hate these ads?, log in or register to hide them
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 77

Thread: Holistic healing

  1. #21
    Pegging Specialist Donor indi's Avatar
    Join Date
    November 9, 2011
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    3,773
    Quote Originally Posted by FatFreddy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by indi View Post
    I think the holistic approach makes sense. Before you shoot me, let me explain. Treating one or two processes in the body (or functions, or whatever) certainly has effects elsewhere too. It's better to look at the whole. Bit like a healthy lifestyle: it's not just eating well, it's also exercising and making sure you get enough sleep.

    There are plenty of therapies that used to be considered "alternative" and are now more mainstream. Having said that, there's also a lot of shall we say, exploitation of desperation. That type seems to thrive on charging exorbitant fees; maybe their victims' belief hinges on the amount of extortion ("if it's this expensive and people pay that, it MUST work")

    Perhaps your friend would be better served with undertaking some action him/herself. Changing your diet has beneficial effects for most people. By that I don't mean to just cut out gluten and munch chia seeds or whatever the latest craze is. I mean: making sure you ingest more vegetables and fruit than you used to, reducing sugar, limiting the amount of fats consumed to a reasonable amount, not drinking 15 cups of coffee a day, etc. It is no longer speculation that certain food patterns encourage inflammation and others reduce it. It's not a miracle cure by any means, but it could help. Similarly with regards to - however difficult - exercise. Maybe swimming is an option? Then there's things like regular meditation, making sure you get enough sleep, etc. That is the kind of approach that I do believe in (and that's not expensive apart from the food - fresh produce is always more expensive than shitty food). Common sense and personal experience.
    Except you and we all have no idea what "holistic treatment" the person in the OP is actually undergoing.

    A holistic treatment in actual medicine would be bringing different doctors from different fields together.

    You're simply giving dietary advice..which is cool, but not really relevant :f
    That's not what I did. I said to take into account a more "whole" approach, *a bit like* a healthy lifestyle that comprises (changes in) food, exercise and sleep. This as an alternative to "alternative holistic therapies" of the extortionate non-working kind. Not as any type of therapy, just as something the patient could try him/herself.

    I do agree that your description is what a holistic approach in terms of "traditional" medicine would amount to, unless you are lucky enough to find the type of highly learned doctor who doesn't believe in overspecialization. And in that, like I said, I believe.


    There are plenty of therapies that used to be considered "alternative" and are now more mainstream
    Strong nope. If it is actual, science-based medicine, the term for new treatments is "experimental".
    This may be a language/culture thingie. There are therapies here that are actually called alternative therapies, but that are compensated by insurance companies and actually proven to work. I'm not talking about herbs picked by midnight on the kalends of January in the year of the goat. Experimental therapy here is the kind that is not approved for use on humans outside of trials.

    And no, I have no idea what holistic therapies the person in question is undergoing. I just have some idea of the desperation you can feel and the lengths you might go to. I also happen to be incredibly sceptical, inclined to follow the money trail and personally unlikely to do that. Not everyone I know feels that way, so every once in a while I have to slap away people who seriously want me to consider undergoing a raindance treatment for big moolah.

    It might be me, I'm incredibly tired, but you seem kind of antagonistic. Which is odd, as I get the feeling we're 75% on the same page here. vOv

  2. #22
    FatFreddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    14,181
    Quote Originally Posted by indi View Post

    Strong nope. If it is actual, science-based medicine, the term for new treatments is "experimental".
    This may be a language/culture thingie. There are therapies here that are actually called alternative therapies, but that are compensated by insurance companies and actually proven to work. I'm not talking about herbs picked by midnight on the kalends of January in the year of the goat. Experimental therapy here is the kind that is not approved for use on humans outside of trials.
    You're completely correct, and I was very wrong - I looked up the definitions and chiropratcy etc. all fall under "alternative" as 'alternative' is defined as "not included in standard health care as provided by doctors and nurses"; I assumed something different. Welp ^^

    edit: Also, no antagonism intended :>
    Last edited by FatFreddy; March 13 2015 at 08:28:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot
    Pastry.. That the best you can do?
    Quote Originally Posted by NotXenosis View Post

