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Thread: USA Politics Thread

  1. #47821
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Its ok to not like the politicians of either side that we're saddled with.

    But recently more people seem to use this as armor to peddle their dumb shit. See guys I'm really impartial cause I hate both sides and also [dumb misinformed opinion]
    Let me try

    I hate both sides and dont mind trump because he's making the US empire collapse faster than anyone could have predicted
    that just makes you a misanthropic autist
    No, he could be a patriotic autist. If he was Iranian, Russian or Chinese (for example).
    Strong doubt tbh

  2. #47822
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    NEW: At yesterday’s meeting of the White House comms team, a visibly upset and furious Sarah Sanders told the group: “I am sure this conversation is going to leak, too. And that’s just disgusting." Here's what happened next, per 5 sources in the room:
    (el oh el)

    link

  3. #47823
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparq View Post
    NEW: At yesterday’s meeting of the White House comms team, a visibly upset and furious Sarah Sanders told the group: “I am sure this conversation is going to leak, too. And that’s just disgusting." Here's what happened next, per 5 sources in the room:
    (el oh el)

    link
    oh man that's delicious

  4. #47824
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparq View Post
    NEW: At yesterday’s meeting of the White House comms team, a visibly upset and furious Sarah Sanders told the group: “I am sure this conversation is going to leak, too. And that’s just disgusting." Here's what happened next, per 5 sources in the room:
    (el oh el)

    link
    5 of aprox. 20 total in the room I heard reported yesterday. 25% of your group leaking is just lols, if true.

    Clearly, they have failed to hire folks who won't leak any and every thing.

    Honestly, I found the original "insult" to be rather tame for all the hand-wringing tear-laden feels it generated. It's cold, no doubt, but the kind of shit plenty of people say in private, or when they think it's private.

    Trump Admin just needs to realize, there is no private in their administration. Don't say it or write it if you don't want to see it on the cover of the Washington Post and the lead story on CNN.


  5. #47825
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Its ok to not like the politicians of either side that we're saddled with.

    But recently more people seem to use this as armor to peddle their dumb shit. See guys I'm really impartial cause I hate both sides and also [dumb misinformed opinion]
    Let me try

    I hate both sides and dont mind trump because he's making the US empire collapse faster than anyone could have predicted
    Here’s an interesting question. Do you think US “defense” capabilities have degraded under Trump?

    If not, nothing is collapsing, in any kind of imperial sense...
    meh

  6. #47826
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparq View Post
    NEW: At yesterday’s meeting of the White House comms team, a visibly upset and furious Sarah Sanders told the group: “I am sure this conversation is going to leak, too. And that’s just disgusting." Here's what happened next, per 5 sources in the room:
    (el oh el)

    link
    5 of aprox. 20 total in the room I heard reported yesterday. 25% of your group leaking is just lols, if true.

    Clearly, they have failed to hire folks who won't leak any and every thing.

    Honestly, I found the original "insult" to be rather tame for all the hand-wringing tear-laden feels it generated. It's cold, no doubt, but the kind of shit plenty of people say in private, or when they think it's private.

    Trump Admin just needs to realize, there is no private in their administration. Don't say it or write it if you don't want to see it on the cover of the Washington Post and the lead story on CNN.
    >hand-wringing tear-laden

    Your posting?

  7. #47827
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    Fuck off already xeno

  8. #47828
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Its ok to not like the politicians of either side that we're saddled with.

    But recently more people seem to use this as armor to peddle their dumb shit. See guys I'm really impartial cause I hate both sides and also [dumb misinformed opinion]
    Let me try

    I hate both sides and dont mind trump because he's making the US empire collapse faster than anyone could have predicted
    Here’s an interesting question. Do you think US “defense” capabilities have degraded under Trump?

    If not, nothing is collapsing, in any kind of imperial sense...
    Military strength is only one part of a nation's strength or vitality. On pure numbers China is now up to 1/3 of the US defense budget, and they do it cheaper than the US does, so it's probably higher in reality. They will no doubt overtake the US before the first half of this century is over. As it is, the US would now not willingly get into a shooting war with the Chinese over, say Taiwan. They might "win" in a tactical sense, although I doubt it so close to the Chinese mainland, but the losses would be horrific.

    But that's not the point. The point is that the US overspends on its military in comparison to what it spends on its infrastructure, education and health. While the US is an amazingly resilient country, I'm not too sure that current spending levels are sustainable.
    Будь смиренным, будь кротким, не заботься о тленном
    Власти, данной Богом, сынок, будь навеки верным...
    Я люблю Росcию, я - патриот

  9. #47829
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebomby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Its ok to not like the politicians of either side that we're saddled with.

    But recently more people seem to use this as armor to peddle their dumb shit. See guys I'm really impartial cause I hate both sides and also [dumb misinformed opinion]
    Let me try

    I hate both sides and dont mind trump because he's making the US empire collapse faster than anyone could have predicted
    Here’s an interesting question. Do you think US “defense” capabilities have degraded under Trump?

    If not, nothing is collapsing, in any kind of imperial sense...
    Military strength is only one part of a nation's strength or vitality. On pure numbers China is now up to 1/3 of the US defense budget, and they do it cheaper than the US does, so it's probably higher in reality. They will no doubt overtake the US before the first half of this century is over. As it is, the US would now not willingly get into a shooting war with the Chinese over, say Taiwan. They might "win" in a tactical sense, although I doubt it so close to the Chinese mainland, but the losses would be horrific.

    But that's not the point. The point is that the US overspends on its military in comparison to what it spends on its infrastructure, education and health. While the US is an amazingly resilient country, I'm not too sure that current spending levels are sustainable.
    No, I don't either. My point is that the military industrial complex is doing just fine under Trump.
    meh

  10. #47830
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Its ok to not like the politicians of either side that we're saddled with.

    But recently more people seem to use this as armor to peddle their dumb shit. See guys I'm really impartial cause I hate both sides and also [dumb misinformed opinion]
    Let me try

    I hate both sides and dont mind trump because he's making the US empire collapse faster than anyone could have predicted
    solid anti-west tankie scenes

    Of course if it collapses that will mean lots of pain for millions of people. A gradual decline in power is better for everyone in the US. Except the extremists and apocalypse preachers

  11. #47831
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by thebomby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Its ok to not like the politicians of either side that we're saddled with.

    But recently more people seem to use this as armor to peddle their dumb shit. See guys I'm really impartial cause I hate both sides and also [dumb misinformed opinion]
    Let me try

    I hate both sides and dont mind trump because he's making the US empire collapse faster than anyone could have predicted
    Here’s an interesting question. Do you think US “defense” capabilities have degraded under Trump?

    If not, nothing is collapsing, in any kind of imperial sense...
    Military strength is only one part of a nation's strength or vitality. On pure numbers China is now up to 1/3 of the US defense budget, and they do it cheaper than the US does, so it's probably higher in reality. They will no doubt overtake the US before the first half of this century is over. As it is, the US would now not willingly get into a shooting war with the Chinese over, say Taiwan. They might "win" in a tactical sense, although I doubt it so close to the Chinese mainland, but the losses would be horrific.

    But that's not the point. The point is that the US overspends on its military in comparison to what it spends on its infrastructure, education and health. While the US is an amazingly resilient country, I'm not too sure that current spending levels are sustainable.
    No, I don't either. My point is that the military industrial complex is doing just fine under Trump.
    You're correct. If anything the military industrial complex loves Trump.

    In all seriousness the only thing that can be said to have eroded is the credibility of the US abroad, but I don't see any countries with US bases getting rid of them anytime soon and unless the economy truly collapses there won't be any reduction in defense spending.

