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Thread: Power Creep, or How CCP Continually Drops the Ball

  1. #1
    prometheus's Avatar
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    Power Creep, or How CCP Continually Drops the Ball

    Let me preface by saying I've been playing this game since 2007.
    I've seen all manner of shit, and that's part of what makes the content of this post so frustrating to me.
    It doesn't matter who works at CCP, they just don't get it.

    The dev team has a habit of continually BOOSTING things beyond reasonable levels, and scaling things back a year or two later.
    This is such bad design, it boggles my mind that they keep doing it.

    They are so slow to react that by the time they DO nerf something, it's so heavy handed that nobody even uses the stuff anymore.
    Recent Examples: Drakes, Vagabonds, Dramiels, Falcons, HMLs.

    They are so concerned about making everyone happy, and making nice with all the shit, that they lose sight of what makes the game work.

    Skynet/RSB/Gate Guns
    Probably the oldest example I can give. Skynetting has been around for AGES, and CCP is only just starting to notice the problems with it.
    For those unaware, Skynet is where a figher-laden cap will distribute its ships to various members around a system. While not a new concept, the introduction of DDAs has made them much more powerful than any previous iteration. Combined with the awful gate mechanics present with RSB-Instalock camps, skynetting is a much maligned aspect of EVE that was in dire need of changing. RSB mechanics are still at large though, and there is no nerf in the foreseeable future.

    In LowSec this sort of thing is a potentially bigger issue because Gate Guns are heavily exploitable.
    Currently if you take aggression on a gate, you just need to get out of gun range and come back. Those guns will never shoot you again.
    This means people can heavily camp a gate with next to no consequence from the high-damage Gate Guns.


    Mordus Angels
    The first batch of CCPs *perfect* ships. The Mordus are an example of everything that is wrong w/ the balance team.
    You have an extremely fast & agile ship with near perfect ranged damage application, and a tackling bonus.
    CCP prides themselves in one-upmanship, so the Mordus ships naturally outperform all the other pirate factions by a very large margin.

    The Garmur & Barghest are less of an issue in comparison to the Orthrus. The Garmur performs like some sort of extreme Interceptor, but with large range.
    It's the least threatening of the lot, simply because the damage output is so low.

    The Barghest isn't an awful ship, but it has the potential to be quite broken should CCP ever revisit the HML nerf we received not too long ago.

    The Orthrus is a joke. It's given a blanket damage bonus which means it is capable of more than 40k damage dealt in under 1 minute.. With RLMLs.
    People will argue that because it has RLMLs, it's crippled by reload time. I will tell you it is a non-issue. There are very very few ships that can A. Tank that much damage, B. Catch an Orthrus, C. Outrange an Orthrus without gimping itself to other ships.
    The Orthrus can take its pick of what targets it would like to shoot down, largely because it slays frigates without issue.

    People will also argue that the cost of the ship balances things out, to which I politely ask said folks to fuck themselves.
    Anyone around for the initial faction rebalance will remember how expensive the ships were, and notice how cheap they are (ie: Cynabal is 140m).

    The primary issue with the Orthrus is the blanket damage bonus. Bonus it towards HMLs and/or HAMs and you have a far less broken ship.
    There is no reason a ship that fast and that damaging should have all the tools to slay all the ships capable of catching it.


    T3Destroyers
    Another example of balancing ineptitude. In traditional CCP fashion, they have created a new ship class that obliterates every T1 cruiser (some T2), and all frigate/destroyer hulls... Right after adjusting said classes.
    The T3D are where CCP take all the lessons learned about balance, and throwing them out the window.
    You have a tiny hull, with very simple 10mn AB fittings, high damage, and a high tank. The vast majority of medium hulls simply can't hit them, and smaller craft very easily fall by the wayside.

    We only have 2 of the 4, but CCP has already shown off their one-upmanship but making the Confessor look downright tame next to the Svipul.
    Shield tanking on the Svipul is far far far too easy to do, and it's only made worse by Link ships & pirate implants. Hell, I think a big slap to fitment will go a long way in bringing these ships in line.

    The argument of cost is also thrown out the window, when T3D are currently cheaper than Interdictors.
    I would say that along with AFs, Interdictors are obsolete thanks to these but those are still needed for bubbles. That is the only reason to choose one over a T3D.
    Hell, in LowSec the T3D are allowed in the same small complexes as the other frig-sized kin. WTF?



    None of these things would be so bad if CCP weren't SO SLOW to react. Neither of these ships mentioned have been iterated on since they were first shown to the public.
    Despite players testing, arguing, and discussing the downsides to these ships, CCP hasn't done anything.
    What makes it worse is that even if a change IS coming in a year or so, is that CCP is clearly inept. They keep doing this.

    Wouldn't it make sense to release WEAKER ships than intended and then iterate afterward? Wouldn't boosting ship usage be better than nuking them into oblivion after release?
    This just reeks of the devs not doing their homework.

    What may be more unsettling is that maybe they think they're doing well.

    My sub renewal comes up at the end of April, and I'm really considering going full-vet.

    [/rant]
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  2. #2
    FatFreddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Let me preface by saying I've been playing this game since 2007.
    Joke's on you, then. (see definiton of insanity ^^)
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    I've been playing since 2005, and this is also my largest frustration in recent years. Game balance is worse today than it was five years ago, but most people seem to be happy when they get the latest overpowered toy. Most people also go on to complain about how few ships are actually used. It's infuriating.

    I'd like to mention what I think is the worst part of the power creep in recent years; speed. After the nano-nerf and before the cruiser rebalancing kiting speed for non-frigates was pretty much anything over ~1400 m/s. These days it's more like 2500 m/s. I really don't enjoy the game at this pace and it's just made the difference in speed almost insurmountable for brawlers and anything larger than a cruiser. Every new ship that is introduced also goes faster than the last, all while combined with more projection bonuses.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalSin View Post
    Game balance is worse today than it was five years ago
    Nope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noobonga View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MalSin View Post
    Game balance is worse today than it was five years ago
    Nope.
    Edit: You're a fucking 2009/08/01, you were barely even playing five years ago. Shut the fuck up.

    EDIT2:

    Wow, you're one particularly useless fuck in this thread then.
    Last edited by MalSin; March 7 2015 at 02:04:46 PM.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalSin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Noobonga View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MalSin View Post
    Game balance is worse today than it was five years ago
    Nope.
    Edit: You're a fucking 2009/08/01, you were barely even playing five years ago. Shut the fuck up.

    EDIT2:

    Wow, you're one particularly useless fuck in this thread then.
    You're dumb and arrogant mate, take off your rose tinted glasses and get your head out of your ass.

    5 years ago was the time of the dram cyn and mach. No ships got close to them performance wise. T1 cruisers where shit, most hacs where shit, drakes and canes where good, sleipnir was good, rest of the bc's where subpar.

    All the other faction and pirate ships where atrocious except maybe the dd and vindi.

    Battleships where shit, marauders where shit, frigs where almost all shit, not even talking about eaf.

    Vagabond was decent, maybe deimos for solo.

    Superb balance there really...

    Nowadays almost all t1 and t2 frigs are decent, t1 cruisers are amazing fun, t1 logis are good, eaf's are used, hacs are still badly balanced but mostly cause of the ishtar, bc's are slightly shafted, bs are good even if you dont like em', marauders are good, t3's are a tad OP pirate ships are between good and OP.

    And they are tackling the ishtar and the brick tank t3's in the next patch. Except a handful of exceptions shit is pretty well balanced, you are just too deep in your own ass to notice.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
      Spoiler:
    Let me preface by saying I've been playing this game since 2007.
    I've seen all manner of shit, and that's part of what makes the content of this post so frustrating to me.
    It doesn't matter who works at CCP, they just don't get it.

    The dev team has a habit of continually BOOSTING things beyond reasonable levels, and scaling things back a year or two later.
    This is such bad design, it boggles my mind that they keep doing it.

    They are so slow to react that by the time they DO nerf something, it's so heavy handed that nobody even uses the stuff anymore.
    Recent Examples: Drakes, Vagabonds, Dramiels, Falcons, HMLs.

    They are so concerned about making everyone happy, and making nice with all the shit, that they lose sight of what makes the game work.

    Skynet/RSB/Gate Guns
    Probably the oldest example I can give. Skynetting has been around for AGES, and CCP is only just starting to notice the problems with it.
    For those unaware, Skynet is where a figher-laden cap will distribute its ships to various members around a system. While not a new concept, the introduction of DDAs has made them much more powerful than any previous iteration. Combined with the awful gate mechanics present with RSB-Instalock camps, skynetting is a much maligned aspect of EVE that was in dire need of changing. RSB mechanics are still at large though, and there is no nerf in the foreseeable future.

    In LowSec this sort of thing is a potentially bigger issue because Gate Guns are heavily exploitable.
    Currently if you take aggression on a gate, you just need to get out of gun range and come back. Those guns will never shoot you again.
    This means people can heavily camp a gate with next to no consequence from the high-damage Gate Guns.


    Mordus Angels
    The first batch of CCPs *perfect* ships. The Mordus are an example of everything that is wrong w/ the balance team.
    You have an extremely fast & agile ship with near perfect ranged damage application, and a tackling bonus.
    CCP prides themselves in one-upmanship, so the Mordus ships naturally outperform all the other pirate factions by a very large margin.

    The Garmur & Barghest are less of an issue in comparison to the Orthrus. The Garmur performs like some sort of extreme Interceptor, but with large range.
    It's the least threatening of the lot, simply because the damage output is so low.

    The Barghest isn't an awful ship, but it has the potential to be quite broken should CCP ever revisit the HML nerf we received not too long ago.

    The Orthrus is a joke. It's given a blanket damage bonus which means it is capable of more than 40k damage dealt in under 1 minute.. With RLMLs.
    People will argue that because it has RLMLs, it's crippled by reload time. I will tell you it is a non-issue. There are very very few ships that can A. Tank that much damage, B. Catch an Orthrus, C. Outrange an Orthrus without gimping itself to other ships.
    The Orthrus can take its pick of what targets it would like to shoot down, largely because it slays frigates without issue.

    People will also argue that the cost of the ship balances things out, to which I politely ask said folks to fuck themselves.
    Anyone around for the initial faction rebalance will remember how expensive the ships were, and notice how cheap they are (ie: Cynabal is 140m).

    The primary issue with the Orthrus is the blanket damage bonus. Bonus it towards HMLs and/or HAMs and you have a far less broken ship.
    There is no reason a ship that fast and that damaging should have all the tools to slay all the ships capable of catching it.


    T3Destroyers
    Another example of balancing ineptitude. In traditional CCP fashion, they have created a new ship class that obliterates every T1 cruiser (some T2), and all frigate/destroyer hulls... Right after adjusting said classes.
    The T3D are where CCP take all the lessons learned about balance, and throwing them out the window.
    You have a tiny hull, with very simple 10mn AB fittings, high damage, and a high tank. The vast majority of medium hulls simply can't hit them, and smaller craft very easily fall by the wayside.

    We only have 2 of the 4, but CCP has already shown off their one-upmanship but making the Confessor look downright tame next to the Svipul.
    Shield tanking on the Svipul is far far far too easy to do, and it's only made worse by Link ships & pirate implants. Hell, I think a big slap to fitment will go a long way in bringing these ships in line.

    The argument of cost is also thrown out the window, when T3D are currently cheaper than Interdictors.
    I would say that along with AFs, Interdictors are obsolete thanks to these but those are still needed for bubbles. That is the only reason to choose one over a T3D.
    Hell, in LowSec the T3D are allowed in the same small complexes as the other frig-sized kin. WTF?



    None of these things would be so bad if CCP weren't SO SLOW to react. Neither of these ships mentioned have been iterated on since they were first shown to the public.
    Despite players testing, arguing, and discussing the downsides to these ships, CCP hasn't done anything.
    What makes it worse is that even if a change IS coming in a year or so, is that CCP is clearly inept. They keep doing this.

    Wouldn't it make sense to release WEAKER ships than intended and then iterate afterward? Wouldn't boosting ship usage be better than nuking them into oblivion after release?
    This just reeks of the devs not doing their homework.

    What may be more unsettling is that maybe they think they're doing well.

    My sub renewal comes up at the end of April, and I'm really considering going full-vet.

    [/rant]
    Don't know what to say besides yes to everything you said, nailed it.

      Spoiler:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baarhyn View Post
    bc's are slightly shafted, bs are good even if you dont like em',
    Are you being sarcastic, or are you genuinely that naive?

  9. #9
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    To be fair, BCs can be fixed by simply giving them more cruiser-like warps/aligns.
    Bombers ARE annoying, but I still fly BCs in 00 and I haven't had much of an issue.

    BS should probably be as fast as BCs are currently.
    Their ship stats are fine, its warp/lock stats which make them a total shitfest.
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  10. #10
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    battleships and battlecruisers have rig slots for a reason you know. If you think they roam slow just take a combat ability hit by fitting one warp speed rig to get up to cruiser speed.

    https://zkillboard.com/character/195872744/ have a look to see all the fun im having in eve. If you arent having fun in eve you`re probably bad at eve. Please better yourself.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Longdrinks View Post
    battleships and battlecruisers have rig slots for a reason you know. If you think they roam slow just take a combat ability hit by fitting one warp speed rig to get up to cruiser speed.
    Or just take a Cruiser and not have to gimp it.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalSin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Longdrinks View Post
    battleships and battlecruisers have rig slots for a reason you know. If you think they roam slow just take a combat ability hit by fitting one warp speed rig to get up to cruiser speed.
    Or just take a Cruiser and not have to gimp it.
    So you gimp a BS by using a rig slot...

    How about those mapc's on frigs, fitting modules, fitting implants and using faction or meta 4 shit on just about every ship to make them fit.

    Are you gimping all of those too?

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    I'd like to mention what I think is the worst part of the power creep in recent years; speed. After the nano-nerf and before the cruiser rebalancing kiting speed for non-frigates was pretty much anything over ~1400 m/s. These days it's more like 2500 m/s.
    Part of what makes speed creep ridiculous is not just how high the numbers have gotten for the fast stuff, but also that the low-end of speed has barely moved. If you're not breaking 2km/s in a nano-cruiser you can go home, but combat cruisers are still crawling along at ~1400 m/s for the most part.

    The Mordus ships are just awful design. I'm honestly not sure there's a subcapital that can reliably catch and defeat a competently handled Orthrus, even if it's straight up hatefit. Garmurs might not be as bad overall, but they're still aids in frigate-heavy metas. I've seen FW shift from a fairly mixed AB/MWD meta to an MWD-dominated one because of ships like the Garmur (although this was starting well before the Garmur came out).

    I still think people are looking backwards with rose-tinted glasses about battlecruisers/battleships during the Retribution <-> Rubicon period.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baarhyn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MalSin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Longdrinks View Post
    battleships and battlecruisers have rig slots for a reason you know. If you think they roam slow just take a combat ability hit by fitting one warp speed rig to get up to cruiser speed.
    Or just take a Cruiser and not have to gimp it.
    So you gimp a BS by using a rig slot...

    How about those mapc's on frigs, fitting modules, fitting implants and using faction or meta 4 shit on just about every ship to make them fit.

    Are you gimping all of those too?
    Notice I said "a Cruiser", and not "a Frigate" mate.

  15. #15
    HEY LOOK AT ME I HAVE A TITAN LordsServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baarhyn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MalSin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Noobonga View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MalSin View Post
    Game balance is worse today than it was five years ago
    Nope.
    Edit: You're a fucking 2009/08/01, you were barely even playing five years ago. Shut the fuck up.

    EDIT2:

    Wow, you're one particularly useless fuck in this thread then.
    You're dumb and arrogant mate, take off your rose tinted glasses and get your head out of your ass.

    5 years ago was the time of the dram cyn and mach. No ships got close to them performance wise. T1 cruisers where shit, most hacs where shit, drakes and canes where good, sleipnir was good, rest of the bc's where subpar.

    All the other faction and pirate ships where atrocious except maybe the dd and vindi.

    Battleships where shit, marauders where shit, frigs where almost all shit, not even talking about eaf.

    Vagabond was decent, maybe deimos for solo.

    Superb balance there really...

    Nowadays almost all t1 and t2 frigs are decent, t1 cruisers are amazing fun, t1 logis are good, eaf's are used, hacs are still badly balanced but mostly cause of the ishtar, bc's are slightly shafted, bs are good even if you dont like em', marauders are good, t3's are a tad OP pirate ships are between good and OP.

    And they are tackling the ishtar and the brick tank t3's in the next patch. Except a handful of exceptions shit is pretty well balanced, you are just too deep in your own ass to notice.
    Right, battleships were shit, which is why literally everyone flew Abaddons, Maelstroms, and once the Large Railgun bonus went through - Rokhs.

    The only people flying drakes were the same shit groups you see exploiting numbers/the blob today - Init, -A-, Atlas(the reformed one), and cfc (for those who couldn't fly maelstroms).

    Deimos was fucking garbage - the hac bonus hadn't gone through yet, and the only person really flying it was Prom with his nos fit. There was no tank bonus and it still only had 3 mids. Vaga was ok, same with cynabal due to TE's still being very good, esp with falloff bonus.

    The dramiel was actually half useful back then, and nowhere near the nerfed failure it is today. It was never OP - most of 'you people' consider anything that can run away from engagements and/or pick what it wants to fight "OP."

    You know the kiting nano slicer fit that's around today and is considered pretty damn good?
    https://zkillboard.com/kill/-10850225/

    Looking at zkillboard, that was my first iteration I lost of it back in 2010(and I wasn't even the first to use em like that, altho they weren't common when I was flying them, considering how noone in FW seemed to know how I was fit or how to fight me when I was in TMFED). I regularly dumpstered "OP" dramiels with it for years after as well.

    Yes, t1 cruisers were a little underpowered - but quite a bit more balanced than they are now where a few of them have stupid amounts of speed for absolutely no reason. I open up EFT and try to build a kiting fit, and I immediately discard anything that moves slower than 2-2.5k, and even then I want north of 3k unless there's some SERIOUS advantages otherwise.

    Things aren't quite as horrible as people say atm, but I can definitely agree that shit needs to be slowed the fuck down. Frigs(esp AFs)/Destroyers need to be sped up in a few cases, and cruisers need their speed dropped super fucking hard. Half the issue with speed isn't that some ships are faster than others in a simple comparison, but that they can move around and do things that they shouldn't be able to. Point range, web range, etc etc all haven't increased in years, yet the average speed of ships has.

    It doesn't matter that a cruiser can move north of 5k heated when a t1BC struggles to do half of that - it DOES matter that said cruiser can be out of point range in <6-7 seconds if it heats before the BC does - and it can close into web/scram range just as quickly to tackle said ships. If they dropped down both ships' speeds, you'd end up with similar balance in regards to mobility between ship classes, but you wouldn't have a lot of the issues you have now in regards to how FAST everything happens.
    Last edited by LordsServant; March 9 2015 at 03:32:04 PM. Reason: edited for ~mad~
    It's 2020. Get a grip.

  16. #16
    Smuggo
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    I broadly agree with OP.

    I'm not too fussed about X ship being ridiculous and X being rubbish... so long as that never stays the same for an extended period.

    IMO they should aim to completely rebalance everything at least twice a year. So change all the stats. Ships, guns, other mods etc... and just see what happens, though obviously taking into account user stats, so stuff getting used a lot gets nerfed and underused stuff gets a buff.

    At least that way, the meta is constantly shifting and people need to take time to adapt and figure out new tactics, rather than just abuse the fuck out of whatever the FOTM is because they know it is gonna be like that for probably at least 2 years. The key is to keep things moving and keep players having to come up with new ideas.

  17. #17
    HEY LOOK AT ME I HAVE A TITAN LordsServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    I broadly agree with OP.

    I'm not too fussed about X ship being ridiculous and X being rubbish... so long as that never stays the same for an extended period.

    IMO they should aim to completely rebalance everything at least twice a year. So change all the stats. Ships, guns, other mods etc... and just see what happens, though obviously taking into account user stats, so stuff getting used a lot gets nerfed and underused stuff gets a buff.

    At least that way, the meta is constantly shifting and people need to take time to adapt and figure out new tactics, rather than just abuse the fuck out of whatever the FOTM is because they know it is gonna be like that for probably at least 2 years. The key is to keep things moving and keep players having to come up with new ideas.
    That works in games where you can get new fotm superfast.

    It's easy for us (at least I assume you have my same perspective, you post here after all) to look at all these different ideas and judge them based on merits/balance alone.

    Other/newer players, maybe even those just entering the game? Training time. I haven't thought of "training for" a certain doctrine in several years since I can already fly everything, but if you join the game as a noob, training is kinda a big deal.

    If you join in july, and are told to train x, but x gets nerfed in favor of y come december - what then? Oh you train for y, then it gets nerfed for z.....which is both tanking differently and using an entirely different weapons system. People are frustrated enough by eve; rather than making it more difficult/confusing to get stuff, we should focus on making everything viable.

    Let other games like LoL do their random nerfing/buffing all the time - you can "grind" into a new champion or w/e in a single day if you cba. Eve is quite different, and requires an entirely different balancing mindset.
    It's 2020. Get a grip.

  18. #18
    Smuggo
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordsServant View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    I broadly agree with OP.

    I'm not too fussed about X ship being ridiculous and X being rubbish... so long as that never stays the same for an extended period.

    IMO they should aim to completely rebalance everything at least twice a year. So change all the stats. Ships, guns, other mods etc... and just see what happens, though obviously taking into account user stats, so stuff getting used a lot gets nerfed and underused stuff gets a buff.

    At least that way, the meta is constantly shifting and people need to take time to adapt and figure out new tactics, rather than just abuse the fuck out of whatever the FOTM is because they know it is gonna be like that for probably at least 2 years. The key is to keep things moving and keep players having to come up with new ideas.
    That works in games where you can get new fotm superfast.

    It's easy for us (at least I assume you have my same perspective, you post here after all) to look at all these different ideas and judge them based on merits/balance alone.

    Other/newer players, maybe even those just entering the game? Training time. I haven't thought of "training for" a certain doctrine in several years since I can already fly everything, but if you join the game as a noob, training is kinda a big deal.

    If you join in july, and are told to train x, but x gets nerfed in favor of y come december - what then? Oh you train for y, then it gets nerfed for z.....which is both tanking differently and using an entirely different weapons system. People are frustrated enough by eve; rather than making it more difficult/confusing to get stuff, we should focus on making everything viable.

    Let other games like LoL do their random nerfing/buffing all the time - you can "grind" into a new champion or w/e in a single day if you cba. Eve is quite different, and requires an entirely different balancing mindset.
    But it will never be "balanced" as such. You can never achieve anything even vaguely balanced, so IMO the only option left is to just change the meta constantly.

    Most races/weapon systems have some sort of viable role in some situation. Like, recon bonuses are always going to be useful, same for tackle ceptors, dictors, logi. And then other stuff can be made to fit a doctrine, it might not be ideal, but it does the job and is 99% of the time gonna be better than not having someone in a ship.

  19. #19
    HEY LOOK AT ME I HAVE A TITAN LordsServant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LordsServant View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    I broadly agree with OP.