    M8, i have discussions that spam multiple accounts, you aren't even on my level

  3. #23
    Pegging Specialist Donor indi's Avatar
    Join Date
    November 9, 2011
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    3,773
    Quote Originally Posted by FatFreddy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by indi View Post

    Strong nope. If it is actual, science-based medicine, the term for new treatments is "experimental".
    This may be a language/culture thingie. There are therapies here that are actually called alternative therapies, but that are compensated by insurance companies and actually proven to work. I'm not talking about herbs picked by midnight on the kalends of January in the year of the goat. Experimental therapy here is the kind that is not approved for use on humans outside of trials.
    You're completely correct, and I was very wrong - I looked up the definitions and chiropratcy etc. all fall under "alternative" as 'alternative' is defined as "not included in standard health care as provided by doctors and nurses"; I assumed something different. Welp ^^

    edit: Also, no antagonism intended :>
    Righto. It's a difficult subject, there are many people quite desperate to feel/get better and a lot of unknowns and charlatans. So naturally, we all feel very strongly about it

  4. #24
    Donor Mike deVoid's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    Nottingham, UK
    Posts
    6,900
    Quote Originally Posted by SteeleResolve View Post
    Someone very close to me has a longstanding physical condition. Fibromyalgia and ME

    As such, they have started to do some more holistic type therapies that aren't cheap. The type that are holistic, as per the thread title, and I would be interested in your input on such techniques.

    I'm quite cynical of such means.

    Discuss
    My wife has fibro, with a touch of chronic fatigue. It's a massive struggle for her, she takes probably 2-6x codeine pills each day to help manage the pain. The medical interventions (other pills and physio) and behavioural changes (avoid activities that require high or sustained spoon usage) that can be taken are not always sufficient. It's pretty heartbreaking to see the affect it has on her, so I feel for your friend.

    It's not easy to accept that modern medicine cannot resolve the problems. I can see why other options become appealing when they appear to be the only ones offering hope, no matter how slim. It's hard to accept that your lot is your lot.

  5. #25

    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    345
    Quote Originally Posted by FatFreddy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by indi View Post

    Strong nope. If it is actual, science-based medicine, the term for new treatments is "experimental".
    This may be a language/culture thingie. There are therapies here that are actually called alternative therapies, but that are compensated by insurance companies and actually proven to work. I'm not talking about herbs picked by midnight on the kalends of January in the year of the goat. Experimental therapy here is the kind that is not approved for use on humans outside of trials.
    You're completely correct, and I was very wrong - I looked up the definitions and chiropratcy etc. all fall under "alternative" as 'alternative' is defined as "not included in standard health care as provided by doctors and nurses"; I assumed something different. Welp ^^

    edit: Also, no antagonism intended :>
    Chiropractic has no proven effect.

    Anyway, you can split hairs, but the most useful definition of alternative medicine is: 'has no proven effect'. If it would have, it would be mainstream medicine. There is this common misconception that 'regular' medicine rejects 'alternative' therapies because they don't understand how it works. That is completely false, in fact most therapies and medicines used in mainstream medicine aren't fully understood. Mainstream medicine doesn't care about that, it cares about results. There are millions spend everyday to find anything that has any kind of effect on any kind of illness, do you really think they ignore all these openly available 'alternative' therapies out of principal?

    Edit:
    My uncle is a 'holistic healer' he is a big believer in that shit and has been sprouting that non-sense for years. Giving al kinds of advice and suggesting these therapies to family members whenever they have something. He actually ran a practice and took peoples money for it. When he found out he had cancer that very quickly all went out the door and he placed his completely faith in 'regular' medicine. Its all fun and games until your own life is on the line...
    Last edited by MortyM; March 14 2015 at 07:04:35 AM.

