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Thread: USA Politics Thread

  1. #47861
    Movember 2012 Stoffl's Avatar
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    TIL: the evil uropian antisemites aren't interested in keeping ebil ayatollarian from nukes, we just hate the jews, want all dem sweet shah shekels and are simply trying to keep good guy Murica Military industrial complex down

    Thanks for the update Alistair!
    2/10/17 Greatposthellpurge never forget
    23/10/17 The Greatreposteninging ?

  2. #47862
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    <snip>
    I understand your argument, but I'm not sure I agree. Perhaps keeping with the sanctions might have been feasible. But then again, I'd rather have them on all suspect parties (Saudi-Arabia, Israel, Iran), not just on Iran.
    No doubt.

    There is no question the U.S. has sided with one bad guy (the Saudi regime) against another bad guy (the Iranians) for a host of reasons well beyond any semblance of "doing the right thing".

    Make no mistake, I find how the U.S. conducts diplomacy to be generally abhorant to any sense of values or morality. We side with the worst to defeat the slightly maybe worse. It's bad business IMO, but the "pragmatist" would say it's a requirement.

    I hate to refer to the actual treaty again, but there is no place "to work in secret where the inspectors are not permitted".

    The treaty, pages 42-43, sections 75-78.

    Any location you want the IAEA to look is valid, nothing is restricted, some locations are just listed under constant surveillance. If Iran complains, you need a majority vote in the council of signatories (US, UK, France, Germany, and EU make five) and Iran has three days to provide access.
    You and I see this rather differently. You see "nowhere to hide". I see "everywhere to hide, a drawn out process to request to look someplace new, and all that time +3 days to move any evidence of wrongdoing before the inspectors arrive".

    If those terms were against the U.S., I'd laugh my ass off at how ineffective they'd be. The U.S. could (and almost assuredly HAS) hidden facilities, and hidden efforts the IAEA have never seen, have no idea exist, and are in breach of treaties.

    I have no doubt Iran can do (and is doing) the same. It's harder for them, to be sure.

    I'm not entirely sure on the EU and trade angle either. But I don't really have hard data to counter the claim so until I have, I'll just pile that argument into the 'might have some merit' pile. And just to point out, the we never lifted the monetary restrictions on Iran, meaning their banks have never been allowed on the global financial markets. I know from experience, there's no way to have Iran transfer money abroad - the few Iranian neuroscientists that want to travel to a conference we're organizing have literally no way to pay the conference fee except to travel to Finland in person, exchange physical money and then paying with physical money at the site. All they got from the treaty is us 'maybe' doing business with them. The US seemed really eager to do so, even - Boeing sold them planes for $20B, for example. Haven't heard of any EU investments or trade deals.
    Aye, that Boing deal was plastered all over the news when it occurred, . I freely admit I don't have any hard lists here either, only what I recall from news reporting on BBC/CNN generally.

    This is a good place to start says quick-google-search: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35317159

    That's a nice start for economic incentives for Europe and certainly for Iran.

    Due to these issues (really strict treaty allowing for probing of Ayatollah's butt hole if we wanted to, no real promises to Iran) the treaty was as good as we could get under the circumstances. Not greatest ever, but a good step in the right direction and one that could suggest that soft power still has a place - especially since nobody's keen on yet another land war in Asia. Realistically, I think it was a pretty good deal that took years to negotiate.
    I think the limit of the scope of the treaty to "just nukes" is artificial.

    The treaty could and should have additionally addressed people held in Iran, terrorism support, their military interventionism in Iraq, and their development of missiles.

    The problem as I see it is the lack of unity of the so-called allies. A united Front of the great powers would have Iran crippled and their government overturned. Without War IMO I should add.

    I'm curious, does the deal remain in place for those who didn't pull out? Shouldn't the Europeans, Russians and China be telling Iran to stay in and they'll stay in? Or does the U.S. withdrawal terminate by default the whole thing?


  3. #47863
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoffl View Post
    TIL: the evil uropian antisemites aren't interested in keeping ebil ayatollarian from nukes, we just hate the jews, want all dem sweet shah shekels and are simply trying to keep good guy Murica Military industrial complex down

    Thanks for the update Alistair!
    Europeans pretending anti-Semitism doesn't exist in Europe is akin to white Americans pretending anti-black racism doesn't exist in America.

    And you sound just as stupid as any American when you "doth protest too much" about it.

    P.S. There is nothing "good guy" about the U.S. Military Industrial Complex.


  4. #47864
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    ITT Alistair thinks you can move nuclear labs on a 3 day notice without trace

  5. #47865
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    ITT Alistair thinks you can move nuclear labs on a 3 day notice without trace
    He also thinks the US is running super secret research the IAEA doesn't know about.

    Where is Lark?
    nevar forget

  6. #47866
    Super Chillerator Global Moderator teds :D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    ITT Alistair thinks you can move nuclear labs on a 3 day notice without trace
    He also thinks the US is running super secret research the IAEA doesn't know about.

    Where is Lark?
    erm i'd wager he's right. i'd wager any serious country capable of NBC has stuff squirreled away that inspectors don't know about.

    ed- and that's not tinfoil hattery, it's just common sense - never show all your cards.
    Last edited by teds :D; May 14 2018 at 09:38:09 PM.

  7. #47867
    Caldrion Dosto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    ITT Alistair thinks you can move nuclear labs on a 3 day notice without trace
    Its almost like half life of Uranium and Plutonium is a day or two and it absolutely doesn't contaminate anything a measurement instrument can find later on.....

  8. #47868
    Sacul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post

    He also thinks the US is running super secret research the IAEA doesn't know about.

    Where is Lark?
    I would like to refer to the IAEA charter. In response to Alistair ' You see "nowhere to hide". I see "everywhere to hide' that also goes for lets say hmmm Germany....Belgium...
    Iran isn't the good guy in this debate but saying stuff as the above quote is just plain retarded. There HAS to be a level of trust or no deal is ever possible. Just like Trump is doing now. When will Trump be satisfied? I guess with booths on the ground...ow wait there are boots on the ground just not USMC.
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  9. #47869
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    ITT Alistair thinks you can move nuclear labs on a 3 day notice without trace
    He also thinks the US is running super secret research the IAEA doesn't know about.

    Where is Lark?
    erm i'd wager he's right. i'd wager any serious country capable of NBC has stuff squirreled away that inspectors don't know about.

    ed- and that's not tinfoil hattery, it's just common sense - never show all your cards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post

    He also thinks the US is running super secret research the IAEA doesn't know about.

    Where is Lark?
    I would like to refer to the IAEA charter. In response to Alistair ' You see "nowhere to hide". I see "everywhere to hide' that also goes for lets say hmmm Germany....Belgium...
    Iran isn't the good guy in this debate but saying stuff as the above quote is just plain retarded. There HAS to be a level of trust or no deal is ever possible. Just like Trump is doing now. When will Trump be satisfied? I guess with booths on the ground...ow wait there are boots on the ground just not USMC.
    I know that every country has some stuff in some research laboratory, but claiming that those are super secret is hilarious. A lot of universities do research on all sorts of diseases and get funded by their governments. It's not even hidden.

    Random German uni: https://health.uni-hohenheim.de/en/119313

    Research topic number one: Anthrax.
    nevar forget

  10. #47870
    Sacul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    ITT Alistair thinks you can move nuclear labs on a 3 day notice without trace
    He also thinks the US is running super secret research the IAEA doesn't know about.

    Where is Lark?
    erm i'd wager he's right. i'd wager any serious country capable of NBC has stuff squirreled away that inspectors don't know about.

    ed- and that's not tinfoil hattery, it's just common sense - never show all your cards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post

    He also thinks the US is running super secret research the IAEA doesn't know about.

    Where is Lark?
    I would like to refer to the IAEA charter. In response to Alistair ' You see "nowhere to hide". I see "everywhere to hide' that also goes for lets say hmmm Germany....Belgium...
    Iran isn't the good guy in this debate but saying stuff as the above quote is just plain retarded. There HAS to be a level of trust or no deal is ever possible. Just like Trump is doing now. When will Trump be satisfied? I guess with booths on the ground...ow wait there are boots on the ground just not USMC.
    I know that every country has some stuff in some research laboratory, but claiming that those are super secret is hilarious. A lot of universities do research on all sorts of diseases and get funded by their governments. It's not even hidden.

    Random German uni: https://health.uni-hohenheim.de/en/119313

    Research topic number one: Anthrax.
    I agree.
    I wasn't the one who said ' You see "nowhere to hide". I see "everywhere to hide'....

    The amount of scope Iran was under was more than NL/BL/Gr/Fr/Sp/It was under (combined). But hey....bad guy hurrdur they migh in that last mountain shelter...well now we will never fuckig know will we Mr. Trump.
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  11. #47871
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    I know that every country has some stuff in some research laboratory, but claiming that those are super secret is hilarious. A lot of universities do research on all sorts of diseases and get funded by their governments. It's not even hidden.

    Random German uni: https://health.uni-hohenheim.de/en/119313

    Research topic number one: Anthrax.
    I don't understand your point. Are you saying that the US and Russia have secret laboratories that aren't actually secret?

    Because I am certain that both US and RU posses, at the very least, a weaponized variant of smallpox that isn't public knowledge.

  12. #47872
    Dorvil Barranis's Avatar
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    ″[Trump], like King Cyrus before him, fulfilled the biblical prophecy of the gods worshipped by Jews, Christians and, yes, Muslims, that Jerusalem is the eternal capital of the Jewish state and that the Jewish people finally deserve a righteous, free and sovereign Israel.

    Fox News commentator on moving the US embassy, biblical prophecy unlocked! Thanks Trump! This quote doesn't come in till 5:45, but the entire thing is pretty shocking, and yes, I believe part of Trump wanting out of the deal was because, like the commentator states, it was the Obama Iran deal.

    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  13. #47873
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caldrion Dosto View Post
    Relations are build pretty much like any business, on repeated customers/treaties/contracts.
    Trumps businesses are built of fucking over consumers, contractors, business partners and anyone else that happens to walk past.. He's done quite well over the years doing that.
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  14. #47874
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    ITT Alistair thinks you can move nuclear labs on a 3 day notice without trace
    He also thinks the US is running super secret research the IAEA doesn't know about.

    Where is Lark?
    So is anyone else reading that as IKEA every time.. I dont know why but because of that one little thing I cant take anything in this thread seriously..
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  15. #47875

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Caldrion Dosto View Post
    Relations are build pretty much like any business, on repeated customers/treaties/contracts.
    Trumps businesses are built of fucking over consumers, contractors, business partners and anyone else that happens to walk past.. He's done quite well over the years doing that.
    That he's done "quite well" is one of the biggest scams he's successfully ran on the world's populace. He hasn't done well at all, but scammed his way out all the time and survived due to media attention.

  16. #47876
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Caldrion Dosto View Post
    Relations are build pretty much like any business, on repeated customers/treaties/contracts.
    Trumps businesses are built of fucking over consumers, contractors, business partners and anyone else that happens to walk past.. He's done quite well over the years doing that.
    That he's done "quite well" is one of the biggest scams he's successfully ran on the world's populace. He hasn't done well at all, but scammed his way out all the time and survived due to media attention.
    I dunno.. He's managed to be the star on a few TV shows, made some money (personally, at least enough to cover whats hes been spending personally), talked people in to letting him be president.. "Done quite well" means for him self. Many many of his businesses have failed but as a general rules hes managed to walk away from them mostly unhurt because of the aforementioned fucking everyone else over.

    But I'm absolutely sure he wont do exactly the same thing hes done a thousand times before with America.
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  17. #47877
    Movember 2012 Stoffl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stoffl View Post
    TIL: the evil uropian antisemites aren't interested in keeping ebil ayatollarian from nukes, we just hate the jews, want all dem sweet shah shekels and are simply trying to keep good guy Murica Military industrial complex down

    Thanks for the update Alistair!

    And you sound just as stupid as any American when you "doth protest too much" about it.
    Just going with your program bruv
    2/10/17 Greatposthellpurge never forget
    23/10/17 The Greatreposteninging ?

  18. #47878
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    I know that every country has some stuff in some research laboratory, but claiming that those are super secret is hilarious. A lot of universities do research on all sorts of diseases and get funded by their governments. It's not even hidden.

    Random German uni: https://health.uni-hohenheim.de/en/119313

    Research topic number one: Anthrax.
    I don't understand your point. Are you saying that the US and Russia have secret laboratories that aren't actually secret?

    Because I am certain that both US and RU posses, at the very least, a weaponized variant of smallpox that isn't public knowledge.
    I'm saying that a lot of countries have that kind of research and that it's not exactly secret even though it's not exactly public knowledge.

    Tapapapatalk
    nevar forget

  19. #47879
    Sacul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Caldrion Dosto View Post
    Relations are build pretty much like any business, on repeated customers/treaties/contracts.
    Trumps businesses are built of fucking over consumers, contractors, business partners and anyone else that happens to walk past.. He's done quite well over the years doing that.
    That he's done "quite well" is one of the biggest scams he's successfully ran on the world's populace. He hasn't done well at all, but scammed his way out all the time and survived due to media attention.
    I dunno.. He's managed to be the star on a few TV shows, made some money (personally, at least enough to cover whats hes been spending personally), talked people in to letting him be president.. "Done quite well" means for him self. Many many of his businesses have failed but as a general rules hes managed to walk away from them mostly unhurt because of the aforementioned fucking everyone else over.

    But I'm absolutely sure he wont do exactly the same thing hes done a thousand times before with America.
    He 'has done well in the world of real estate and done well in show biz' are very very different than doing that on the international stage or the domestic stage both as the president of the USA.
    I personally completely believe was surprised shitless when he was elected and he is just coming into his own in this new role so to speak. I dont like him but maybe he might take on a decent persona. He does do a decent job as 'pretending' (going by his past). There are a few nice theorems in psychology about pretending or having a mask on enough to actually becoming that person. Who knows he surprised us enough so far.



    Verstuurd vanaf mijn LENNY2 met Tapatalk
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  20. #47880

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Caldrion Dosto View Post
    Relations are build pretty much like any business, on repeated customers/treaties/contracts.
    Trumps businesses are built of fucking over consumers, contractors, business partners and anyone else that happens to walk past.. He's done quite well over the years doing that.
    That he's done "quite well" is one of the biggest scams he's successfully ran on the world's populace. He hasn't done well at all, but scammed his way out all the time and survived due to media attention.
    I dunno.. He's managed to be the star on a few TV shows, made some money (personally, at least enough to cover whats hes been spending personally), talked people in to letting him be president.. "Done quite well" means for him self. Many many of his businesses have failed but as a general rules hes managed to walk away from them mostly unhurt because of the aforementioned fucking everyone else over.

    But I'm absolutely sure he wont do exactly the same thing hes done a thousand times before with America.
    He 'has done well in the world of real estate and done well in show biz' are very very different than doing that on the international stage or the domestic stage both as the president of the USA.
    I personally completely believe was surprised shitless when he was elected and he is just coming into his own in this new role so to speak. I dont like him but maybe he might take on a decent persona. He does do a decent job as 'pretending' (going by his past). There are a few nice theorems in psychology about pretending or having a mask on enough to actually becoming that person. Who knows he surprised us enough so far.



    Verstuurd vanaf mijn LENNY2 met Tapatalk
    I get what you're saying with the 'pretend enough and it rubs off on you' sort of thing but the issue is he hasn't put on a 'decent persona' mask as president at all, he's still the exact same shitter shittering with more power, only now he thinks he's literally god for pulling off this president scam.

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