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Thread: Vote to give up democracy?

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    I'd much prefer a democracy where one's vote is earned through service as opposed to birth...
    Sounds good in theory, but who's to define what does count as "service"? And how much of "it" grants you the privilege? What are about those that can't - for whatever reason - provide the service(s) required?

  2. #22
    Donor Aea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    I'd much prefer a democracy where one's vote is earned through service as opposed to birth...
    Sounds good in theory, but who's to define what does count as "service"? And how much of "it" grants you the privilege? What are about those that can't - for whatever reason - provide the service(s) required?
    It's very simple, you have to be a white slaveland-holder. All sarcasm aside that's exactly the sort of problems non-universal citizenship leads to. And that's the start.

    Then you'd be dealing with a small group of people making decisions for the majority. There's already enough issues w/ representation in republics that this would just be a non-starter TBH.

    So I can't possibly see how this would be a "good in theory" idea to anybody but those who would be part of the special cliche.

  3. #23
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    Regarding the OP, from a philosophical perspective you are basically asking "is the tyranny of the majority ok?", to which the answer is no. I know that sounds a bit glib, but Democracies must have their actions clamped in some form to prevent Democratic tyranny. Tyranny, esp. in an American context, is always assumed to be originating from a handful of of people - such as corporate CEOs, judges, senators, the President, white landowners, etc. From a historical perspective, Democracy kind of evolved out of an effort to solve this tyranny by the minority by divesting political power into a wider block of people (voters).

    However, the other extreme can also prove a source of tyranny: when you get large groups of people - majorities and even super majorities - oppressing a minority or doing something otherwise very negative for the state. A Democracy that can overwhelmingly vote to commit state suicide isn't a "legitimate" Democracy in the first place precisely because there aren't any institutional limits preventing this kind of action. A democracy that can vote to become a 2bit dictatorship is also capable of killing all the Jews cause hey, the people voted for it. The Weimar Republic basically did exactly what the OP is describing, and it gave us Nazis and Godwin's law (which this post now runs afoul of).


    @ the current thought that the United States isn't a "competent" Democracy: (just going to sum some of the current discussion instead of block quotes). Spoilering it cause long

      Spoiler:


    Competence depends on your definition. As a US citizen, I'm very, very frustrated with our federal government. I've very, very frustrated with most state governments. Local governments can be incredibly hit or miss (never underestimate the tyranny of a small man given a modicum of power). I can point to any number of headline issues that has left me depressed and despondent, because I see absolutely no real chance of changing the status quo, and even if there were to be a change, for that change to be in a direction that I would approve of.

    Turns out, if you don't drink the koolaid, a PoliSci degree in the United States is like a degree in depression

    That said, I would not classify the United States, on the whole, as an incompetent democracy. In fact, on technical grounds, I would not ever consider our federal level of government a democracy at all. You could probably closer define it as a managed federalist system of sorts, but its not what a layman would understand as a democracy. I'm convinced that the public at large doesn't realize that they don't actually vote for the president.

    The United States is very, very stable. Outside of the Civil War (which was really just resolving issues that have existed since long before the Union's birth), there has never been any real civil conflict. Change in the States often comes slowly, but it has only once had to come from the barrel of a gun. Our political system is guaranteed to generate only two political parties, but these parties act more like vessels of action, rather than really defining a policy agenda by themselves. The parties themselves pick up and drop ideologies as a means to gather votes, not because either party cares about the ideologies themselves.

    (this difference, by the way, is why the Tea Party is such a PITA for typical Washington politics. Its ideologically driven, not vote/outcome driven)

    The United States has absorbed a huge number of immigrants, from all over the world, in a very peaceful manner. Societal integration for these people may take a generation or three to become truly complete, but it does happen reliably. The total population of the United States is third largest on the planet, the total surface area is fourth largest, and every economic measure you care to name is #1, often by fantastical margins.

    I say this not as a "rah rah America #1!", but to highlight that while I may strongly dislike many aspects of our society, it is a huge mistake to characterize America's Democracy as incompetent. The government is incredibly stable, and has survived events that have literally toppled other countries and regions when they are faced with similar challenges. The US may be facing (and has always faced) problems with income disparity, corporate influence, and concentrations of political power, but it also does so whilst leading an incredibly vibrant economy. Technology, trade, art... really any field you care to name, the United States is either #1 or in the circle composed of the "#1s".

    To a degree, the United States has been very lucky. North America is large, isolated, and absolutely packed with all manner of resources. Its colonization was done largely by the British, which brought a history of civil philosophical thought well conducive to a democracy. European ancestry and NA's climate means we have the high-energy crops and animal-borne antibodies to survive disease and grow plenty of good food with minimal effort - all conducive to rapid expansion and the birth of cities. Our position in the world is perfect for intercontinental trade whilst providing absolutely zero chance of ever fighting a battle on our own territory. You couldn't ask for a better starting point in a game of Civilization.

    Starting perks only get you so far though, and its not fair to call what America has built and continues to build only luck. You can get far with a good start, but you don't get to be a world leader in virtually any field you care to name based on luck. The US government might be indifferent, slow, callous, corrupt, and/or ruthless (depending on its mood), but it is not incompetent.

    --

    I'm much less familiar with internal Russian Federation machinations, but they aren't pretty. Russia's transition into democracy has stumbled along from drunken Yeltsin to the ruthless Putin, and neither has provided the leadership needed to reign in the handful of oligarchs that sized critical industries during the capitalization era out of the Soviet Union. Freedom of the press, independence of the courts, federal-state sovereignty... there aren't any real beacons of Russian Federation government that one can point to and say "well, at least X isn't totally broken".

    Despite the Soviet Union's industrial base and scientific prowess, Russia has still struggled to become anything more than a resource-exporting nation. Far too much of Russia's total economic power is derived from oil and gas exports, and that wealth is not funneled into improving domestic industrial production, or high-tech services. The "resource curse" is alive and well in modern Russia, and it is already biting them in the ass (oil prices and embargoes). Russia has the potential to become a real world leader, a mini-United States with its size, resources, and technology, but instead Russia would rather relive a Soviet Union highlight reel.

    Meanwhile, on the world stage, Putin has dragged Russia back from the brink of economic prosperity and trade with Europe, to the worst relations since the Cold War. Russia is so firmly cemented into playing the role of the Foil against the US that it seems incapable of playing any other role. If the US says up, Russia says down. If the US says "Yay government X", Russia says "Yay group Y - the sworn enemies of government X!". Russia will take any contrarian stance it can find, even if it must cut itself by doing so.


    The United States does need opposition - shit like Iraq 2.0 is a failing of not only our government, but of many other governments for getting dragged along into it. Even a united NATO standing against the United States probably wouldn't have stopped the invasion in the end, but it would at least highlight that rogue invasions of sovereign states is not a behavior to be tolerated in the 21st century.

    What nobody needs is a madman, and Putin's 2edgy4me realpolitik games are a product of an entirely different era, one not suited for a world that - in spite of everything - is more peaceful and progressive now than at any other point in history. In Ukraine, Putin made a wonderful deal: 30 years of diplomatic progress with Europe, for a sea port that they already owned. Great job


    TLDR: The US is neither incompetent nor a democracy, while Russia is incompetent and is also not a democracy.


  4. #24
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex View Post
      Spoiler:
    What nobody needs is a madman, and Putin's 2edgy4me realpolitik games are a product of an entirely different era, one not suited for a world that - in spite of everything - is more peaceful and progressive now than at any other point in history. In Ukraine, Putin made a wonderful deal: 30 years of diplomatic progress with Europe, for a sea port that they already owned. Great job


    TLDR: The US is neither incompetent nor a democracy, while Russia is incompetent and is also not a democracy.

    This is the serious forum, mate.

  5. #25
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    Democracy is not about saying whatever you want, democracy is about not saying what you don't want to.
    <my father saying this after 50 years of living in Soviet :democracy:>

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    I'd much prefer a democracy where one's vote is earned through service as opposed to birth...

    jesus christ so much this
    ingame: AntonioBanderas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer
    I fucking hate Steven Hawking. Smug little faggot with his stupid chariot

  7. #27
    Liare's Avatar
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    why are you necro'ing this old topic baddie ?
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  8. #28
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    science directorate best

    military republic close second

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    why are you necro'ing this old topic baddie ?
    It wasn't even a good necro.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Canadians are usually cooler.
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  10. #30
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    well, fuck me, didn't notice that was a necro

    i quoted this because i had the exact same talk with a friend the day before.
    I'm from Croatia and i the state of 'democracy' is laughable.
    3rd generation immigrants, dead people voting, it's a fucking mess
    I'm ashamed and honestly scared for my and my (future) childrens future, with the type of people that have a vote here, and the way voting system works, both here and in general (but i have personal experience here, so yeah...)

    apologies for the necro
    it was on the first page, though
    ingame: AntonioBanderas
    Detecting epic potential, expecting epic fail.
    Ah yes, the fork: The poor man's trident
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer
    I fucking hate Steven Hawking. Smug little faggot with his stupid chariot

  11. #31
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    Serious business forum re-open for business on forum

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by shoki View Post
    well, fuck me, didn't notice that was a necro

    i quoted this because i had the exact same talk with a friend the day before.
    I'm from Croatia and i the state of 'democracy' is laughable.
    3rd generation immigrants, dead people voting, it's a fucking mess
    I'm ashamed and honestly scared for my and my (future) childrens future, with the type of people that have a vote here, and the way voting system works, both here and in general (but i have personal experience here, so yeah...)

    apologies for the necro
    it was on the first page, though
    Well, given the thread title and recent developments (#Brexit, Trump/Hillary, EU refugee crisis, Turkey coup), it seems so on spot, it's about time it's revived again.

  13. #33
    Neoo Gabriel's Avatar
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    +1 for limited democracy with proven service terms to society, including military service, real charity service, being able to demonstrate argumentation and rational thought to peers, etc.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    +1 for limited democracy with proven service terms to society, including military service, real charity service, being able to demonstrate argumentation and rational thought to peers, etc.
    mate, with the state of things in Croatia, id go much lower

    IQ, basic history, basics of Croatian language and culture
    ingame: AntonioBanderas
    Detecting epic potential, expecting epic fail.
    Ah yes, the fork: The poor man's trident
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer
    I fucking hate Steven Hawking. Smug little faggot with his stupid chariot

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    +1 for limited democracy with proven service terms to society, including military service, real charity service, being able to demonstrate argumentation and rational thought to peers, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Sounds good in theory, but who's to define what does count as "service"? And how much of "it" grants you the privilege? What are about those that can't - for whatever reason - provide the service(s) required?

  16. #36
    Neoo Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    +1 for limited democracy with proven service terms to society, including military service, real charity service, being able to demonstrate argumentation and rational thought to peers, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Sounds good in theory, but who's to define what does count as "service"? And how much of "it" grants you the privilege? What are about those that can't - for whatever reason - provide the service(s) required?
    I don't know specifically, but I would venture 4-5 years of military service should be something.

    For something more specific: 10000 hours of public service.
    - working at discount rates/volunteering as a doctor or nurse to help/treat disadvantaged people.
    - volunteering to help/lead after school programs for teens in sports, maths, philosophy, engineering projects, etc.
    - volunteer work for special projects like weather emergencies, public works, etc.

    On the other hand, for a restrictive approach, perhaps temporarily removing citizenship voting privileges in certain situations:

    - during prison time for crimes sentenced.
    - during time when tax rate is negative (receives more benefits than pays out, excludes social security retirees). This would get rid of vote buying by expanding social benefits.
    - during time working on behalf of a foreign nation.

    Furthermore, restrict eligibility to public office to people that have a vested interest in the future, specifically, people that have children and took/take effort to personally raise them.

    I think this is a fair start. Anyone have anything to add or complain?

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    +1 for limited democracy with proven service terms to society, including military service, real charity service, being able to demonstrate argumentation and rational thought to peers, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Sounds good in theory, but who's to define what does count as "service"? And how much of "it" grants you the privilege? What are about those that can't - for whatever reason - provide the service(s) required?
    I think this is a fair start. Anyone have anything to add or complain?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Sounds good in theory, but who's to define what does count as "service"? And how much of "it" grants you the privilege? What are about those that can't - for whatever reason - provide the service(s) required?

  18. #38
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    obviously they are useless to the state

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