  6. #26
    Pegging Specialist Donor indi's Avatar
    Join Date
    November 9, 2011
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    3,773
    Quote Originally Posted by MortyM View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FatFreddy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by indi View Post

    Strong nope. If it is actual, science-based medicine, the term for new treatments is "experimental".
    This may be a language/culture thingie. There are therapies here that are actually called alternative therapies, but that are compensated by insurance companies and actually proven to work. I'm not talking about herbs picked by midnight on the kalends of January in the year of the goat. Experimental therapy here is the kind that is not approved for use on humans outside of trials.
    You're completely correct, and I was very wrong - I looked up the definitions and chiropratcy etc. all fall under "alternative" as 'alternative' is defined as "not included in standard health care as provided by doctors and nurses"; I assumed something different. Welp ^^

    edit: Also, no antagonism intended :>
    Chiropractic has no proven effect.

    Anyway, you can split hairs, but the most useful definition of alternative medicine is: 'has no proven effect'. If it would have, it would be mainstream medicine. There is this common misconception that 'regular' medicine rejects 'alternative' therapies because they don't understand how it works. That is completely false, in fact most therapies and medicines used in mainstream medicine aren't fully understood. Mainstream medicine doesn't care about that, it cares about results. There are millions spend everyday to find anything that has any kind of effect on any kind of illness, do you really think they ignore all these openly available 'alternative' therapies out of principal?

    Edit:
    My uncle is a 'holistic healer' he is a big believer in that shit and has been sprouting that non-sense for years. Giving al kinds of advice and suggesting these therapies to family members whenever they have something. He actually ran a practice and took peoples money for it. When he found out he had cancer that very quickly all went out the door and he placed his completely faith in 'regular' medicine. Its all fun and games until your own life is on the line...

    Not entirely true, afaik there's enough evidence to support that manipulation is helpful for lower back pain, for instance. I view chiropractic as part of the category (ortho)manual therapy, which is p. much mainstream here. It helps that I had a truly awful nerve pain behind my ear that was p. much 65% fixed after the first manipulation by the chiropractor last year . Manual therapist fixed my neck quite quickly (different thing) a few years back. I'll totally grant you that the basic premises of chiropractic are unproven and will pretty much remain so.

    What you say about your uncle really does confirm what I secretly think about a lot of people. Not many have the stubbornness or (sort of...) courage Steve Jobs did.

    Problems arise when you have something and the doctor's can't fix it, like Mike's wife. You get pretty desperate to have some quality of life and are likely to try a lot of things. By the time they figured out Overspark had cancer and operated on him, I was getting desperate myself. It wouldn't have been much longer before I would have considered resorting to the herbs picked in the year of the goat just to see if it would at least alleviate some of the pain and discomfort.

  7. #27
    Super Moderator Global Moderator QuackBot's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 7, 2012
    Posts
    21,132
    Quote Originally Posted by FatFreddy View Post

    You're completely correct, and I was very wrong - I looked up the definitions and chiropratcy etc. all fall under "alternative" as 'alternative' is defined as "not included in standard health care as provided by doctors and nurses"; I assumed something different. Welp ^^

    edit: Also, no antagonism intended :>
    Something is wrong.

  8. #28
    FatFreddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    14,181
    Quote Originally Posted by MortyM View Post

    Chiropractic has no proven effect.

    Anyway, you can split hairs, but the most useful definition of alternative medicine is: 'has no proven effect'. If it would have, it would be mainstream medicine. There is this common misconception that 'regular' medicine rejects 'alternative' therapies because they don't understand how it works. That is completely false, in fact most therapies and medicines used in mainstream medicine aren't fully understood. Mainstream medicine doesn't care about that, it cares about results. There are millions spend everyday to find anything that has any kind of effect on any kind of illness, do you really think they ignore all these openly available 'alternative' therapies out of principal?
    hm

    I am flip-flopping on the official definiton now after more googling...googled some more after your post and it seems I'd have to flip back.


    quotespam:
      Spoiler:

    WHO:

    Traditional medicine

    Traditional medicine is the sum total of the knowledge, skills, and practices based on the theories, beliefs, and experiences indigenous to different cultures, whether explicable or not, used in the maintenance of health as well as in the prevention, diagnosis, improvement or treatment of physical and mental illness.
    Complementary/alternative medicine (CAM)

    The terms "complementary medicine" or "alternative medicine" are used inter-changeably with traditional medicine in some countries. They refer to a broad set of health care practices that are not part of that country's own tradition and are not integrated into the dominant health care system.
    http://www.who.int/medicines/areas/t...efinitions/en/

    NIH:

    “Complementary” generally refers to using a non-mainstream approach together with conventional medicine.
    “Alternative” refers to using a non-mainstream approach in place of conventional medicine.
    https://nccih.nih.gov/health/whatiscam

    cambridge dictionary:
    a range of treatments for medical conditions that people use instead of or with western medicine: Alternative medicine includes treatments such as acupuncture, homeopathy, and hypnotherapy.
    Complementary and alternative medicines (CAMs) are treatments that fall outside of mainstream healthcare.

    These medicines and treatments range from acupuncture and homeopathy to aromatherapy, meditation and colonic irrigation.

    There is no universally agreed definition of CAMs.

    The information that tells whether a healthcare treatment is safe and effective is called evidence. You can use evidence to help you decide whether you want to use a CAM. Detailed information on many complementary and alternative treatments can be found listed alphabetically in the Health A-Z index.

    Some complementary and alternative medicines or treatments are based on principles and an evidence base that are not recognised by the majority of independent scientists.

    The availability of complementary and alternative treatments on the NHS is limited. Some, such as acupuncture, may be offered by the NHS in some circumstances
    http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/complemen...medicines.aspx

    university of hamburg: "not based on scientific methods": http://www.sign-lang.uni-hamburg.de/...epte/l7376.htm


    Sorry, Indi. I'll have to take this

    Quote Originally Posted by indi View Post

    Strong nope. If it is actual, science-based medicine, the term for new treatments is "experimental".
    This may be a language/culture thingie. There are therapies here that are actually called alternative therapies, but that are compensated by insurance companies and actually proven to work. I'm not talking about herbs picked by midnight on the kalends of January in the year of the goat. Experimental therapy here is the kind that is not approved for use on humans outside of trials.
    You're completely correct, and I was very wrong - I looked up the definitions and chiropratcy etc. all fall under "alternative" as 'alternative' is defined as "not included in standard health care as provided by doctors and nurses"; I assumed something different. Welp ^^
    back in its definiteveness
    Last edited by FatFreddy; March 14 2015 at 01:19:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot
    Pastry.. That the best you can do?
    Quote Originally Posted by NotXenosis View Post

    M8, i have discussions that spam multiple accounts, you aren't even on my level

  9. #29
    FatFreddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    14,181
    Quote Originally Posted by indi View Post

    What you say about your uncle really does confirm what I secretly think about a lot of people. Not many have the stubbornness or (sort of...) courage Steve Jobs did.
    Steve Jobs was a desperate esoteric who literally tried _anything_ and bought his way on top of the donors list in an impressive amount of US states...Indi, plz

    Quote Originally Posted by indi View Post

    Problems arise when you have something and the doctor's can't fix it, like Mike's wife. You get pretty desperate to have some quality of life and are likely to try a lot of things. By the time they figured out Overspark had cancer and operated on him, I was getting desperate myself. It wouldn't have been much longer before I would have considered resorting to the herbs picked in the year of the goat just to see if it would at least alleviate some of the pain and discomfort.
    Um...why not THC, which is actually proven to be an effective pain remedy in some cases, cultured and used by several national health care agencies around the world and, afaik, most prevalently used for cancer/chronic patients?
    Last edited by FatFreddy; March 14 2015 at 01:23:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot
    Pastry.. That the best you can do?
    Quote Originally Posted by NotXenosis View Post

