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Thread: USA Politics Thread

  1. #47621
    Keckers's Avatar
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    >American libertarians
    >not absurd

    Good luck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  2. #47622
    Alistair's Avatar
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      Spoiler:


  3. #47623
    Super Baderator DonorGlobal Moderator cullnean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elriche Oshego View Post
    Cullneshi the god of shitposting.

  4. #47624
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Just curious, does this qualify as colluding with a foreign power?

    https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nat...CUL/story.html


  5. #47625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Just curious, does this qualify as colluding with a foreign power?

    https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nat...CUL/story.html
    Nah, he's the worst negotiator Trump has ever seen, so old Tinyhands won't be worried.

  6. #47626
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Just curious, does this qualify as colluding with a foreign power?

    https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nat...CUL/story.html
    It does seem like a violation of the Logan Act.
    Last edited by Nordstern; May 6 2018 at 04:00:28 AM.
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
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  7. #47627

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    From the article.

    Stephen Vladeck, a law professor at the University of Texas, said the law is a red herring — since it’s never been used to prosecute anyone — and almost certainly would not apply to anything Kerry is doing.

    “The act only applies to conduct that is designed to ‘defeat the measures of the United States’ or influence the conduct of foreign governments,” Vladeck said. “If all Kerry is doing is working to keep in place something that’s still technically a ‘measure of the United States,’ I don’t see how the statute would apply even if someone was crazy enough to try it.”
    So that's a no according to this law professor anyway. If he was working on derailing the agreement or you know, promising to lift russian sanctions in exchange for something, he would be in violation of the Logan act.
    Last edited by Spartan Dax; May 6 2018 at 07:18:40 AM.

  8. #47628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post
    From the article.

    Stephen Vladeck, a law professor at the University of Texas, said the law is a red herring — since it’s never been used to prosecute anyone — and almost certainly would not apply to anything Kerry is doing.

    “The act only applies to conduct that is designed to ‘defeat the measures of the United States’ or influence the conduct of foreign governments,” Vladeck said. “If all Kerry is doing is working to keep in place something that’s still technically a ‘measure of the United States,’ I don’t see how the statute would apply even if someone was crazy enough to try it.”
    So that's a no according to this law professor anyway. If he was working on derailing the agreement or you know, promising to lift russian sanctions in exchange for something, he would be in violation of the Logan act.
    Laughable no tbqh.

    The Logan Act (1 Stat. 613, 18 U.S.C. § 953, enacted January 30, 1799) is a United States federal law that forbids unauthorized citizens from negotiating with foreign governments having a dispute with the U.S. It was intended to prevent the undermining of the government's position.
    Kerry is an unauthorized citizen to negotiate, yes. Obviously, yes.

    Iran and the U.S. have a dispute, yes. Obviously yes.

    The current administration has said it s not for keeping the deal as it is, yes. Obviously, yes.

    So yeah, pretty much a textbook Logan Act violation. If you don't look at it with Democrat colored glasses, of course.

    With that said, the "no one has ever been prosecuted for it" is the part that matters. No one has. Same point many tried to make when Trump was being accused of Logan Act violations.

    More importantly, I don't think it would stand up in court if prosecuted. Freedom of Speech is a powerful right, and getting into the details of what the definition of "negotiation" is in this context would be a kicker. Telling a foreign enemy state how to get one over on us isn't really negotiation per se, it's more like consulting.

    I sure do hope that John Kerry has registered as an agent of a foreign government tho, I would hate to see him fall into the Manfort problem down the road.


  9. #47629

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    You do appreciate that the deal has already been negotiated, right? If, after Trump has pulled the USA out, Kerry was seeking to sign the USA up to a new agreement without authorisation, you'd have a point. As it is, Kerry seems to be lobbying both to keep the USA as a signatory while also hoping to convince other signatories to stick with the deal should Trump go through with his threat. I'd suggest trying to look at it without republican glasses, but you're wearing blinkers.

  10. #47630

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post
    From the article.

    Stephen Vladeck, a law professor at the University of Texas, said the law is a red herring — since it’s never been used to prosecute anyone — and almost certainly would not apply to anything Kerry is doing.

    “The act only applies to conduct that is designed to ‘defeat the measures of the United States’ or influence the conduct of foreign governments,” Vladeck said. “If all Kerry is doing is working to keep in place something that’s still technically a ‘measure of the United States,’ I don’t see how the statute would apply even if someone was crazy enough to try it.”
    So that's a no according to this law professor anyway. If he was working on derailing the agreement or you know, promising to lift russian sanctions in exchange for something, he would be in violation of the Logan act.
    Laughable no tbqh.

