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  1. #48181
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-de...e-the-midterms

    The Democrats Need to Get Much Tougher on These Trump Scandals or They Will Lose the Midterms
    By trying a ‘clever’ midterm strategy that focuses on policy not scandal, the Democrats are failing to hold this White House to account. It will cost them the election.
    Personally I think he's wrong.

    The reason why Dems could still lose is they're absolutely terrible at getting people enthused. There would be nothing wrong with focusing on whats wrong with the country, if Democrats actually had the ability to get people riled up. A bunch of stale, anodyne Hillary-bot style statements on how the economy 'needs to work for everyone' wont get people fired up
    I think he's wrong too.

    That being said, Meullers investigation must be allowed to end naturally, or this will end up causing extreme long term damage to this country, in my opinion.
    meh

  2. #48182
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    http://www.startribune.com/showing-r...can/483084291/

    Showing 'respect' won't help Democrats win over whites who vote Republican
    Not when there's a major effort to show folks that liberal elitists look down on them. So Democrats should just advocate what they believe in and remind people the GOP is screwing them over.

    By Paul Waldman Special to the Washington Post


    In the endless search for the magic key that Democrats can use to unlock the hearts of white people who vote Republican, the hot new candidate is “respect.”

    If only they cast off their snooty liberal elitism and show respect to people who voted for Donald Trump, Democrats can win them over and take back Congress and the White House.

    This belief, widespread though it may be (see D.J. Tice column, May 20), is stunningly naive. It ignores decades of history and everything about our current political environment. There’s almost nothing more foolish Democrats could do than follow that advice.

    I’m not saying that the desire for respect isn’t real. As a voter says in “The Great Revolt,” a new book by conservative journalist Salena Zito and Republican operative Brad Todd, “One of the things I really don’t get about the Democratic Party or the news media is the lack of respect they give to people who work hard all of their lives to get themselves out of the hole.”

    Nor am I saying there aren’t some liberals who express elitist ideas, because there are.

    But the mistake is to ignore where the belief in Democratic disrespect actually comes from and to assume that Democrats have it in their power to banish it.

    It doesn’t come from the policies advocated by the Democratic Party, and it doesn’t come from the things Democratic politicians say. It comes from an entire industry devoted to convincing white people that liberal elitists look down on them.

    The right has a gigantic media apparatus plus a political party whose leaders all understand that that idea is key to their political project and so join in the chorus at every opportunity.

    Tune in to Fox News or conservative talk radio for a week. Again and again you’re told stories of some excess of campus political correctness, some liberal celebrity who said something crude about rednecks or some Democratic politician who displayed a lack of knowledge of a conservative cultural marker. The message is pounded home: They hate you and everything you stand for.

    This machine can determine how conservatives — including those Trump voters — view what happens on a day-to-day basis in the political world, including efforts by Democrats to reach out to them.

    Take, for instance, Barack Obama. Can you think of another president who spent more time reaching out to the other side and showing respect for them? You might or might not like his policies, but nobody tried harder to be respectful than Obama.

    Let’s take, as just one example, the speech he gave about race during the 2008 campaign. Here’s one small part:

    “Most working- and middle-class white Americans don’t feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. Their experience is the immigrant experience — as far as they’re concerned, no one’s handed them anything, they’ve built it from scratch. They’ve worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor.”

    That is extremely respectful. But it’s not what Republicans think of when they think of Obama. “I despise Barack Obama. I think primarily because I don’t think he thinks very much of people like me,” one Republican told the Washington Post’s Dan Balz. “His comment, the whole thing, it’s been worn out to death, that clinging to God and guns, God and guns and afraid of people who don’t look like them, blah, blah, blah. Just quit talking down to me.”

    Ah yes, the “clinging to guns and religion” quote. One thing Obama said in 2008, taken out of context and repeated a million times until it was all any Republican voter needed to know about his entire presidency. But if you look at what Obama actually said, you’ll see that it’s different from the way it has been characterized.