    M8, i have discussions that spam multiple accounts, you aren't even on my level

  10. #30
    Cosmin's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 14, 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    5,957
    Quote Originally Posted by indi View Post
    I think the holistic approach makes sense. Before you shoot me, let me explain. Treating one or two processes in the body (or functions, or whatever) certainly has effects elsewhere too. It's better to look at the whole. Bit like a healthy lifestyle: it's not just eating well, it's also exercising and making sure you get enough sleep.
    Yes, but you see, good doctors do this too. They just don't use pompous words to express common sense. Let's say somebody is being treated for cancer with a mix of chemo and radiotherapy. Obviously if they eat like shit, they'll be a lot worse than others who manage a healthy diet. Chemo is extremely toxic on your body and the combination is guaranteed to cut your appetite and what not, but it depends a lot on the people surrounding the patient. If there is good support, the patient will manage to cram inside them some healthy food and will feel better when the regime ends and their recovery will be enhanced. But here we're actually hitting another wall, on how retarded the patient's family/friends are, etc.

    But when "holistic" is pronounced, alarm bells should ring, because that's another pompous word for homeopathy, which is literally the cancer killing humanity. It erodes trust in medicine, which by all intents and purposes is there to make people better whilst turning a profit, but their products are trialled and tested not just by the FDA or similar bodies, but also by independent studies conducted in a lot of hospitals. If something doesn't work, it sticks out like a stripper in a monastery and it's quickly blasted with all cannons.

    Homeopathy has been proved to be ineffective in treating diseases. It is, however, extremely effective in proving Darwin right and it also helps with over population.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pacefalm View Post
    This is a fundamental misunderstanding about the placebo effect. The placebo effect is often regarded as "if you believe in it, it works a little bit". But this is not true. It is purely a psychological effect that makes patients REPORT they feel better, but there is zero evidence that their condition actually improves. In other words, a group of people that is given nothing and a group of people that is given placebo's will both recover equally as fast. There is no real "effect" there, just a bias that has to be taken into account when depending on self-reported wellbeing for the purpose of medicine efficacy tests.
    You're onto something here, but it isn't entirely true. Double blind studies have a placebo group and those people don't report they're feeling better at all. Apart from objective measurements of the efficiency of a drug (and inefficiency of placebo), you do have in those report forms things like "quality of life" and such.

    Let me give you an example. If you give a heroin or morphine addict placebo instead of the detox treatment, they will most certainly not report they're feeling better. Of course, it depends on what you're treating, that is why hypertension (which doesn't hurt or anything) can be "treated" with placebo and homeopathy and then bloke has a stroke or an acute coronary syndrome and everybody points at the stroke or ACS as the cause of death/impairment, not the underlying cause. As another example, it is quite difficult to assess cause of death in some studies simply because some morons decide to put there "cardiorespiratory failure". Well, duh, that is how everybody dies, no matter if you've been poisoned to death or burned to a crisp, you still die through cardiorespiratory failure. And here we dwell into how some pathologists are morons and legal medicine should sometimes have the upper hand on retarded doctors in documenting cause of death. We'd have much more accurate depictions of what actually kills us in the end - besides cardiorespiratory failure, that is.


    Overall, I'd say some weird treatments are effective, but for different reasons that one might think. No, acupuncture doesn't heal your chakras (or maybe it does, have to ask my imaginary friend for confirmation, though), what it does is it triggers a huge discharge of endorphins in your body - even if you don't feel it if it's done skillfully, your body notices it's being stung by 5000 needles and it reacts - which in turn numbs basically any pain you might be feeling - boom, you're healed, no pain, see?

    You need to see past these things and into what really matters. Medicine has gone on for thousands of years and the new discoveries are amazing. Eventually we'll get prolonged life, healthy life, new engineered organs and what not. If those were possible with grass juice, it'd have been achieved ages ago.
    Guns make the news, science doesn't.

  11. #31
    Cosmin's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 14, 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    5,957
    Quote Originally Posted by indi View Post
    Problems arise when you have something and the doctor's can't fix it, like Mike's wife. You get pretty desperate to have some quality of life and are likely to try a lot of things. By the time they figured out Overspark had cancer and operated on him, I was getting desperate myself. It wouldn't have been much longer before I would have considered resorting to the herbs picked in the year of the goat just to see if it would at least alleviate some of the pain and discomfort.
    Mate, I know where you're coming from, but let us be honest - there are things nobody can fix (yet). I am sincerely sorry, but this is how things work. Not so long ago, people were dying from cholera and the black plague and we eradicated those today. I (still) haven't lost a patient in almost 9 years of practice, but I am at peace that when it is inevitable, I will be able to comfort them and their family. It does break my heart as well, we're not insensitive pricks (well, some of us aren't). The thing is we should help the relatives and people closest to them be at peace as well and see it more as a relief after a long suffering rather than something that should be avoided at all costs. We all die, eventually.

    I am also extremely pissed off at the governments for making certain things illegal - like weed and stuffs like that - those were proven they're not harmful, allow some people to use them to make their passing comfortable at least. It is in my opinion one of the most cruel things people are doing to people nowadays.
    Guns make the news, science doesn't.

  12. #32
    FatFreddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    14,181
    Can't rep back right now, so, Indi: People who claim Steve Jobs refused a transplant from one of his closest friends: 1, the close friend, in a mourning biography years after his death
    Steve Jobs manipulating donor lists with millions of dollars: Proven fact

    Just with medicine, I'll stick with the facts..

    Also, I'd say it is completely irrelevant to the actual points discussed and you chose to bring him up first as example :\
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot
    Pastry.. That the best you can do?
    Quote Originally Posted by NotXenosis View Post

    M8, i have discussions that spam multiple accounts, you aren't even on my level

  13. #33
    Pegging Specialist Donor indi's Avatar
    Join Date
    November 9, 2011
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    3,773
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by indi View Post
    Problems arise when you have something and the doctor's can't fix it, like Mike's wife. You get pretty desperate to have some quality of life and are likely to try a lot of things. By the time they figured out Overspark had cancer and operated on him, I was getting desperate myself. It wouldn't have been much longer before I would have considered resorting to the herbs picked in the year of the goat just to see if it would at least alleviate some of the pain and discomfort.
    Mate, I know where you're coming from, but let us be honest - there are things nobody can fix (yet). I am sincerely sorry, but this is how things work. Not so long ago, people were dying from cholera and the black plague and we eradicated those today. I (still) haven't lost a patient in almost 9 years of practice, but I am at peace that when it is inevitable, I will be able to comfort them and their family. It does break my heart as well, we're not insensitive pricks (well, some of us aren't). The thing is we should help the relatives and people closest to them be at peace as well and see it more as a relief after a long suffering rather than something that should be avoided at all costs. We all die, eventually.

    I am also extremely pissed off at the governments for making certain things illegal - like weed and stuffs like that - those were proven they're not harmful, allow some people to use them to make their passing comfortable at least. It is in my opinion one of the most cruel things people are doing to people nowadays.
    I've pointed out how I interpret "holistic" and why I believe in my own interpretation. That seems to coincide with everyone's reasonable opinion here and doesn't mean the creepy non-effective approach

    Yes, of course there are things you cannot fix. Not as a doctor and not as a patient. That doesn't mean the patient can easily accept that and might not search onwards. Sometimes it leads to a second (or third) opinion from a doctor who does see an option for treatment. Sometimes that even works. Sometimes it leads to lifestyle changes. (We all know many patients are unwilling or incapable of that - whether's it's smoking cigarettes or ingesting too much/the wrong food (I'm thinking of my diabetic uncle who has never yet met a cookie he didn't devour); I don't hold the doctors responsible, obviously. Most people want the magic pill and it doesn't exist.) Many times the search for another treatment ends in questionable therapies or just a dead end.