    The Logan Act (1 Stat. 613, 18 U.S.C. § 953, enacted January 30, 1799) is a United States federal law that forbids unauthorized citizens from negotiating with foreign governments having a dispute with the U.S. It was intended to prevent the undermining of the government's position.
    Kerry is an unauthorized citizen to negotiate, yes. Obviously, yes.

    Iran and the U.S. have a dispute, yes. Obviously yes.

    The current administration has said it s not for keeping the deal as it is, yes. Obviously, yes.

    So yeah, pretty much a textbook Logan Act violation. If you don't look at it with Democrat colored glasses, of course.

    With that said, the "no one has ever been prosecuted for it" is the part that matters. No one has. Same point many tried to make when Trump was being accused of Logan Act violations.

    More importantly, I don't think it would stand up in court if prosecuted. Freedom of Speech is a powerful right, and getting into the details of what the definition of "negotiation" is in this context would be a kicker. Telling a foreign enemy state how to get one over on us isn't really negotiation per se, it's more like consulting.

    I sure do hope that John Kerry has registered as an agent of a foreign government tho, I would hate to see him fall into the Manfort problem down the road.


    Kerry is not "negotiating" anything from what I can tell. The agreement is in place and is thus US policy until the day that changes. Trump says all kinds of things, him being a flip flopper and a lier, so whatever he says means absolutley nothing until it's down on a piece of paper. I don't think he has any credibility and I'm pretty sure you agree with me.


    It's a shame you didn't start with arguing your point immediatly. You're overdoing this whole feigning a question bit when you already have made up your mind and it's getting tedious.
    Last edited by Spartan Dax; May 6 2018 at 08:56:35 PM.

  11. #47631
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    How about hiring foreign operatives to discredit members of the previous administration, simply to justify walking away from the Iran nuke treaty? Probably not illegal, but shady af.

    Aides to Donald Trump, the US president, hired an Israeli private intelligence agency to orchestrate a “dirty ops” campaign against key individuals from the Obama administration who helped negotiate the Iran nuclear deal, the Observer can reveal.

    People in the Trump camp contacted private investigators in May last year to “get dirt” on Ben Rhodes, who had been one of Barack Obama’s top national security advisers, and Colin Kahl, deputy assistant to Obama, as part of an elaborate attempt to discredit the deal.

    The extraordinary revelations come days before Trump’s 12 May deadline to either scrap or continue to abide by the international deal limiting Iran’s nuclear programme.

    Jack Straw, who as foreign secretary was involved in earlier efforts to restrict Iranian weapons, said: “These are extraordinary and appalling allegations but which also illustrate a high level of desperation by Trump and [the Israeli prime minister] Benjamin Netanyahu, not so much to discredit the deal but to undermine those around it.”

    One former high-ranking British diplomat with wide experience of negotiating international peace agreements, requesting anonymity, said: “It’s bloody outrageous to do this. The whole point of negotiations is to not play dirty tricks like this.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...n-nuclear-deal
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  12. #47632
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jori McKie View Post
    Personally i do not care about collusion
    Wait what? You dont care that the cornerstone of democracy has been subverted or not and you'd rather just ignore that for your own purpose?

    The absolute most important question in this whole mess of a situation is did anyone collude with a foreign government to meddle in the election. End of story. There is no such thing as a 'free and fair' election when another country starts to mess around with it, and inviting them to do so is possibly the worst thing a person could do for the people. This goes for ALL election meddling (something the US has no issue with when its other countries and they are doing the meddling).

    "I want to get rid of trump" is not a good enough excuse. If he didn't collude then he won the election and you don't get to get rid of him because he won properly and that's how democracy works. If he colluded then he should spend the rest of his life locked up in maximum security. There is no middle ground here, he either colluded and has sold the country out, or he didn't in which case he won the election and is your president.
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  13. #47633

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jori McKie View Post
    Personally i do not care about collusion
    Wait what? You dont care that the cornerstone of democracy has been subverted or not and you'd rather just ignore that for your own purpose?

    The absolute most important question in this whole mess of a situation is did anyone collude with a foreign government to meddle in the election. End of story. There is no such thing as a 'free and fair' election when another country starts to mess around with it, and inviting them to do so is possibly the worst thing a person could do for the people. This goes for ALL election meddling (something the US has no issue with when its other countries and they are doing the meddling).

    "I want to get rid of trump" is not a good enough excuse. If he didn't collude then he won the election and you don't get to get rid of him because he won properly and that's how democracy works. If he colluded then he should spend the rest of his life locked up in maximum security. There is no middle ground here, he either colluded and has sold the country out, or he didn't in which case he won the election and is your president.
    I mean, we can want to get rid of him for being a money-laundering women-groping scumbag even if he somehow didn't collude with the Russians despite damned near every member of his campaign having contact with them at one point or another.
    Totally not Victoria Stecker forgetting his password and not having access to his work email.

  14. #47634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jori McKie View Post
    Personally i do not care about collusion
    Wait what? You dont care that the cornerstone of democracy has been subverted or not and you'd rather just ignore that for your own purpose?

    The absolute most important question in this whole mess of a situation is did anyone collude with a foreign government to meddle in the election. End of story. There is no such thing as a 'free and fair' election when another country starts to mess around with it, and inviting them to do so is possibly the worst thing a person could do for the people. This goes for ALL election meddling (something the US has no issue with when its other countries and they are doing the meddling).

    "I want to get rid of trump" is not a good enough excuse. If he didn't collude then he won the election and you don't get to get rid of him because he won properly and that's how democracy works. If he colluded then he should spend the rest of his life locked up in maximum security. There is no middle ground here, he either colluded and has sold the country out, or he didn't in which case he won the election and is your president.
    I mean, we can want to get rid of him for being a money-laundering women-groping scumbag even if he somehow didn't collude with the Russians despite damned near every member of his campaign having contact with them at one point or another.
    Money-laundering yes. The other one not so much.. Unless he lied to congress about it (or it gets counted as a campaign payment he didn't declare, which I'm not really following). I mean you can WANT to get rid of him for any reason at all, but that stuff was bought up during the election and didn't seem to make any difference so apparently its acceptable to enough people (and not illegal).
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  15. #47635
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jori McKie View Post
    Personally i do not care about collusion
    Wait what? You dont care that the cornerstone of democracy has been subverted or not and you'd rather just ignore that for your own purpose?
    Thats a common talking point among the lefties who are critical of the west. Since we have a history of subverting other democracies, we shouldn't be upset when it happens to us.

    This of course ignores the revolutionary idea that its possible to be opposed to both.

  16. #47636

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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    This of course ignores the revolutionary idea that its possible to be opposed to both.
    Impossible. You are a madman.

  17. #47637
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jori McKie View Post
    Personally i do not care about collusion
    Wait what? You dont care that the cornerstone of democracy has been subverted or not and you'd rather just ignore that for your own purpose?
    Thats a common talking point among the lefties who are critical of the west. Since we have a history of subverting other democracies, we shouldn't be upset when it happens to us.

    This of course ignores the revolutionary idea that its possible to be opposed to both.
    Or the realist idea that do unto others so you don't get done unto. For all the reasons that interfering in foreign elections can be of value to the US; having their elections interfered with is bad for the US. Sure it's hypocritical to be upset for moral reasons if your OK with the US's history: but it's not hypocritical to be upset for practical reasons.

  18. #47638
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    personally, I think it's at worst impolite for other countries to meddle in the affairs of the US.

    But if you're the US citizen helping foreign powers do their meddling, be prepared for the rest of the country to smack you around a bit for it.
    Contract stuff to Seraphina Amaranth.

    "You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say - of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position. Ever."


  19. #47639
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jori McKie View Post
    Personally i do not care about collusion
    Wait what? You dont care that the cornerstone of democracy has been subverted or not and you'd rather just ignore that for your own purpose?

    The absolute most important question in this whole mess of a situation is did anyone collude with a foreign government to meddle in the election. End of story. There is no such thing as a 'free and fair' election when another country starts to mess around with it, and inviting them to do so is possibly the worst thing a person could do for the people. This goes for ALL election meddling (something the US has no issue with when its other countries and they are doing the meddling).

    "I want to get rid of trump" is not a good enough excuse. If he didn't collude then he won the election and you don't get to get rid of him because he won properly and that's how democracy works. If he colluded then he should spend the rest of his life locked up in maximum security. There is no middle ground here, he either colluded and has sold the country out, or he didn't in which case he won the election and is your president.

    I don't doubt that the Orange and his folks colluded in one way or another with the russians but i doubt there will enough actionable proof to get rid of him via impeachment or court. That's why i don't care about it and because it is a major talking point for the Trumpians. In a way they use it to distract from all other potential crimes like money laundering, tax fraud and illegal campaign contribution.

    Free elections are the cornerstone of democracy and hidden or obvious propaganda to influence people isn't exclusive to foreign countries. I don't know what is worse if it is done by native politicians or a foreign country and the Orange is the best example for it. If people can't see behind it native or foreign induced, well something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

    To quote from one of my favourite books
    “Does a population have informed consent when that population is not taught the inner workings of its monetary system, and then is drawn, all unknowing, into economic adventures?”
    ― Frank Herbert, The Dosadi Experiment

  20. #47640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post


    It's a shame you didn't start with arguing your point immediatly. You're overdoing this whole feigning a question bit when you already have made up your mind and it's getting tedious.
    This, tbqf. It's a bit tiresome.
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