that would just end wars faster with less shit blowing up.

    edit: I'm not saying they should undo the nullsec industry changes, I'm just saying they shouldn't put any more effort into developing it or nerfing logistics from Jita.
    You don't encourage wars by allowing people to fight more easily. That was the state of two years ago : people could jump anywhere in the galaxy in a handful of minutes and fight each other, and the biggest coalitions had enough money for their ship to be virtualy unlimited. And yet they didn't fought.

    Instant travel and cheap ships do not lead to more wars and fights. We experienced it already.

  9. #89
    Bocephus's Avatar
    Join Date
    September 26, 2013
    Location
    [T-S-K]<TISHU>
    Posts
    341
    Quote Originally Posted by Bouh View Post
    You don't encourage wars by allowing people to fight more easily. That was the state of two years ago : people could jump anywhere in the galaxy in a handful of minutes and fight each other, and the biggest coalitions had enough money for their ship to be virtualy unlimited. And yet they didn't fought.

    Instant travel and cheap ships do not lead to more wars and fights. We experienced it already.

    You are not wrong that coalitions were unwilling to spend their virtually unlimited money, but saying cheap ships does not lead to more fights is not a logical conclusion to draw. Risk aversion is one of the biggest reasons fights don't happen, making ships more valuable by cutting off Jita will not help create content.

    And yes, instant travel did stifle fights, but this extremely laborious travel arguably stifled them harder. Deployment was one of the single best ways to instigate fights/content. Under the current jump changes that is near impossible to do on a larger scale. With some iteration to fatigue or perhaps a travel mode for capitals, it could become much more viable. Combine that with the new sov changes (with some tweaks) and you should have a system that allows nomadic alliances to move around properly while not letting sov holding alliances do so (unless they want to lose their space).

  10. #90
    Cosmin's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 14, 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,734
    Quote Originally Posted by Bocephus View Post
    travel mode for capitals
    Make it so.
    Guns make the news, science doesn't.

  11. #91
    Cosmin's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 14, 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,734
    Quote Originally Posted by Bocephus View Post
    travel mode for capitals
    Make it so.
    Guns make the news, science doesn't.

  12. #92
    Bocephus's Avatar
    Join Date
    September 26, 2013
    Location
    [T-S-K]<TISHU>
    Posts
    341
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bocephus View Post
    travel mode for capitals
    Make it so.
    Unfortunately, Fozzie seemed opposed to the idea in the round table. CCP seems to view moving and power projection as one in the same. While obviously they are related, they really aren't. It's one thing to get hotdropped from across the galaxy. It's another to make moving so painfully that people would rather not login. I think with some changes to mechanics you could work out a system that allows nomadic alliances to move around in a relatively painless manner without letting the sov holding blocs abuse it (namely losing their sov quickly).

  13. #93
    Marlona Sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    7,412
    Quote Originally Posted by Bocephus View Post
    CCP seems to view moving and power projection as one in the same.
    Because it is.

  14. #94
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    T L A
    Posts
    12,620
    Mimic trying to explain the problems of the roundtable. https://forums.eveonline.com/default...45#post5964445

    Skimming the whole thing, they seem to be claiming :NDA: but that begs the question why's so much general change discussion swallowed up by NDA? It's obvious what's an option for changes to capitals, structures, sov, etc. So I don't get why they can't at least confirm particular things as having been considered, and then go into the hypotheticals of if they were strongly considering them still, what they'd currently be thinking are the pros and cons to them as devs and to the players.

    :NDA: seems a cop out.

    Due to the fact we can't talk publicly about the capital changes we're looking into at this stage
    Only because you've decided to claim you can't talk publically. That shit's on you, CCP. Players didn't do that, lawyers didn't either, it's your discussion to open or close as you decide.
    Last edited by Daneel Trevize; August 13 2015 at 05:54:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

  15. #95

    Join Date
    June 7, 2011
    Posts
    83
    Quote Originally Posted by Batolemaeus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fara View Post
    IDK why local production is so important in the first place, other than it would be nice extra feature for paperpushers to play with. It'll just make attacking more tedious and defending more comfortable in a serious conflict and Im not sure in a environment where everybody lacks motivation to attack we need this.

    Tho maybe im wrong?

    It's important if you want to gut importing, which is what every JF nerf amounts to. You can't punish logistics without offering an alternative. Because if you do, you devalue even more of nullsec by making it such a tedious mess to move shit there that the only things in that space are bots and farmers. See drone regions, far south and east of the map.
    To expand upon this; currently in order to live in NullSec you need to have a few highly dedicated and motivated people who do nothing but play space trucker. If those players burn out, or you don't treat them well enough, you're fucked. Any m3 you can source locally reduces the pressure on the logistical pipeline, and thus reduces the necessity for hardcore space truckers. Local production is a way of spreading out the workload without additional JF's and cyno alts.

  16. #96
    spitroast's Avatar
    Join Date
    June 8, 2015
    Location
    Angry Northern Bastard, UK
    Posts
    2,560
    The bigger your alliance the less jump range your capitals have..... more members shave more percentages off of jump range. Just a thought....

  17. #97

    Join Date
    May 10, 2011
    Location
    Unsubbed
    Posts
    2,612
    Quote Originally Posted by spitroast View Post
    The bigger your alliance the less jump range your capitals have..... more members shave more percentages off of jump range. Just a thought....
    LOL. This is the type of shit CCP had to deal with during the round table. LOL.

  18. #98
    spitroast's Avatar
    Join Date
    June 8, 2015
    Location
    Angry Northern Bastard, UK
    Posts
    2,560
    Quote Originally Posted by jonesbones View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by spitroast View Post
    The bigger your alliance the less jump range your capitals have..... more members shave more percentages off of jump range. Just a thought....
    LOL. This is the type of shit CCP had to deal with during the round table. LOL.
    I'm in my own shitty corp so it's all about meeeeeeeee

  19. #99
    Malcanis's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 12, 2011
    Posts
    16,530
    Quote Originally Posted by Bocephus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bocephus View Post
    travel mode for capitals
    Make it so.
    Unfortunately, Fozzie seemed opposed to the idea in the round table. CCP seems to view moving and power projection as one in the same. While obviously they are related, they really aren't. It's one thing to get hotdropped from across the galaxy. It's another to make moving so painfully that people would rather not login. I think with some changes to mechanics you could work out a system that allows nomadic alliances to move around in a relatively painless manner without letting the sov holding blocs abuse it (namely losing their sov quickly).
    What the fuck are you even talking about? What is your conception of "power projection" other than moving ships? Sending rude eve-mails?

  20. #100
    Cosmin's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 14, 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,734

    Jump Fatigue Round Table with CCP Larrikin

    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    What the fuck are you even talking about? What is your conception of "power projection" other than moving ships? Sending rude eve-mails?
    JF and suitcase carrier powa is over 9000!11

    Sigh.


    iDerp
    Guns make the news, science doesn't.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •