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Thread: US Politics Thread

  1. #57501
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Giving billionaires a tax cut is bad value for money as well. I'm not sure why you think value for money is a metric conservatives bother with.
    I'm not sure why you think I give a rats arse about what the conservative care about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  2. #57502
    Keckers's Avatar
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    I thought you were trying to rationalise GOP thinking and policy strategy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  3. #57503

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    The last couple of pages have been more of an analysis of the Democratic parties rational objection to extending the border wall.

  4. #57504
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    It's easy to see why people oppose stupid shit. More interesting to see why people insist on supporting stupid shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  5. #57505
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    I thought you were trying to rationalise GOP thinking and policy strategy.
    There's nothing rational about GOP thinking and policy strategy. I was providing a rational counter argument to the wall. Because it is pointless to engage conservatives/GOP/Trump ideas on an irrational level. They'll just drag you into the gutter with them and beat you there on experience.

    The best you can do is to rationally point out that their thinking and policies don't make a lick of sense, and provide arguments for that statement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  6. #57506

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    It's easy to see why people oppose stupid shit. More interesting to see why people insist on supporting stupid shit.
    Really? Its the same old song and dance.

    We all have our primary emotional triggers. For around 20%-30% of people it's fear.

    Fear-driven personalities are easy to manipulate with the threat of an external "other". Emotional-triggered decisions are protected against reason via self-deceptive internal rationalisation.

  7. #57507
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    It's easy to see why people oppose stupid shit. More interesting to see why people insist on supporting stupid shit.
    Really? Its the same old song and dance.

    We all have our primary emotional triggers. For around 20%-30% of people it's fear.

    Fear-driven personalities are easy to manipulate with the threat of an external "other". Emotional-triggered decisions are protected against reason via self-deceptive internal rationalisation.
    OK, fine. And now what? Now we 'know' that. What do we do about it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  8. #57508
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    Decentralise democracy so they can't derail the livelihood of millions with a single vote?
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  9. #57509
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smarnca View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    Oh really? There are atleast two countries in the world right now with walls that work very well




    There's also the zone between best and worst Korea

    Another super effective one from the recent history was the one that separated the oppressive commie regime from the free world
    Ah yes, happy peaceful Israel, what a perfect example to emulate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  10. #57510
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    i am sure Smarnca imagines it with towers for the snipers who randomly shoot mexicans on the other side of the wall for.. i dunno, existing ?
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  11. #57511

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    Topical
    Quote Originally Posted by Amy patrick : WalL Engineer
    From Amy Patrick, an engineer, Wall Expert.

    I’m a licensed structural and civil engineer with a MS in structural engineering from the top program in the nation and over a decade of experience on high-performance projects...

    ...and particularly of cleaning up design disasters where the factors weren’t properly accounted for, and I’m an adjunct professor of structural analysis and design at UH-Downtown.

    I have previously been deposed as an expert witness in matters regarding proper construction of walls and the various factors associated therein, and my testimony has passed Daubert....

    Am I a wall expert? I am. I am literally a court-accepted expert on walls....

    Structurally and civil engineering-wise, the border wall is not a feasible project. Trump did not hire engineers to design the thing. He solicited bids from contractors, not engineers....

    This means it’s not been designed by professionals. It’s a disaster of numerous types waiting to happen.

    What disasters?...
    Off the top of my head...
    1) It will mess with our ability to drain land in flash flooding. Anything impeding the ability of water to get where it needs to go (doesn’t matter if there are holes in the wall or whatever) is going to dramatically increase the risk of flooding...
    2) Messes with all kind of stuff ecologically. For all other projects, we have to do an Environmental Site Assessment, which is arduous. They’re either planning to circumvent all this,...
    ...or they haven’t accounted for it yet, because that’s part of the design process, and this thing hasn’t been designed.
    3) The prototypes they came up with are nearly impossible to build or don’t actually do the job. This article explains more:


    According to a U.S. Government Accountability Office report, the border wall prototypes are flawed and the Department of Homeland Security has likely underestimated project costs.