    In my case there is evidence that lifestyle changes do work, but they are rigorous and require constant discipline; there's no cheating. Personally I don't give a shit and do it, I don't want to end in a wheelchair or worse, with cognitive impairment. Fuck cheese and fried stuff, hello walking. Evidence in my own case: so far so good, no new relapses, optimistic neurologist. Would I take Copaxone or Interferon if my "holistic approach" wasn't working? Absolutely. I'm just not doing it until I absolutely have to, the side effects are terrible. Want to call it alternative or holistic and consider me crazy? Be my guest, but do tell me when you look me in the face that you wouldn't try it if it was your brain developing lesions. What made me do this? Scientific evidence, although not sponsored by the pharmaceutical industry. That is another thing to keep in mind: the pharmaceutical industry is only interested in research of the magic pill kind. So yeah, go with science, but don't lose your skepticism and keep looking for the money trail.

    PS Freddy, Overspark's problems would not have been fixed by THC. That's just the particulars of the case, not an unwillingness to try that. Obviously we could get it a lot easier than many people in the world. Dutchlands ahoy

    Edit: The Steve Jobs story just made me raise an eyebrow. I never liked the man, don't particularly care either way. Just to be clear

  14. #34
    FatFreddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    14,181
    Quote Originally Posted by indi View Post

    PS Freddy, Overspark's problems would not have been fixed by THC. That's just the particulars of the case, not an unwillingness to try that. Obviously we could get it a lot easier than many people in the world. Dutchlands ahoy
    I suspected as much, but was still curious. Too bad If THC was the superduperremedy for chronic patients many desperate stoners hoping for legalization make it out to be, we'd probably have experienced a paradigm shift in pain medicine by now ^^
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot
    Pastry.. That the best you can do?
    Quote Originally Posted by NotXenosis View Post

    M8, i have discussions that spam multiple accounts, you aren't even on my level

  15. #35
    Cosmin's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 14, 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    5,957
    I hope nobody here actually implied thc is a cure. It can be considered paliative at best, but in some cases works wonders in pain management in people who are already filled to brim with morphine and the likes. Wasn't the case with Overspark I suppose since he is still alive his condition wasn't terminal.

    Indi, I get it, but this is an informed choice you made. Some people just stumble upon "wonder" treatments and assume they work. Most do not work.

    I also need to book than plane ticket to Hollandistan already.


    Sent via iPigeon.
    Guns make the news, science doesn't.

  16. #36
    FatFreddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    14,181
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    I hope nobody here actually implied thc is a cure. It can be considered paliative at best, but in some cases works wonders in pain management in people who are already filled to brim with morphine and the likes. Wasn't the case with Overspark I suppose since he is still alive his condition wasn't terminal.

    Indi, I get it, but this is an informed choice you made. Some people just stumble upon "wonder" treatments and assume they work. Most do not work.

    I also need to book than plane ticket to Hollandistan already.


    Sent via iPigeon.
    No, don't worry, I brought up the THC thingy out of interest and this is the gist of the conversation (all copypasted quotes):

    Indi: It wouldn't have been much longer before I would have considered resorting to the herbs picked in the year of the goat just to see if it would at least alleviate some of the pain and discomfort.
    Freddy: (re: herbs) why not THC, which is actually proven to be an effective pain remedy in some cases
    Indi: Overspark's problems would not have been fixed by THC. That's just the particulars of the case
    Freddy: I suspected as much, but was still curious.
    Last edited by FatFreddy; March 14 2015 at 04:00:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot
    Pastry.. That the best you can do?
    Quote Originally Posted by NotXenosis View Post