  12. #47832
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Please. Republicans act like spoiled children for 8 years in terms of running the country because the country had the teremity to elect a negro and then how much of Benghazi,etc, did we have to sit through?
    Nowhere in the stuff you quoted says anything that even implies a denial of that, you're only saying this because you feel like someone is attacking your team or something and it's stupid. Like really, really stupid.

    In fact the only person I complimented in my response was a democrat. What the fuck dude.

    "Those guys are being hyperbolic retards so I can be a hyperbolic retard too and you can't tell me I'm dumb!"

    I absolutely can and will.

    Or perhaps a more literal comparison: "Those guys said Obama was a muslim kenyan and wouldn't shut up about Benghazi for 8 years, therefore I should be allowed to call Trump a rapist who calls for lynching black children!" The fuck? No. That's not how this works. Now I can't distinguish you from them.

    Ironically the very reason I kind of like and defend Obama was because he didn't do this shit. The worst he did was say something about certain people clinging to their bibles and their guns, and that was a mistake to say but tame as fuck by comparison.
    Last edited by Frug; May 13 2018 at 05:20:54 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loire
    I'm too stupid to say anything that deserves being in your magnificent signature.

  13. #47833
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Please. Republicans act like spoiled children for 8 years in terms of running the country because the country had the teremity to elect a negro and then how much of Benghazi,etc, did we have to sit through?
    Nowhere in the stuff you quoted says anything that even implies a denial of that, you're only saying this because you feel like someone is attacking your team or something and it's stupid. Like really, really stupid.

    In fact the only person I complimented in my response was a democrat. What the fuck dude.

    "Those guys are being hyperbolic retards so I can be a hyperbolic retard too and you can't tell me I'm dumb!"

    I absolutely can and will.

    Or perhaps a more literal comparison: "Those guys said Obama was a muslim kenyan and wouldn't shut up about Benghazi for 8 years, therefore I should be allowed to call Trump a rapist who calls for lynching black children!" The fuck? No. That's not how this works. Now I can't distinguish you from them.
    I like how you ignored the part of my post where I basically agreed with you because my point is obsructionism is the norm and the republicans (mostly) have no one to blame but themselves. Also, I’m not, in a voting law sense, team democrat, just so we are clear. I will often vote for them because they don’t seem quite as mustache-twirlingly evil most of time, but I am not registered as one, nor do I ever intend to.

  14. #47834
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    I like how you ignored the part of my post where I basically agreed with you because my point is obsructionism is the norm and the republicans (mostly) have no one to blame but themselves.
    Well I agree with that part to some degree, although that still doesn't make that excusable. Nobody who supports Trump can claim he isn't able to do what he wants because of obstructionism without giving Obama twice as much credit for working with a loaded deck.

    edit: it's morning and I'm hungover, I shouldn't argue with you when I'm hungover

    Quote Originally Posted by Loire
    I'm too stupid to say anything that deserves being in your magnificent signature.

  15. #47835
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Also, I’m not, in a voting law sense, team democrat, just so we are clear. I will often vote for them because they don’t seem quite as mustache-twirlingly evil most of time, but I am not registered as one, nor do I ever intend to.
    If your state has closed primaries you should register for a party simply because the primary seems to matter more than the actual election lately.

    And I'm pretty sure being registered in a party dosen't lock your vote in for the general, so you could vote in the red primary then pick the blue candidate in the general if you wanted.
    Last edited by Approaching Walrus; May 13 2018 at 06:13:36 PM.

  16. #47836
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Also, I’m not, in a voting law sense, team democrat, just so we are clear. I will often vote for them because they don’t seem quite as mustache-twirlingly evil most of time, but I am not registered as one, nor do I ever intend to.
    If your state has closed primaries you should register for a party simply because the primary seems to matter more than the actual election lately.