    He was asked how Democrats could appeal to working-class whites in the Rust Belt, and he replied that people have watched their communities struggle for decades, through Republican and Democratic presidencies alike, so they wind up forming their political identities and channeling their frustrations through noneconomic issues. Which few would actually dispute, but such controversies are rarely created out of what a Democratic politician actually said. They flow from whether it can be twisted to make them look disrespectful.

    The same is true of Hillary Clinton. At a town-hall meeting in March 2016, she was talking about how to revitalize communities that had been dependent on coal but had been devastated by a loss of jobs driven mostly by automation and the fracking boom that made natural gas cheaper than coal. Here’s what she said:

    “And we’re going to make it clear that we don’t want to forget those people. Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to turn on our lights and power our factories. Now we’ve got to move away from coal and all the other fossil fuels, but I don’t want to move away from the people who did the best they could to produce energy that we relied on.”

    Wow, that’s pretty respectful! And yet because she also acknowledged that all those millions of coal jobs aren’t coming back, but said it in a way she would surely have liked to rephrase — “we’re going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business” — the only thing anyone remembers is that one half-sentence, which was immediately turned into “Hillary hates coal miners!”

    We see this again and again: Democrats bend over backward to show conservative white voters respect, only to see some remark taken out of context. And then pundits demand, “Why aren’t you showing those whites more respect?”

    So when we say that, what exactly are we asking Democrats to do? It can only be one of two things. Either Democrats are supposed to abandon their values and change their policies, despite the fact that many of those policies provide enormous help to the very people who say Democrats look down on them, or they’re supposed to take symbolic steps to demonstrate their respect, which always fail anyway. How many times have we seen Democrats try to show respect by going to a NASCAR event or on a hunting trip, only to be mocked for their insincerity?

    In the world Republicans have constructed, a Democrat who wants to give you health care and a higher wage is disrespectful, while a Republican who opposes those things but engages in a vigorous round of campaign race-baiting is respectful.

    So what are Democrats to do? Simple: Remember that white Republicans are not going to vote for you anyway, and their votes are no more valuable or virtuous than the votes of any other American. Advocate for what you believe in, and explain why it actually helps people.

    Finally — and this is critical — never stop telling voters how Republicans are screwing them over. The two successful Democratic presidents of recent years were both called liberal elitists, and they countered by relentlessly hammering the GOP over its advocacy for the wealthy. And it worked.
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...

  3. #48183
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    http://www.startribune.com/showing-r...can/483084291/

    Showing 'respect' won't help Democrats win over whites who vote Republican
    Not when there's a major effort to show folks that liberal elitists look down on them. So Democrats should just advocate what they believe in and remind people the GOP is screwing them over.

    By Paul Waldman Special to the Washington Post


    In the endless search for the magic key that Democrats can use to unlock the hearts of white people who vote Republican, the hot new candidate is “respect.”

    If only they cast off their snooty liberal elitism and show respect to people who voted for Donald Trump, Democrats can win them over and take back Congress and the White House.

    This belief, widespread though it may be (see D.J. Tice column, May 20), is stunningly naive. It ignores decades of history and everything about our current political environment. There’s almost nothing more foolish Democrats could do than follow that advice.

    I’m not saying that the desire for respect isn’t real. As a voter says in “The Great Revolt,” a new book by conservative journalist Salena Zito and Republican operative Brad Todd, “One of the things I really don’t get about the Democratic Party or the news media is the lack of respect they give to people who work hard all of their lives to get themselves out of the hole.”

    Nor am I saying there aren’t some liberals who express elitist ideas, because there are.

    But the mistake is to ignore where the belief in Democratic disrespect actually comes from and to assume that Democrats have it in their power to banish it.

    It doesn’t come from the policies advocated by the Democratic Party, and it doesn’t come from the things Democratic politicians say. It comes from an entire industry devoted to convincing white people that liberal elitists look down on them.

    The right has a gigantic media apparatus plus a political party whose leaders all understand that that idea is key to their political project and so join in the chorus at every opportunity.

    Tune in to Fox News or conservative talk radio for a week. Again and again you’re told stories of some excess of campus political correctness, some liberal celebrity who said something crude about rednecks or some Democratic politician who displayed a lack of knowledge of a conservative cultural marker. The message is pounded home: They hate you and everything you stand for.

    This machine can determine how conservatives — including those Trump voters — view what happens on a day-to-day basis in the political world, including efforts by Democrats to reach out to them.

    Take, for instance, Barack Obama. Can you think of another president who spent more time reaching out to the other side and showing respect for them? You might or might not like his policies, but nobody tried harder to be respectful than Obama.

    Let’s take, as just one example, the speech he gave about race during the 2008 campaign. Here’s one small part:

    “Most working- and middle-class white Americans don’t feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. Their experience is the immigrant experience — as far as they’re concerned, no one’s handed them anything, they’ve built it from scratch. They’ve worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor.”

    That is extremely respectful. But it’s not what Republicans think of when they think of Obama. “I despise Barack Obama. I think primarily because I don’t think he thinks very much of people like me,” one Republican told the Washington Post’s Dan Balz. “His comment, the whole thing, it’s been worn out to death, that clinging to God and guns, God and guns and afraid of people who don’t look like them, blah, blah, blah. Just quit talking down to me.”

    Ah yes, the “clinging to guns and religion” quote. One thing Obama said in 2008, taken out of context and repeated a million times until it was all any Republican voter needed to know about his entire presidency. But if you look at what Obama actually said, you’ll see that it’s different from the way it has been characterized.

    He was asked how Democrats could appeal to working-class whites in the Rust Belt, and he replied that people have watched their communities struggle for decades, through Republican and Democratic presidencies alike, so they wind up forming their political identities and channeling their frustrations through noneconomic issues. Which few would actually dispute, but such controversies are rarely created out of what a Democratic politician actually said. They flow from whether it can be twisted to make them look disrespectful.

    The same is true of Hillary Clinton. At a town-hall meeting in March 2016, she was talking about how to revitalize communities that had been dependent on coal but had been devastated by a loss of jobs driven mostly by automation and the fracking boom that made natural gas cheaper than coal. Here’s what she said:

    “And we’re going to make it clear that we don’t want to forget those people. Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to turn on our lights and power our factories. Now we’ve got to move away from coal and all the other fossil fuels, but I don’t want to move away from the people who did the best they could to produce energy that we relied on.”

    Wow, that’s pretty respectful! And yet because she also acknowledged that all those millions of coal jobs aren’t coming back, but said it in a way she would surely have liked to rephrase — “we’re going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business” — the only thing anyone remembers is that one half-sentence, which was immediately turned into “Hillary hates coal miners!”

    We see this again and again: Democrats bend over backward to show conservative white voters respect, only to see some remark taken out of context. And then pundits demand, “Why aren’t you showing those whites more respect?”

    So when we say that, what exactly are we asking Democrats to do? It can only be one of two things. Either Democrats are supposed to abandon their values and change their policies, despite the fact that many of those policies provide enormous help to the very people who say Democrats look down on them, or they’re supposed to take symbolic steps to demonstrate their respect, which always fail anyway. How many times have we seen Democrats try to show respect by going to a NASCAR event or on a hunting trip, only to be mocked for their insincerity?

    In the world Republicans have constructed, a Democrat who wants to give you health care and a higher wage is disrespectful, while a Republican who opposes those things but engages in a vigorous round of campaign race-baiting is respectful.

    So what are Democrats to do? Simple: Remember that white Republicans are not going to vote for you anyway, and their votes are no more valuable or virtuous than the votes of any other American. Advocate for what you believe in, and explain why it actually helps people.

    Finally — and this is critical — never stop telling voters how Republicans are screwing them over. The two successful Democratic presidents of recent years were both called liberal elitists, and they countered by relentlessly hammering the GOP over its advocacy for the wealthy. And it worked.
    You never negotiate with terrorists.
    meh

  4. #48184

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    Hey look, some actual news:

    The Princes, the President, and the Fortune Seekers.

    tl;dr: run of the mill corruption on a huge scale that Trump may have a hard time claiming ignorance of.

    Secretary Tillerson may have been fired in part at the behest of the UAE.

    And a bunch of other juicy shit.

    And the documents that the report is partially based on, which include more juicy shit:

    https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...Redacted2.html
    Totally not Victoria Stecker forgetting his password and not having access to his work email.

  5. #48185
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    What the fuck? For over a year now it was "Democrats lost because of focusing on how bad Trump is ant not on real policies". And now suddenly its "oh no, they mustn't focus on policies, they must relentless spend their energy on attacking Teflon Don!". Who is trolling who here? Tovarisch?

  6. #48186

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    Quote Originally Posted by dzajic View Post
    What the fuck? For over a year now it was "Democrats lost because of focusing on how bad Trump is ant not on real policies". And now suddenly its "oh no, they mustn't focus on policies, they must relentless spend their energy on attacking Teflon Don!". Who is trolling who here? Tovarisch?
    What the author is actually saying is that Dems can't win over those Republican voters who (claim to) feel belittled by them even if they want to, so it's better not to try too hard - especially if it's at the expense of whatever the Democrats are supposed to stand for these days. Better to double down on promoting their own policies while loudly proclaiming how the Republicans (not just Trump) are actually f'king voters.You don't even have to click the link to read the article.

  7. #48187
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancehot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dzajic View Post
    What the fuck? For over a year now it was "Democrats lost because of focusing on how bad Trump is ant not on real policies". And now suddenly its "oh no, they mustn't focus on policies, they must relentless spend their energy on attacking Teflon Don!". Who is trolling who here? Tovarisch?
    What the author is actually saying is that Dems can't win over those Republican voters who (claim to) feel belittled by them even if they want to, so it's better not to try too hard - especially if it's at the expense of whatever the Democrats are supposed to stand for these days. Better to double down on promoting their own policies while loudly proclaiming how the Republicans (not just Trump) are actually f'king voters.You don't even have to click the link to read the article.
    Yeah, but what do the coal farmers from Ohio think?

  8. #48188

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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-de...e-the-midterms

    The Democrats Need to Get Much Tougher on These Trump Scandals or They Will Lose the Midterms
    By trying a ‘clever’ midterm strategy that focuses on policy not scandal, the Democrats are failing to hold this White House to account. It will cost them the election.
    Personally I think he's wrong.

    The reason why Dems could still lose is they're absolutely terrible at getting people enthused.
    That's the problem right there. While there's a lot things people should and need to be enthused about, polictics shouldn't be one of it. It should rather be a rational process.

    Not saying you're wrong, unfortunately.

  9. #48189
    Liare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-de...e-the-midterms

    The Democrats Need to Get Much Tougher on These Trump Scandals or They Will Lose the Midterms
    By trying a ‘clever’ midterm strategy that focuses on policy not scandal, the Democrats are failing to hold this White House to account. It will cost them the election.
    Personally I think he's wrong.

    The reason why Dems could still lose is they're absolutely terrible at getting people enthused.
    That's the problem right there. While there's a lot things people should and need to be enthused about, polictics shouldn't be one of it. It should rather be a rational process.

    Not saying you're wrong, unfortunately.
    this is how you get sub-50% vote rates.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  10. #48190
    Keckers's Avatar
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    And how the capitalists win.

    Still baffles me that Joe Public thinks Tesco making huge profits is good in a time of austerity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  11. #48191

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    That's the problem with the hope-based politics that the Democrats can run when they are at their best. That type of campaign is easily derailed by tarnished candidates and a lack of vision.

    By comparison fear-based campaigns can tolerate a ridiculously low quality candidate with a nonesense message and still have the base turn-out in droves, as long as the shitty candidate promise to battle the thing they fear.

    Trump gives the Democrats the option to do both, justifiably and easily. He's a walking-talking-left-wing-recruitment machine.

  12. #48192
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    That's the problem with the hope-based politics that the Democrats can run when they are at their best. That type of campaign is easily derailed by tarnished candidates and a lack of vision.

    By comparison fear-based campaigns can tolerate a ridiculously low quality candidate with a nonesense message and still have the base turn-out in droves, as long as the shitty candidate promise to battle the thing they fear.