    And so on....
    The estimates provided for the cost are arrived at unreasonably. You can look for yourself at the two-year-old estimate that you see everyone citing.

    It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign...

    It’s going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trump’s lifetime....

    I’m a structural forensicist, which means I’m called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong....

    When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just *obliterated*....

    And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there aren’t that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project a large quotient of us are immigrants, and besides, we can’t afford to bid on jobs that are this political. We’re small firms, and we’re already busy, and we don’t gamble our reputations on political footballs....

    So you’d end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and it’d generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me....

    And it won’t be effective. I could, right now, purchase a 32 foot extension ladder and weld a cheap custom saddle for the top of the proposed wall so that I can get over it...

    I don’t know who they talked to about the wall design and its efficacy, but it sure as heck wasn’t anybody with any engineering imagination.

    Another thing: we are not far from the day where inexpensive drones will be able to pick up and carry someone. This will happen in the next ten years, and it’s folly to think that the coyotes who ferry people over the border won’t purchase or create them.

    They’re low enough, quiet enough, and small enough to quickly zip people over any wall we could build undetected with our current monitoring setup.

    Let’s have border security, by all means, but let’s be smart about it. It’s not effective. It’s NOT cheap. The returns will be diminishing as technology advances, too. This is a ridiculous idea that will never be successfully executed and, would be a monumental waste of money. <>
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...321077761.html

    sorry for the potato/meester formatting.
    Last edited by Itiken; January 11 2019 at 12:46:51 PM.
    Please don't teach me what to do with my pc.

  12. #57512
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    i am sure Trump imagines it with towers for the snipers who randomly shoot mexicans on the other side of the wall for.. i dunno, existing ?
    fyp

    mate we are trying to reverse-psychology el trumpino here

    why so srs?

  13. #57513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itiken View Post
    Topical
    Quote Originally Posted by Amy patrick : WalL Engineer
    From Amy Patrick, an engineer, Wall Expert.

    I’m a licensed structural and civil engineer with a MS in structural engineering from the top program in the nation and over a decade of experience on high-performance projects...
    ...and particularly of cleaning up design disasters where the factors weren’t properly accounted for, and I’m an adjunct professor of structural analysis and design at UH-Downtown.
    I have previously been deposed as an expert witness in matters regarding proper construction of walls and the various factors associated therein, and my testimony has passed Daubert....
    Am I a wall expert? I am. I am literally a court-accepted expert on walls....
    Structurally and civil engineering-wise, the border wall is not a feasible project. Trump did not hire engineers to design the thing. He solicited bids from contractors, not engineers....
    This means it’s not been designed by professionals. It’s a disaster of numerous types waiting to happen.

    What disasters?...
    Off the top of my head...
    1) It will mess with our ability to drain land in flash flooding. Anything impeding the ability of water to get where it needs to go (doesn’t matter if there are holes in the wall or whatever) is going to dramatically increase the risk of flooding...
    2) Messes with all kind of stuff ecologically. For all other projects, we have to do an Environmental Site Assessment, which is arduous. They’re either planning to circumvent all this,...
    ...or they haven’t accounted for it yet, because that’s part of the design process, and this thing hasn’t been designed.
    3) The prototypes they came up with are nearly impossible to build or don’t actually do the job. This article explains more:

    Writing on the Wall: Report Suggests Border Project Is Off-Track and Over Budget
    According to a U.S. Government Accountability Office report, the border wall prototypes are flawed and the Department of Homeland Security has likely underestimated project costs.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile....amp/17599.html


    And so on....
    The estimates provided for the cost are arrived at unreasonably. You can look for yourself at the two-year-old estimate that you see everyone citing.


    It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign...
    It’s going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trump’s lifetime....
    I’m a structural forensicist, which means I’m called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong....

    When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just *obliterated*....

    And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there aren’t that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project—
    .. a large quotient of us are immigrants, and besides, we can’t afford to bid on jobs that are this political. We’re small firms, and we’re already busy, and we don’t gamble our reputations on political footballs....
    So you’d end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and it’d generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me....
    And it won’t be effective. I could, right now, purchase a 32 foot extension ladder and weld a cheap custom saddle for the top of the proposed wall so that I can get over it...
    I don’t know who they talked to about the wall design and its efficacy, but it sure as heck wasn’t anybody with any engineering imagination.
    Another thing: we are not far from the day where inexpensive drones will be able to pick up and carry someone. This will happen in the next ten years, and it’s folly to think that the coyotes who ferry people over the border won’t purchase or create them.
    They’re low enough, quiet enough, and small enough to quickly zip people over any wall we could build undetected with our current monitoring setup.
    Let’s have border security, by all means, but let’s be smart about it. It’s not effective. It’s NOT cheap. The returns will be diminishing as technology advances, too. This is a ridiculous idea that will never be successfully executed and, would be a monumental waste of money. <>
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...321077761.html

    sorry for the potato formatting.
    the implication that the contractors wont have structural engineers on staff or consulting for them is... amusing is a good way to put it.

    the whole thing is a boondongle, but that's not really a legitimate criticism of the project.

    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    i am sure Trump imagines it with towers for the snipers who randomly shoot mexicans on the other side of the wall for.. i dunno, existing ?
    fyp

    mate we are trying to reverse-psychology el trumpino here

    why so srs?
    baiting for a argument, i need something to distract me from the need to prepare for monday's Calculus exam.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  14. #57514
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Decentralise democracy so they can't derail the livelihood of millions with a single vote?
    Because what we really need is rule by a bunch of authoritarian commissars ... because that worked out so well in the past ... you know, like in the united states of America.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  15. #57515

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Decentralise democracy so they can't derail the livelihood of millions with a single vote?
    What is the best route to doing that?


  16. #57516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Decentralise democracy so they can't derail the livelihood of millions with a single vote?
    What is the best route to doing that?
    Give more power to the states.

    Because that never went wrong before ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  17. #57517
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Decentralise democracy so they can't derail the livelihood of millions with a single vote?
    What is the best route to doing that?
    Give more power to the states.

    Because that never went wrong before ...
    Wouldn't be a bad idea if the states weren't based on historic borders drawn up during the colonial era and age of westward expansion that have no real function or purpose in the modern USA (apart from being useful tools to overrepresent rural voters).

    The fact that the two Dakotas are considered "equal" to Texas Florida California New York etc is retarded.

  18. #57518

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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Decentralise democracy so they can't derail the livelihood of millions with a single vote?
    What is the best route to doing that?
    Give more power to the states.

    Because that never went wrong before ...
    Wouldn't be a bad idea if the states weren't based on historic borders drawn up during the colonial era and age of westward expansion that have no real function or purpose in the modern USA (apart from being useful tools to overrepresent rural voters).

    The fact that the two Dakotas are considered "equal" to Texas Florida California New York etc is retarded.
    So rewrite the States borders first, then power to the States?


  19. #57519
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Decentralise democracy so they can't derail the livelihood of millions with a single vote?
    What is the best route to doing that?
    Give more power to the states.

    Because that never went wrong before ...
    Wouldn't be a bad idea if the states weren't based on historic borders drawn up during the colonial era and age of westward expansion that have no real function or purpose in the modern USA (apart from being useful tools to overrepresent rural voters).

    The fact that the two Dakotas are considered "equal" to Texas Florida California New York etc is retarded.
    So rewrite the States borders first, then power to the States?
    While it would never happen, yeah that would be the ideal solution to the ridiculous amount of unchecked power the federal government wields.

    Redraw state borders based on census numbers and make voting a mandatory activity on a federal holiday.

  20. #57520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Decentralise democracy so they can't derail the livelihood of millions with a single vote?
    What is the best route to doing that?
    Starting from scratch
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

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