    M8, i have discussions that spam multiple accounts, you aren't even on my level

  17. #37

    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    345
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Yes, but you see, good doctors do this too. They just don't use pompous words to express common sense. Let's say somebody is being treated for cancer with a mix of chemo and radiotherapy. Obviously if they eat like shit, they'll be a lot worse than others who manage a healthy diet. Chemo is extremely toxic on your body and the combination is guaranteed to cut your appetite and what not, but it depends a lot on the people surrounding the patient. If there is good support, the patient will manage to cram inside them some healthy food and will feel better when the regime ends and their recovery will be enhanced. But here we're actually hitting another wall, on how retarded the patient's family/friends are, etc.
    This is mostly wrong. During my chemo I gained 15kg because of a increase in appetite, which isn't uncommon. Many chemo regimens include some kind of corticosteroids which have a increase in appetite and bloating as a common side effect. Granted, many patients lose weight, though for a large part that is due to the cancer itself and not just the chemo. Eating enough is important but eating healthy, however, has never been shown to have any significant effect. Patients are actually told to eat whatever they can stomach whenever they want, and not worry about if its healthy or anything. You just have to put calories inside you, and if you happen to crave fast food at 3am, then go to town on it.
    Ironically, eating healthy is mostly a concern for healthy people.

  18. #38

    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    345
    Quote Originally Posted by FatFreddy View Post
    Can't rep back right now, so, Indi: People who claim Steve Jobs refused a transplant from one of his closest friends: 1, the close friend, in a mourning biography years after his death
    Steve Jobs manipulating donor lists with millions of dollars: Proven fact

    Just with medicine, I'll stick with the facts..

    Also, I'd say it is completely irrelevant to the actual points discussed and you chose to bring him up first as example :\

    Its not about his liver transplant. When he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer he spend nine months on alternative medicine before going for surgery and chemo. For most pancreatic cancers that wouldn't matter as you'll die either way, but he actually had a rare form that is pretty treatable. If he had gone for mainstream medicine straight away there is a good chance he would still be alive.

    Edit:
    And yeah, the whole Tim Cook liver transplant story is a travesty. He should never have received the first liver (you don't do organ transplants in metastatic cancer patients). And a second transplant would probably not even have been possible due to his poor health condition, and even if it was the best case scenario would be that he'd get to live a few weeks more.
    Last edited by MortyM; March 14 2015 at 05:26:49 PM.

  19. #39
    Movember 2012 Stoffl's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    The original viennese waffle
    Posts
    21,737
    Cbd is want you want for medicinal use, not so much thc.

    Poasting from my couch
    2/10/17 Greatposthellpurge never forget
    23/10/17 The Greatreposteninging ?

  20. #40
    Cosmin's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 14, 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    5,957
    Quote Originally Posted by MortyM View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Yes, but you see, good doctors do this too. They just don't use pompous words to express common sense. Let's say somebody is being treated for cancer with a mix of chemo and radiotherapy. Obviously if they eat like shit, they'll be a lot worse than others who manage a healthy diet. Chemo is extremely toxic on your body and the combination is guaranteed to cut your appetite and what not, but it depends a lot on the people surrounding the patient. If there is good support, the patient will manage to cram inside them some healthy food and will feel better when the regime ends and their recovery will be enhanced. But here we're actually hitting another wall, on how retarded the patient's family/friends are, etc.
    This is mostly wrong. During my chemo I gained 15kg because of a increase in appetite, which isn't uncommon. Many chemo regimens include some kind of corticosteroids which have a increase in appetite and bloating as a common side effect. Granted, many patients lose weight, though for a large part that is due to the cancer itself and not just the chemo. Eating enough is important but eating healthy, however, has never been shown to have any significant effect. Patients are actually told to eat whatever they can stomach whenever they want, and not worry about if its healthy or anything. You just have to put calories inside you, and if you happen to crave fast food at 3am, then go to town on it.
    Ironically, eating healthy is mostly a concern for healthy people.
    I don't mean to be mean, but your case is your case in particular and I've mentioned chemo + radiotherapy there, not just chemo alone. Also explain please how eating junk food is the same as eating healthy (i.e. cooked food and salads) for a cancer patient. Do englighten me, it's shit for healthy people, how is it the same for people bombarded with poison and radiation? And the crippling effects that you see on cancer patients' faces isn't really the cancer, but the treatment. It depends on what type of cancer and what type of chemo, obviously, but for most intent and purposes, chemo is poison. Read the fucking labels.
    Guns make the news, science doesn't.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •