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Thread: USA Politics Thread

  1. #47881
    Sacul's Avatar
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    Ow i dont disagree. Maybe i am to hopefull...
    Maybe well ermm ...Im not plugging my ears but i also dont think, hope, fear Armageddon is due on september 11 2018.....

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  2. #47882
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Armageddon is due on september 11 2018
    Quoting so we know who to blame when it happens.
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  3. #47883
    Larkonis Trassler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    ITT Alistair thinks you can move nuclear labs on a 3 day notice without trace
    He also thinks the US is running super secret research the IAEA doesn't know about.

    Where is Lark?
    Hi. Apologies for any grammar issues, on phone and full of cold. Not too genned up on all this but my two pence...

    The idea that Iran is hiding facilities is pretty laughable. Most of their research and capability seems to have been focussed on uranium enrichment (which isn't as good as going down the plutonium route). You can't do this effectively on a small scale squrreled away in a cave and as far as I'm aware their enrichment plants are quite modern and automated and all of the accountancy stuff is an integral part of the hardware/software and thus any attempts to produce weapons grade material would be flagged up pretty quick to IAEA inspectors.

    As for clandestine facilities... unlike chemical and biological weapons these aren't things you can do in the back of a truck. As said before uranium enrichment isn't something you would do on a small scale and requires a lot of space and a lot of power. Plutonium extraction requires more infrastructure still (and preferably reactors which utilise metalic fuel, which Iran doesn't have) and can be detected using isotope monitoring/air sampling techniques.

    As for other nuclear states having facilities 'off the books' there's provisions for that. Military facilities with a nuclear purpose aren't safeguarded (but declared) and if civilian facilities are being used for a campaign to, for example, reprocess a load of weapons grade fuel, then the relevent safeguarding authorities are notified but I'm not sure how much extra detail is required.

    EDIT: I don't think the deal was cast iron in terms of safeguarding requirements but it was adequate. I think the US withdrawing rather than attempt to renegotiate with regards to the missile program and regional interference has made the threat of proliferation worse.
    Last edited by Larkonis Trassler; May 15 2018 at 07:33:09 AM.


  4. #47884

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    Pretty much what Lark said. I'll just add that we knew about Irans nuclear program when they were trying to keep it a secret. We sabotaged their facilities (Stuxnet anyone?) and there were several mysterious deaths of scientists, engineers and managers in the secret program. That Iran now somehow has managed to restart their nuclear program under the nose of IAEA with the world watching is beyond ludicrous.

  5. #47885
    Larkonis Trassler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post
    Pretty much what Lark said. I'll just add that we knew about Irans nuclear program when they were trying to keep it a secret. We sabotaged their facilities (Stuxnet anyone?) and there were several mysterious deaths of scientists, engineers and managers in the secret program. That Iran now somehow has managed to restart their nuclear program under the nose of IAEA with the world watching is beyond ludicrous.
    And if there were anything untoward going on at undeclared facilities then no doubt our greatest ally would be all over it like in Iraq and Syria.


  6. #47886
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post
    Pretty much what Lark said. I'll just add that we knew about Irans nuclear program when they were trying to keep it a secret. We sabotaged their facilities (Stuxnet anyone?) and there were several mysterious deaths of scientists, engineers and managers in the secret program. That Iran now somehow has managed to restart their nuclear program under the nose of IAEA with the world watching is beyond ludicrous.
    And if there were anything untoward going on at undeclared facilities then no doubt our greatest ally would be all over it like in Iraq and Syria.
    nah, they're too busy machine-gunning Palestinians for being near a fence while the world-press wring their hands over how to blame the Palestinians for getting shot.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  7. #47887
    Sacul's Avatar
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    If only the fence had a Gun.

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  8. #47888

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SSgtSniper View Post
    The only reason Trump could do what he did, is because Obama backdoored the deal in, because it was actually a supremely shit deal that no Senate in the last 50 years would have touched with a 10 ft. pole.
    You can't be more wrong. This deal is, with the sole exception of the treaty to ban biological weapons, the best and tightest controlled weapons restriction contract in the world. Could it be better? Sure! But negotiating international contracts, es pecially when one side has to give up massive control over its deeds, are not simple to negotiate. I mean, it took 12 fucking years for that deal to be done. And Iran's nuclear facilities are ones of the best controlled (both automated and by in person inspections), that everyone (well, with the exception of the warmongers around Trump, ofc) acknowledge that Iran has held to the contract. And that treaty was accomplished, because even China and Russia back in the day supported it.
    Are we still pretending Europe, Russia and China didn't support it for their own economic gains reaped from an Iran no longer under sanctions?
    No. And I never said anything alike. Even the opposite: "one from which all involved parties benefited".

    So really, how is Trump going to expect to make a better deal. Not gonna happen. Not now or in the future again.
    You're almost assuredly right, it probably won't happen.

    I presume by "better" he (Trump) would want a deal that also stops Iran from developing intercontinental ballistic missiles for their nucle....er.....international food aid shipments-via-missile.

    He would probably also want a deal that would include Iran no longer actively funding terrorism. Or attacking Israel. Or pretty much anything like those two things.

    He might also want a deal that doesn't have a sunset in a few years after which no limits would exist and Iran would be flush with post-sanction cash from oil sales.

    But you ARE right, he's likely not going to get any of that.
    And you know what? There would have been plenty of time to renegotiate that treaty (or a new one), extending those terms. Never gonna happen now.

    Killing that in a notion to just undo "anything Obama" is the worst reasoning there could be.
    Oh, right, forget all that stuff I said up above, THIS was definitely it. Racism, absolutely. My bad.
    You're the U.S. citizen, so you really should know better: it was Trump who started that birther BS. So yes - nothing like good old racism.

    And let's not forget that no one is ever going to expect the U.S. to observe any negotiated terms any longer.
    Awesome! I am sure we can let European countries do all the observ'in from here forward.
    Which observing? The monitoring of the treaty? Well, there's an especially created entity for that which handles it already: The IAEO

    So yes: it DID start with Trump. And it will not end well for the U.S. credibility - if there was any left at all.
    American credibility is generally measured by the party in office. Republican, we have none. Democrats, we're like, totally 100% credible.

    So soon as we elect a Democrat, we're all good again! So 2020 then, we'll be fine again.
    Or you know, the GOP could be finally stop acting like a child, dump all those morons like Trump/Pence etc. and let actual conservatives run the party again (McCain comes to mind, but I'm sure there are much more. You know those guys better than me).

    Not to mention that both the Saudis and Iran stirring up the shit lately in that region and it's really getting hot there.
    Again, you're quite right, this signals the U.S. taking the Saudi side of the Arab v. Persian warm war. Not that's that new in any form.
    The "good news" now is nothing short of a military preemptive strike will stop Iran, which I totally acknowledge is an ideological driven and therefore dangerous regime - owning and using nukes. That bestest Korean leader already offered Iran those a couple of years ago ...

    If someone ever had doubts about Trump being a bad business man, than cancelling such a deal - one from which all involved parties benefited, should make this very clear.
    Biggest winner, people who sell stuff to Iran. And Iran.
    As if not selling to Cuba all those decades brought them to surrender...

    Here's something to consider: there are "conventional"/power-driven (of a lack of better terms) authorian regimes in the world, e.g. Syria, Saudi Arabia or Iraq under Hussein, Lybia under Gaddafi. And then there are ideological driven authorian regimes (like Cuba or Iran). To the former, sanctions are a pain. To the later not so much. Often sanctions just reaffirms their notion and make their convictions stronger.

  9. #47889

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    [QUOTE=Hel OWeen;1781910][QUOTE=Alistair;1781802][QUOTE=Hel OWeen;1781776]
    Quote Originally Posted by SSgtSniper View Post

    Killing that in a notion to just undo "anything Obama" is the worst reasoning there could be.
    Oh, right, forget all that stuff I said up above, THIS was definitely it. Racism, absolutely. My bad.
    You're the U.S. citizen, so you really should know better: it was Trump who started that birther BS. So yes - nothing like good old racism.
    The birther stuff actually was started by Hillary during her primary campaign against Obama. Trump and the tea party later grabbed it and ran with it.

  10. #47890

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiseman View Post

    The birther stuff actually was started by Hillary during her primary campaign against Obama. Trump and the tea party later grabbed it and ran with it.
    Politifactchecked

  11. #47891

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    Was going to say, loads of bollocks if I've ever seen one. Would love to see his proof if he has any beyond Trump tweeting it or something.

  12. #47892
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancehot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wiseman View Post

    The birther stuff actually was started by Hillary during her primary campaign against Obama. Trump and the tea party later grabbed it and ran with it.
    Politifactchecked
    So reading that Politifact piece it would be most appropriate to say "Clinton primary supporters" started the Birther movement vs. Obama that Trump and the right then subsequently ran to the extreme with.

    It should also be mentioned that Obama's literary agents had a hand in starting the birther movement by incorrectly listing his birthplace as Kenya until 2007 when he began his campaign for President.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason...b_1530399.html



  13. #47893
    Donor Sponk's Avatar
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    I'm willing to mark this myth as originally Plausible, but it didn't take long to be Busted.
    Contract stuff to Seraphina Amaranth.

    "You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say - of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position. Ever."


  14. #47894
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    Or you know, the GOP could be finally stop acting like a child, dump all those morons like Trump/Pence etc. and let actual conservatives run the party again (McCain comes to mind, but I'm sure there are much more. You know those guys better than me).
    Do you think I would object to this?

    The "good news" now is nothing short of a military preemptive strike will stop Iran, which I totally acknowledge is an ideological driven and therefore dangerous regime - owning and using nukes. That bestest Korean leader already offered Iran those a couple of years ago ...
    So without the U.S., the entirety of the EU, Russia and China can do nothing then? Sad commentary on the irrelevance of the EU in global affairs, wouldn't you say?

    If a non-nuclear Iran is so vital, maybe the EU should take the lead and fix the problem without the U.S. (especially given the horrible leadership here at current).

    Here's something to consider: there are "conventional"/power-driven (of a lack of better terms) authorian regimes in the world, e.g. Syria, Saudi Arabia or Iraq under Hussein, Lybia under Gaddafi. And then there are ideological driven authorian regimes (like Cuba or Iran). To the former, sanctions are a pain. To the later not so much. Often sanctions just reaffirms their notion and make their convictions stronger.
    Sanctions only work if there is enough universal support to make them work. Cuba didn't work because there was not enough universal support (was also a bad tactic for Cuba specifically IMO, but that's another thread).

    If the U.S., China, Russia and the EU enforced the sanctions in unity against Iran, they would have worked.

    Water under the bridge now. We'll see how it all plays out.


  15. #47895
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Or you know, the GOP could be finally stop acting like a child, dump all those morons like Trump/Pence etc. and let actual conservatives run the party again (McCain comes to mind, but I'm sure there are much more. You know those guys better than me).
    Do you think I would object to this?
    The American establishment would object to it...
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  16. #47896
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Or you know, the GOP could be finally stop acting like a child, dump all those morons like Trump/Pence etc. and let actual conservatives run the party again (McCain comes to mind, but I'm sure there are much more. You know those guys better than me).
    Do you think I would object to this?

    The "good news" now is nothing short of a military preemptive strike will stop Iran, which I totally acknowledge is an ideological driven and therefore dangerous regime - owning and using nukes. That bestest Korean leader already offered Iran those a couple of years ago ...
    So without the U.S., the entirety of the EU, Russia and China can do nothing then? Sad commentary on the irrelevance of the EU in global affairs, wouldn't you say?

    If a non-nuclear Iran is so vital, maybe the EU should take the lead and fix the problem without the U.S. (especially given the horrible leadership here at current).

    Here's something to consider: there are "conventional"/power-driven (of a lack of better terms) authorian regimes in the world, e.g. Syria, Saudi Arabia or Iraq under Hussein, Lybia under Gaddafi. And then there are ideological driven authorian regimes (like Cuba or Iran). To the former, sanctions are a pain. To the later not so much. Often sanctions just reaffirms their notion and make their convictions stronger.
    Sanctions only work if there is enough universal support to make them work. Cuba didn't work because there was not enough universal support (was also a bad tactic for Cuba specifically IMO, but that's another thread).

    If the U.S., China, Russia and the EU enforced the sanctions in unity against Iran, they would have worked.

    Water under the bridge now. We'll see how it all plays out.
    The Iran sanctions didnt work good enough? Wow ok ill Tell my persian friends that.....Just wow.

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  17. #47897
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post
    Pretty much what Lark said. I'll just add that we knew about Irans nuclear program when they were trying to keep it a secret. We sabotaged their facilities (Stuxnet anyone?) and there were several mysterious deaths of scientists, engineers and managers in the secret program. That Iran now somehow has managed to restart their nuclear program under the nose of IAEA with the world watching is beyond ludicrous.
    And if there were anything untoward going on at undeclared facilities then no doubt our greatest ally would be all over it like in Iraq and Syria.
    nah, they're too busy machine-gunning Palestinians for being near a fence while the world-press wring their hands over how to blame the Palestinians for getting shot.
    They charged one of the most militarized borders with molotovs and slingshots, what the fuck did they expect?

    It'll continue until they stop voting in Hamas (or if Hamas decides they want to stop playing political checkers with civilian lives for TV views)

  18. #47898
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    A kite carying a molotov cocktail taken down by a IDF drone was a new one in the Middle East Mad Max Ghetto War.

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  19. #47899
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    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post
    Pretty much what Lark said. I'll just add that we knew about Irans nuclear program when they were trying to keep it a secret. We sabotaged their facilities (Stuxnet anyone?) and there were several mysterious deaths of scientists, engineers and managers in the secret program. That Iran now somehow has managed to restart their nuclear program under the nose of IAEA with the world watching is beyond ludicrous.
    And if there were anything untoward going on at undeclared facilities then no doubt our greatest ally would be all over it like in Iraq and Syria.
    nah, they're too busy machine-gunning Palestinians for being near a fence while the world-press wring their hands over how to blame the Palestinians for getting shot.
    They charged one of the most militarized borders with molotovs and slingshots, what the fuck did they expect?

    It'll continue until they stop voting in Hamas (or if Hamas decides they want to stop playing political checkers with civilian lives for TV views)
    Geez i wonder how other countries adres riots..... Yeah clearly with machineguns.

  20. #47900
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    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    It'll continue until they stop voting in Hamas (or if Hamas decides they want to stop playing political checkers with civilian lives for TV views)
    This seems like victim blaming...
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

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