    I'm not too fussed about X ship being ridiculous and X being rubbish... so long as that never stays the same for an extended period.

    IMO they should aim to completely rebalance everything at least twice a year. So change all the stats. Ships, guns, other mods etc... and just see what happens, though obviously taking into account user stats, so stuff getting used a lot gets nerfed and underused stuff gets a buff.

    At least that way, the meta is constantly shifting and people need to take time to adapt and figure out new tactics, rather than just abuse the fuck out of whatever the FOTM is because they know it is gonna be like that for probably at least 2 years. The key is to keep things moving and keep players having to come up with new ideas.
    That works in games where you can get new fotm superfast.

    It's easy for us (at least I assume you have my same perspective, you post here after all) to look at all these different ideas and judge them based on merits/balance alone.

    Other/newer players, maybe even those just entering the game? Training time. I haven't thought of "training for" a certain doctrine in several years since I can already fly everything, but if you join the game as a noob, training is kinda a big deal.

    If you join in july, and are told to train x, but x gets nerfed in favor of y come december - what then? Oh you train for y, then it gets nerfed for z.....which is both tanking differently and using an entirely different weapons system. People are frustrated enough by eve; rather than making it more difficult/confusing to get stuff, we should focus on making everything viable.

    Let other games like LoL do their random nerfing/buffing all the time - you can "grind" into a new champion or w/e in a single day if you cba. Eve is quite different, and requires an entirely different balancing mindset.
    But it will never be "balanced" as such. You can never achieve anything even vaguely balanced, so IMO the only option left is to just change the meta constantly.

    Most races/weapon systems have some sort of viable role in some situation. Like, recon bonuses are always going to be useful, same for tackle ceptors, dictors, logi. And then other stuff can be made to fit a doctrine, it might not be ideal, but it does the job and is 99% of the time gonna be better than not having someone in a ship.
    Rock, Paper, Scissors is balanced. You can make it balanced without issue. People arguing that something is or is not balanced is an entirely different issue, and if someone overly relies on one tactic (ie bring all of the numbers) they will, ofc, argue that any tactic that counters that or works well against that is "imbalanced" and try to get it removed/nerfed.

    Recon bonuses can be useful, as a ceptors, dictors, and logi, but not everyone enjoys flying that stuff. As it stands right now, you can train for 1 shield and 1 armor logi and be useful/valued in 90% of all fleets ingame. People enjoy getting the feeling - however illusory that may be - that them pressing f1 and getting a pretty damage notification somehow makes a difference in the fight. If they just finished training for Abaddons, they sure as hell don't want to be forced to turn around and train for Ravens just because those two were arbitrarily picked to be nerfed/buffed that particular patch.

    Same with all of the logi people - while this is a less reasonable argument, at the scale some groups in eve play at, having to constantly import/retool ALL of their stuff to a different doctrine or w/e can be very complicated and annoying. Especially with the new reality of Phoebe, its no longer easy to just grab x of shiptype y from jita and cyno it down in your jf or bridge half a dozen freighters thru a titan.

    However, balancing out things and giving people different options should be a thing - once people realize that there is x beats y beats z beats x, then it gets a lot better.

    I don't see how having ishtars online for 6months, then abaddons online for 6 months after that, then megas online for 6 months after that, then....

    That's just boring. I'd rather see Maelstroms beat Abaddons beat Ahacs beat Maelstroms or something to that effect. As I've pointed out in other places as well, I don't want to see this just on the subcap field as well. THis should fully extend across various ship classes as well - we should have subs vs caps vs subs vs supers or w/e.

    Balance isn't easy, but it needs to be, and can be, done.
    It's 2020. Get a grip.

  20. #20
    Bocephus's Avatar
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    The ship rebalances have taken entirely too long. The assault frigate changes are now over three years old and we still haven't rebalanced a lot of ships. Assault frigates were rebalanced so long ago, they are already overdue for another rebalance. Everything (including capitals) should have been done now and CCP should have possibly started on a fresh balance pass.

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