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Thread: Stupid Question, Gonna Ask it Anyway: Eliminate POS Shields?

  1. #81
    Batolemaeus's Avatar
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    That is seriously all you have? Handwaving away the holes people poke in your poorly thought out garbage?

    Get the fuck out.

  2. #82

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    Sentry duty

    Staring at the same thing for hours, watching for a couple seconds long gate animation to play, and getting shouted at by corpmates over TS, because the server closed the socket and you're disconnected but don't know it, because you haven't pressed a button on your eve client for hours, and the hostiles got by you while you were disconnected.

    And an 'intel network', is dozens or even hundreds of such players ? Because that's what you'd need to spot intruders, determine where they're going, and when they're far enough away. Need eyes on most gates.

    And even if you are paying newer players hundred mill an hour to do that, what good is that isk to them ? They can't divert much of their attention to a 2nd monitor and actually play EVE (or whatever), because they have to watch for that 2second long gate animation.

  3. #83
    Super Moderator Global Moderator QuackBot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aliventi View Post
    You both missed the point completely. The point was that if you want it you will put in the effort to make it happen. You will find a system that works for you and the group you play with. Whatever that system happens to be is up to you. There is lots of ways to make it happen. Be creative.
    What about it? Take anything and add -rathi to get a wing commander reference....why is this "best"? There are much better options available.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    all i know is, whenever i get a hole to anywhere in cfc space, within about 10 seconds of entering any system with someone in local, my CFC mates inevitably post something in a chat we share along the lines of "I see you DUCK" Then entire constellations of tengus and skiffs are magically all POSed when i turn up in a busy local. makes for riveting gameplay for all involved...
    This.

    CFC intel network is very fast and efficient. And botted in some cases so reporting your presence in local isn't even being done by an actually at the keyboard pilot.

    Tappin dat talk

  5. #85
    Batolemaeus's Avatar
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    They put in the effort to make that happen. They found a system that works for them and the group they play with. They are proactive and cooperate to deny you easy kills.

    Perhaps you should instead use the no-local w-space utopia to get kills?

  6. #86
    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batolemaeus View Post
    They put in the effort to make that happen. They found a system that works for them and the group they play with. They are proactive and cooperate to deny you easy kills.

    Perhaps you should instead use the no-local w-space utopia to get kills?
    Why should someone ratting in 0.0 be 100% safe, even with a good network? It's supposed to be dangerous space. It's really only dangerous to stupid people ATM.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batolemaeus View Post
    They put in the effort to make that happen. They found a system that works for them and the group they play with. They are proactive and cooperate to deny you easy kills.

    Perhaps you should instead use the no-local w-space utopia to get kills?
    I think point there might be that there's nothing you do about that mechanically to evade detection. If you're going to relegate PVE death to what amounts to an idiot tax (which it is, even without intel networks), then you need a different avenue for risk and harassment.

    Bottom line is, passive intel shouldn't tell you much. Active intel should require more effort/cost and possibly should expose you more, i.e. not some poor schmuck cloaked on a gate 24/7. If you want gatewatching to be a thing, make it a deployable with a manageable amount of EHP and a short reinforcement timer. (Which I see someone already mentioned).

  8. #88

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    I dont see whats wrong with that. Ratter kills happen all the time and its a collaborative effort to keep their space safe. Does emergent gameplay mean you get to gank everything you want now?

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by frazz0402 View Post
    I dont see whats wrong with that. Ratter kills happen all the time and its a collaborative effort to keep their space safe. Does emergent gameplay mean you get to gank everything you want now?
    The number of losses per ratter-hour is actually quite low (in the vicinity of .05), and are usually the result of laziness or stupidity on the part of the loser rather than any particular skill from the hunter.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aliventi View Post
    You both missed the point completely. The point was that if you want it you will put in the effort to make it happen. You will find a system that works for you and the group you play with. Whatever that system happens to be is up to you. There is lots of ways to make it happen. Be creative.
    Quote Originally Posted by Batolemaeus View Post
    That is seriously all you have? Handwaving away the holes people poke in your poorly thought out garbage?

    Get the fuck out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Batolemaeus View Post
    They put in the effort to make that happen. They found a system that works for them and the group they play with. They are proactive and cooperate to deny you easy kills.

    Perhaps you should instead use the no-local w-space utopia to get kills?
    It's funny how you use the same argument after neg-repping me and saying it's a bad argument...

    The CFC and most ratting groups already use an intel network to deny kills. It would still work just as well if there was no local with very minor changes.
    Last edited by Aliventi; December 28 2014 at 06:48:49 PM.

  11. #91
    Batolemaeus's Avatar
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    Do you have some mental deficiency that makes you unable to recognize someone making fun of you? I even made it extra easy by quoting your nonsensical argument word for word and flipping it on its head.

    You are advocating breaking functionality in ways that make things more tedious without providing anything interesting back. Intentionally regressing gameplay while mumbling something about "players will be creative" is utterly retarded. Players will choose the tedious and safe route every time, the point is to design something where the optimal route isn't balanced by tedium or RSI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    Why should someone ratting in 0.0 be 100% safe, even with a good network? It's supposed to be dangerous space. It's really only dangerous to stupid people ATM.
    Why shouldn't it be possible to lock down a few systems with superior force or with superior intel to the point that you can move around with a reasonable expectation of safety?

    What kind of nullsec do we want to have in Eve? Some kind of team deathmatch with limited intel or a game of empires with core regions, borders and buffer zones? Keep in mind that the kind of industrial development we'd need in 0.0 to get rid of jumpfreighters and the reliance on jita requires a reasonable way to police systems well enough that you can move pinatas around without them getting shot from under your nose even with a defense fleet.

    This thread so far has only been a thinly veiled attempt to straight up murder any kind of space settling and replace intel gathering with tedious busywork with alts and more alts. That's not the kind of nullsec I want to play in.
    Last edited by Batolemaeus; December 28 2014 at 07:23:54 PM.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batolemaeus View Post
    Do you have some mental deficiency that makes you unable to recognize someone making fun of you? I even made it extra easy by quoting your nonsensical argument word for word and flipping it on its head.

    You are advocating breaking functionality in ways that make things more tedious without providing anything interesting back. Intentionally regressing gameplay while mumbling something about "players will be creative" is utterly retarded. Players will choose the tedious and safe route every time, the point is to design something where the optimal route isn't balanced by tedium or RSI.
    The objective to ensure that the benefit is proportional to the effort put in. Like it or not tedium is part of Eve. You don't magically make a billion isk ratting by shooting a single rat and calling it a day, you don't mine a titan worth of minerals in a single cycle of your mining laser, you don't win a SOV fight by killing one of the hundreds of ships on the field. Eve is tedium. You do the same thing over and over and over. Only by doing things over and over and over will you achieve what you want. You rat for hours to make that billion isk, you mine for hours and hours to get the minerals to build the titan, you kill hundreds of ships to win that SOV fight. There is not a single thing in Eve that isn't balanced by tedium. You can be off in fairy land pretending that Eve will magically be a tedium free game. The rest of us will recognize Eve for what it is and work with it.

  13. #93

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    Tedium shouldn't be a requirement, only a limiting factor to extremes.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syphonix_ View Post
    Tedium shouldn't be a requirement, only a limiting factor to extremes.
    Instant, free, perfect intel is an extreme.

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aliventi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Syphonix_ View Post
    Tedium shouldn't be a requirement, only a limiting factor to extremes.
    Instant, free, perfect intel is an extreme.
    Ofcourse it is, it also has nothing to do with tedium. Indeed its quite the opposite. But is fixing it with another extreme the way you want to go about it?

    There's enough tedium in jumping several regions to find a 'fight'. There's also enough tedium in ratting, mining, etc itself.
    Both are equally retarded. If you want to have more fights, then those fundamental interactions need to change. Local is just something thats easy to blame if you're on the assault team.

  16. #96

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    There is time consuming, and there is bot-unworthy tedium.

    Eve, being a MMO, is pretty much required to be a huge time sink. However, just because it have to consume a lot of time does not mean we should accept it being boring.

    Take any game of "skill". To get anywhere with those games takes hundreds if now thousands of hours of effort and practice, sometimes pushed to biological limits to the point of repetitive stress wrist injuries (or simply maximum time and mental energy available) over time frame of years, however they are not simply tedious.

    Good games constantly generate novelty out of new combination of stimulus that require different responses. This should be what game design be about, and not "spend time or not spend time."

  17. #97
    Super Moderator Global Moderator QuackBot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batolemaeus View Post

    Why shouldn't it be possible to lock down a few systems with superior force or with superior intel to the point that you can move around with a reasonable expectation of safety?

    What kind of nullsec do we want to have in Eve? Some kind of team deathmatch with limited intel or a game of empires with core regions, borders and buffer zones? Keep in mind that the kind of industrial development we'd need in 0.0 to get rid of jumpfreighters and the reliance on jita requires a reasonable way to police systems well enough that you can move pinatas around without them getting shot from under your nose even with a defense fleet.

    This thread so far has only been a thinly veiled attempt to straight up murder any kind of space settling and replace intel gathering with tedious busywork with alts and more alts. That's not the kind of nullsec I want to play in.
    What does it do.

  18. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by KathDougans View Post
    Sentry duty

    Staring at the same thing for hours, watching for a couple seconds long gate animation to play, and getting shouted at by corpmates over TS, because the server closed the socket and you're disconnected but don't know it, because you haven't pressed a button on your eve client for hours, and the hostiles got by you while you were disconnected.

    And an 'intel network', is dozens or even hundreds of such players ? Because that's what you'd need to spot intruders, determine where they're going, and when they're far enough away. Need eyes on most gates.

    And even if you are paying newer players hundred mill an hour to do that, what good is that isk to them ? They can't divert much of their attention to a 2nd monitor and actually play EVE (or whatever), because they have to watch for that 2second long gate animation.
    To be fair, there are simple pieces of softwares, which watches your monitor (and are not in violation of the EULA) and makes a noice everytime a neutral or hostile enters local. These could also cover your overview, when sitting on a gate.

    If people get basic stuff like that, they can do whatever on their other screens. I've been using that a lot when scouting.
    Last edited by TheHenni; December 29 2014 at 11:00:30 AM.
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  19. #99

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    3rd party tools like that are great, but this is the exact thing that should be in the actual game (at least if you're being active in the system).
    Something as simple as a notification of which gate gets activated, like the ESS but without the playername, would already be a subtle way to approach removing local. It would leave room for interaction on the defenders part, d-scanning when in range for example. Finding out if it was a hostile or a friendly that just came in, friendlies that come in could type a 'thing' in local chat to notify the locals. But it still leaves too high of a gap between assaulter and defender when it comes to broken mechanics still.

    Now while local is perfect instant intel, so is anoms being 100% warpto the second you enter a system. Revert this and you close that gap to possibly something reasonable, while giving wormholers a distinct advantage if the null residents are too lazy to scan their system before jewing.
    The only thing missing would be a ESS type deployable that gives the same warning like a gate does. Meanwhile leave recons to be undetectable by said deployable so they can kill it before people stream in (Disable their dscan immunity or you need constant vision again), would leave a certain window for things to get interesting. Also rewards those who are actively trying to counter getting buttraped

    Let d-scan show what ship types are around, not the specific ship. IE frigate, cruiser, battlecruiser, ... No T2/T3 distiction. Also remove ship names, its only purpose is risk aversion

    Get rid of color coded standings while we're at it, it makes people bloodthirsty and risk averse at the same time. Also crushes individuality. People can use 3rd party tools for that anyway, but it shouldn't be instant intel as is. Would see a lot less blobbing aswell due to target selection speed & the following drama

    Also make stealth ships show up on D-scan/probes, just dont give a warpto on them (in combination with the d-scan changes)


    Sure I'm missing loads of stuff, but you probably get the point

    'FuckPerfectInstaIntel2015'
    Last edited by Syphonix_; December 29 2014 at 04:41:42 PM.

  20. #100

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    Too much to comment on, but just a quick note:

    Quote Originally Posted by Syphonix_ View Post
    *snip*
    Get rid of color coded standings while we're at it, it makes people bloodthirsty and risk averse at the same time. Also crushes individuality. People can use 3rd party tools for that anyway, but it shouldn't be instant intel as is. Would see a lot less blobbing aswell due to target selection speed & the following drama
    *snip*
    Iirc, this wasn't in the game from the start but was implemented because a group of players basically created their own system for this, which (again - iirc) rerouted the client querying char portraits to their own portraitserver showing standings.
    From memory, while tending a hangover - CCP basically implemented this as people were asking for it and said group created their own version which CCP at the time was unwilling / unable to do something about.
    Seems not too far fetched to think that as long as a list of in-game names is'visible', people will find a way to add standings to that list.
    Last edited by Rutger Centemus; January 1 2015 at 02:22:05 PM. Reason: hangover, gotta love whiskynight

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