    And I'm pretty sure being registered in a party dosen't lock your vote in for the general, so you could vote in the red primary then pick the blue candidate in the general if you wanted.
    Well, in Cali, for better or for worse, we moved to top 2 primaries, as opposed to red team vs blue team. In some ways, I think this seems to having an impact and keeping people a bit more honest and *gasp* creating more diversity of opinion within the parties as well, but its really the first time we're seeing it, so I'm reserving my judgment. Does seem like it might be a bit of a more positive evolution.
    meh

  17. #47837
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    https://www.axios.com/trump-tweets-c...c2540530d.html

    So, ZTE were fined for being in violation of Iranian sanctions and are banned in government workplaces due to spyware, but Trump wants to save them?

    All this coming out on the same day he threatens EU countries with sanctions if they trade with Iran?

    hmmmmmm

    I'm sure it's Obama's fault

  18. #47838
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    RIP the Trans-Atlantic Alliance, 1945-2018

    The Atlantic alliance, built to contain the Soviet Union in the aftermath of World War II, began to die when the Cold War ended. What kept it alive over the last three decades has been less strategic necessity than a convergence of values — the values of the liberal postwar order. Now, the senior partner of the alliance, the United States, has lost interest in those values. The alliance was already a corpse, but Donald Trump drove the last nail into its coffin when he decided this week to withdraw from the nuclear deal with Iran

    What now? The United States will lurch from crisis to crisis, but Europe faces more existential questions: It has been expelled from the garden — albeit a very thorny one — maintained by U.S. military and diplomatic power and now must build a new home of its own. The European diplomats, ex-diplomats, and scholars I have spent the last few days talking to agree on that much. They’re less sure whether Europe is up to the task.

    Am I — and my interlocutors — inflating a very bad moment into a mortal one? Perhaps that would be true if the problem were only Trump. In fact, Europe ceased to be the world’s geostrategic center when the Soviet menace disappeared. The humanitarian crises of the next decade reinforced the shared values of Western nations, but 9/11 abruptly diverted the United States to an obsessive focus on the Middle East. Though Barack Obama restored the shared faith in multilateralism and institutions that George W. Bush had breached, his own interests lay more in the Pacific. He yearned to pivot away from the yawning pit of the Arab world to Asia. Obama wanted the United States to face toward the future, not the past.

    The American people, meanwhile, preferred to face home. They wanted a pivot to America, and they voted for the candidate who promised to deliver it. It has thus fallen to Trump to deliver the coup de grâce to the alliance that has defined the postwar world. The Iran decision followed his decision to impose tariffs on European aluminum and steel, which followed his decision to withdraw from the Paris climate accords. Trump is no more contemptuous toward European allies than Asian or Latin ones; the only opinion to which he defers is that of his base.

    François Delattre, France’s ambassador to the United Nations, says he regards the Iran decision as “the best illustration of the Jacksonian moment the United States is going through — the uni-isolationist moment.” A new president, he concedes, might restore multilateralism. But, Delattre adds, “I am personally afraid the withdrawal is durable. The disengagement started before President Trump, and I am afraid it will last after him.”

    The Iran decision has resonated among European leaders as none of Trump’s previous follies has. First, Europeans regard the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, as the pact is called, as the foremost proof of their capacity to act coherently and effectively. The Iran diplomacy came hard on the heels of the debacle over the Iraq War, when a divided Europe watched a U.S. president stumble into disaster. “Iran was the opposite of that,” says Mark Leonard, the director of the European Council on Foreign Relations. “Instead of standing blinded in the headlights of American policy, Europe figured out what its own interests were.” European diplomats negotiated with the Iranians when the Bush administration refused to do so, designing a package of sanctions and incentives ultimately adopted and pushed through the U.N. Security Council by Obama.

    Europe hoped to reduce tensions in the Middle East by drawing Iran out of its revolutionary shell. And it succeeded. The deal, Leonard says, was a “massive source of pride.”

    As a simple matter of geographical proximity, Europe is threatened by conflict in the Middle East as the United States is not. The tidal wave of asylum-seekers from Syria in 2015 upended European politics and exposed a popular vein of xenophobia and illiberalism that has thrown a terrible scare into European elites. Europe simply cannot afford to follow the American lead if the United States is prepared to sow further chaos in the region.

    Of course, Europe’s old reputation for deference and submission to the United States was reinforced by the spectacle of French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel visiting the White House in the hope of propitiating the First Bully and then being dismissed with scarcely a “by your leave” — and oh, by the way, we’re still coming after your steel industry. But perhaps Europe’s leaders needed the shock. Hours after Trump’s announcement, Macron, Merkel, and British Prime Minister Theresa May issued a joint statement reminding the world that the deal had been “unanimously endorsed by the U.N. Security Council” and thus remained “the binding international legal framework” on Iran’s nuclear program. European Council President Donald Tusk announced that Trump’s Iran and trade policies “will meet a united European approach.”

    The fur will fly if the United States goes ahead with secondary sanctions targeting European companies that continue to do business with Iran. Given the current bellicose mood in Washington, there is good reason to think that it will do so. Hours after assuming his post as U.S. ambassador in Berlin, Richard Grenell tweeted, “German companies doing business in Iran should wind down operations immediately.” That would be Europe’s put-up-or-shut-up moment. “We’re going to have to treat the U.S. as a hostile power,” Leonard (director of the European Council on Foreign Relations) says. “We might have to introduce countermeasures against U.S. companies.” The mind reels. No, the heart breaks.

    Neither side has an incentive to widen the breach. Some major European firms may withdraw from the Iranian market, even as European bankers potentially devise an end run around the U.S. financial system that will blunt the effect of secondary sanctions. Still, a combination of U.S. tariffs and sanctions may provoke the European Union to erect barriers against American products and services in Europe, leading to a trade war between the erstwhile partners.
    I am betting that Bolton will convince Trump to start a war with Iran by 2019 and call on NATO to join him. NATO will refuse, and Trump will use that as pretext to withdraw from the alliance.

    Europe should start seriously considering a future where the US is no longer in NATO and arming itself I think.
    Last edited by Approaching Walrus; May 13 2018 at 11:45:57 PM.

  19. #47839

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    Scary thought that i would even call it remotely possible, but... i see no grounds in the NATO framework for that. Previous actions (Kosovo, Libya) were grounded at least in UNSC resolutions; fat chance that Trump will get one of those over Iran.
    Iraq I and II have shown that the US will act unilaterally without consequence. I just cant see how anyone, after all that has happened in the past 20 years, would be willing to die in another desert far from home for some impotent old assholes and their financial interests. Fuck war.

  20. #47840

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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    RIP the Trans-Atlantic Alliance, 1945-2018

    The Atlantic alliance, built to contain the Soviet Union in the aftermath of World War II, began to die when the Cold War ended. What kept it alive over the last three decades has been less strategic necessity than a convergence of values — the values of the liberal postwar order. Now, the senior partner of the alliance, the United States, has lost interest in those values. The alliance was already a corpse, but Donald Trump drove the last nail into its coffin when he decided this week to withdraw from the nuclear deal with Iran

    What now? The United States will lurch from crisis to crisis, but Europe faces more existential questions: It has been expelled from the garden — albeit a very thorny one — maintained by U.S. military and diplomatic power and now must build a new home of its own. The European diplomats, ex-diplomats, and scholars I have spent the last few days talking to agree on that much. They’re less sure whether Europe is up to the task.

    Am I — and my interlocutors — inflating a very bad moment into a mortal one? Perhaps that would be true if the problem were only Trump. In fact, Europe ceased to be the world’s geostrategic center when the Soviet menace disappeared. The humanitarian crises of the next decade reinforced the shared values of Western nations, but 9/11 abruptly diverted the United States to an obsessive focus on the Middle East. Though Barack Obama restored the shared faith in multilateralism and institutions that George W. Bush had breached, his own interests lay more in the Pacific. He yearned to pivot away from the yawning pit of the Arab world to Asia. Obama wanted the United States to face toward the future, not the past.

    The American people, meanwhile, preferred to face home. They wanted a pivot to America, and they voted for the candidate who promised to deliver it. It has thus fallen to Trump to deliver the coup de grâce to the alliance that has defined the postwar world. The Iran decision followed his decision to impose tariffs on European aluminum and steel, which followed his decision to withdraw from the Paris climate accords. Trump is no more contemptuous toward European allies than Asian or Latin ones; the only opinion to which he defers is that of his base.

    François Delattre, France’s ambassador to the United Nations, says he regards the Iran decision as “the best illustration of the Jacksonian moment the United States is going through — the uni-isolationist moment.” A new president, he concedes, might restore multilateralism. But, Delattre adds, “I am personally afraid the withdrawal is durable. The disengagement started before President Trump, and I am afraid it will last after him.”

    The Iran decision has resonated among European leaders as none of Trump’s previous follies has. First, Europeans regard the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, as the pact is called, as the foremost proof of their capacity to act coherently and effectively. The Iran diplomacy came hard on the heels of the debacle over the Iraq War, when a divided Europe watched a U.S. president stumble into disaster. “Iran was the opposite of that,” says Mark Leonard, the director of the European Council on Foreign Relations. “Instead of standing blinded in the headlights of American policy, Europe figured out what its own interests were.” European diplomats negotiated with the Iranians when the Bush administration refused to do so, designing a package of sanctions and incentives ultimately adopted and pushed through the U.N. Security Council by Obama.

    Europe hoped to reduce tensions in the Middle East by drawing Iran out of its revolutionary shell. And it succeeded. The deal, Leonard says, was a “massive source of pride.”

    As a simple matter of geographical proximity, Europe is threatened by conflict in the Middle East as the United States is not. The tidal wave of asylum-seekers from Syria in 2015 upended European politics and exposed a popular vein of xenophobia and illiberalism that has thrown a terrible scare into European elites. Europe simply cannot afford to follow the American lead if the United States is prepared to sow further chaos in the region.

    Of course, Europe’s old reputation for deference and submission to the United States was reinforced by the spectacle of French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel visiting the White House in the hope of propitiating the First Bully and then being dismissed with scarcely a “by your leave” — and oh, by the way, we’re still coming after your steel industry. But perhaps Europe’s leaders needed the shock. Hours after Trump’s announcement, Macron, Merkel, and British Prime Minister Theresa May issued a joint statement reminding the world that the deal had been “unanimously endorsed by the U.N. Security Council” and thus remained “the binding international legal framework” on Iran’s nuclear program. European Council President Donald Tusk announced that Trump’s Iran and trade policies “will meet a united European approach.”

    The fur will fly if the United States goes ahead with secondary sanctions targeting European companies that continue to do business with Iran. Given the current bellicose mood in Washington, there is good reason to think that it will do so. Hours after assuming his post as U.S. ambassador in Berlin, Richard Grenell tweeted, “German companies doing business in Iran should wind down operations immediately.” That would be Europe’s put-up-or-shut-up moment. “We’re going to have to treat the U.S. as a hostile power,” Leonard (director of the European Council on Foreign Relations) says. “We might have to introduce countermeasures against U.S. companies.” The mind reels. No, the heart breaks.

    Neither side has an incentive to widen the breach. Some major European firms may withdraw from the Iranian market, even as European bankers potentially devise an end run around the U.S. financial system that will blunt the effect of secondary sanctions. Still, a combination of U.S. tariffs and sanctions may provoke the European Union to erect barriers against American products and services in Europe, leading to a trade war between the erstwhile partners.
    I am betting that Bolton will convince Trump to start a war with Iran by 2019 and call on NATO to join him. NATO will refuse, and Trump will use that as pretext to withdraw from the alliance.

    Europe should start seriously considering a future where the US is no longer in NATO and arming itself I think.
    Yeah, I'm sure Congress will go right along with that plan. Especially seeing how well Iraq turned out.

    /s

    Now bad@botes

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