    Trump gives the Democrats the option to do both, justifiably and easily. He's a walking-talking-left-wing-recruitment machine.
    Yes. It's also proven that being the biggest, most obstructionist assholes possible wins elections, so D should just do that. The Republicans and Trump proved this, so they shouldn't act upset when it ruins their attempt at power.
    meh

  13. #48193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    That's the problem with the hope-based politics that the Democrats can run when they are at their best. That type of campaign is easily derailed by tarnished candidates and a lack of vision.
    Maybe run someone who isn't tarnished? I think Dems and their supporters consistently underestimate how bad a candidate Hillary Clinton was and is.

    It's not necessarily the message, but the messenger.

    By comparison fear-based campaigns can tolerate a ridiculously low quality candidate with a nonesense message and still have the base turn-out in droves, as long as the shitty candidate promise to battle the thing they fear.
    True enough, but while negativity and fear does indeed sell, I'd also say that a positive message being made by a positive candidate sells better. I.e. Obama as a very recent example. His campaigns were generally very positive and very, very effective.

    Trump gives the Democrats the option to do both, justifiably and easily. He's a walking-talking-left-wing-recruitment machine.
    Aye, also true. But the Dems need to play it right. So far I don't think they're doing a good or consistent job of that.

    I think what you may find is that the great unwashed masses in the middle and weakly left and weakly right really don't like Trump that much.

    Then they turn on CNN and watch for a bit and say to themselves "fuck, he can't be that bad, and man some of this shit is seriously petty/tin foil hat" and they wind up more for Trump than they were before they turned CNN on.

    It also doesn't help Dems that alot of shit is going generally pretty well right now, economically, and more. The tax cut didn't "insert hyperbole of fear here" as Dems predicted, the economy is cruising along, we're not at War with either Best Korea of Iran, China just reportedly gave up some big trade concessions, etc, etc, etc.

    I think a positive message will sell to Dems and to Independents and even some righties given Trump being Trump.

    The Mid-terms are going to be VERY interesting this time round. It could be anything from a massive Blue Wave to a real shitshow for Dems.


  14. #48194

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    The tax cuts have barely been in effect for five minutes.

  15. #48195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-de...e-the-midterms

    The Democrats Need to Get Much Tougher on These Trump Scandals or They Will Lose the Midterms
    By trying a ‘clever’ midterm strategy that focuses on policy not scandal, the Democrats are failing to hold this White House to account. It will cost them the election.
    Personally I think he's wrong.

    The reason why Dems could still lose is they're absolutely terrible at getting people enthused.
    That's the problem right there. While there's a lot things people should and need to be enthused about, polictics shouldn't be one of it. It should rather be a rational process.

    Not saying you're wrong, unfortunately.
    We're 20 years (or 200 years) past that point. Things are too polarized for anything but emotional appeal.

    Also a FPTP presidential republic is always going to be us vs. them. It's obvious that parliamentary republics without FPTP are better for politics if you want actual debate and choices, but it'll never happen in the US

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    That's the problem with the hope-based politics that the Democrats can run when they are at their best. That type of campaign is easily derailed by tarnished candidates and a lack of vision.
    "when they go low, we go high" worked with the Obamas because of the very clean public image. The Clintons didnt have that.

  16. #48196
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    it'll only be solved if/when we finally kill off conservatives en-masse tbqh

  17. #48197
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    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    it'll only be solved if/when we finally kill off conservatives en-masse tbqh
    Like I said, had you been raised here in the U.S., you'd be #1 as a potential mass-shooter.

    You literally check every box.

    tbqh


  18. #48198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    it'll only be solved if/when we finally kill off conservatives en-masse tbqh
    Like I said, had you been raised here in the U.S., you'd be #1 as a potential mass-shooter.

    You literally check every box.

    tbqh
    Sorry I wasn't raised in a third world shithole populated by religious retards, racists and rednecks... /chuckle

  19. #48199
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    it'll only be solved if/when we finally kill off conservatives en-masse tbqh
    Like I said, had you been raised here in the U.S., you'd be #1 as a potential mass-shooter.

    You literally check every box.

    tbqh
    Sorry I wasn't raised in a third world shithole populated by religious retards, racists and rednecks... /chuckle
    Ok Donald Trump, thanks for the feedback.


  20. #48200
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    Ahhh its that time of the week again.


    And still No mod in sight.

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    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

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