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Thread: USA Politics Thread

  1. #51221
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    now put up the projected demand graph for meeting a western standard of living for every individual on the planet.

    edit : actually, you'd need a fucking microscope to read that graph, let's go with projected energy demand globally.



    and that right there people, is why we're still basically stuck on somewhere between RCP8.5 and RCP6.0, at best.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleoc...hermal_Maximum

    I'd say it behooves us to prepare for essentially a full-melt scenario. That doesn't mean we don't curb emissions, however, because there are obviously scenarios worse than full-melt.

    Also... that nuclear curve needs to do a hockey-stick.

    As for whether market forces will get us on a path to not using carbon for energy...

    https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...w-math-188550/

    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...is-study-warns

    All that unextracted oil, that we can't afford to burn, is a financialized asset for the oil industry and for many governments. Asking them to write it off as a loss is not something markets are really keen to do.

    Of course that write-off will be cheap compared to the cost of actually adapting to and surviving the next 250 years of climate change.
    There's other commerically useful things you can do with oil than burn it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  2. #51222
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...

  3. #51223
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    That might be a bit of a stretch given that the inspectors general's report on her email server came out in the end of May, and it was public knowledge that the servers had been wiped since the prior September.

    I donno, I personally wouldn't regard any circumstantial evidence as 'the best'

  4. #51224
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    So a quick question on election law esp. re: the meeting with a Russian lawyer to get dirt on Clinton

    Something I honestly don't understand.....

    I've heard reported (alot) that if any Trump Campaign person with with a foreign national (like the Russian Lawyer) and got anything of value from them (like dirt), that is an election law violation because you can't get donations (i.e.) help from foreign nationals during elections.

    Ok, got it.

    But the Republicans, and then the Clinton Campaign, hired Fusion GPS to get dirt on Trump. Ok, domestic company, fine. Fusion then hired a foreign national (Steele) to go to Russia (and elsewhere) and to work with Russians (i.e. Foreign Nationals) to get dirt on Trump. And this is it seems 100% legal.

    Does this seem a thin difference when it comes to getting help from foreign nationals?

    Help me understand the difference? Is it literally just that the campaign has a domestic middle man (in this case Fusion) to go pay off foreign nationals and troll for dirt? But in Trump's case because it was direct, no middle person, regardless of paying or not it's illegal?

    And yes, while this may elicit the usual "What About Screeeee!" replies, I'm honestly confused as to the legal differences here and was hoping someone who knows alot more about election law can lay it strait for me.


  5. #51225
    מלך יהודים Zeekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    ideally you'd want those running when you've got a surplus of energy available from renewable sources, i would argue for a "usage hierarchy" That goes domestic consumption > light industry/commercial consumption > heavy industry consumption, however some industrial processes, specifically stuff dealing in metals aren't really something you can just shut down and start up in a couple of hours, any sort of sane power-grid relies on nuclear plants for base load and come with a heavy focus on renewable sources.

    waste products can, generally speaking, be managed and often recycled successfully and it's actually something European industry has gotten really good at the last 20 or so years from my understanding, beyond that it's often possible to exploit said waste products, waste heat from this place basically provide around half the city's central heating.
    Good plan if you want to kill any sort of modern industry.
    with unstable grid due to the prevaliance of wind and solar power, and the infeasibility of grid scale electricity storage, would you rather reverse that prioritization ?

    moreover, the point is to scale industry to meet demand, not maximize production and create demand via advertising.
    As soon as you mention unstable grid your solution is useless. Electrical power needs to be reliable. Period.

    Industry already scales to demand (example auto industry as soon as a recession hits) so you need to take care of that side of the equation. I have a feeling you never worked in actual manufacturing industry.


    

  6. #51226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    now put up the projected demand graph for meeting a western standard of living for every individual on the planet.

    edit : actually, you'd need a fucking microscope to read that graph, let's go with projected energy demand globally.



    and that right there people, is why we're still basically stuck on somewhere between RCP8.5 and RCP6.0, at best.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleoc...hermal_Maximum

    I'd say it behooves us to prepare for essentially a full-melt scenario. That doesn't mean we don't curb emissions, however, because there are obviously scenarios worse than full-melt.

    Also... that nuclear curve needs to do a hockey-stick.

    As for whether market forces will get us on a path to not using carbon for energy...

    https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...w-math-188550/

    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...is-study-warns

    All that unextracted oil, that we can't afford to burn, is a financialized asset for the oil industry and for many governments. Asking them to write it off as a loss is not something markets are really keen to do.

    Of course that write-off will be cheap compared to the cost of actually adapting to and surviving the next 250 years of climate change.
    There's other commerically useful things you can do with oil than burn it.
    Duh. I expect that we'll be making plastics and lubricants from petroleum for centuries. But that's a small fraction of the total demand for oil, and as such, a "no burn" situation would still result in massive devaluation of existing reserves due to decreased demand.

  7. #51227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    now put up the projected demand graph for meeting a western standard of living for every individual on the planet.

    edit : actually, you'd need a fucking microscope to read that graph, let's go with projected energy demand globally.



    and that right there people, is why we're still basically stuck on somewhere between RCP8.5 and RCP6.0, at best.
    Is a british thermal unit the amount of heat generated from burning 1 british citizen?

  8. #51228
    Donor lubica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    So a quick question on election law esp. re: the meeting with a Russian lawyer to get dirt on Clinton

    Something I honestly don't understand.....

    I've heard reported (alot) that if any Trump Campaign person with with a foreign national (like the Russian Lawyer) and got anything of value from them (like dirt), that is an election law violation because you can't get donations (i.e.) help from foreign nationals during elections.

    Ok, got it.

    But the Republicans, and then the Clinton Campaign, hired Fusion GPS to get dirt on Trump. Ok, domestic company, fine. Fusion then hired a foreign national (Steele) to go to Russia (and elsewhere) and to work with Russians (i.e. Foreign Nationals) to get dirt on Trump. And this is it seems 100% legal.

    Does this seem a thin difference when it comes to getting help from foreign nationals?

    Help me understand the difference? Is it literally just that the campaign has a domestic middle man (in this case Fusion) to go pay off foreign nationals and troll for dirt? But in Trump's case because it was direct, no middle person, regardless of paying or not it's illegal?

    And yes, while this may elicit the usual "What About Screeeee!" replies, I'm honestly confused as to the legal differences here and was hoping someone who knows alot more about election law can lay it strait for me.
    The big difference there, is that the Trump campaign talked directly with the Russians in the Trump Tower, while the Dems never knew about where Fusion GPS got their information from, until much later, well after the elections. That is neither cooperation, conspiracy, collusion, or even solicitation of 'help' from a foreign entity. And Steele was not the only source for Fusion GPS's oposition research, either, but as far as anyone knows, he was the only foreign source (and still from an allied nation, not an adversary).


    Quote Originally Posted by Narmio
    Welcome to Dwarf Fortress, where there is a fine line between insanity and gameplay. The line menaces with spikes of obsessive compulsion.

  9. #51229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenta View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    now put up the projected demand graph for meeting a western standard of living for every individual on the planet.

    edit : actually, you'd need a fucking microscope to read that graph, let's go with projected energy demand globally.



    and that right there people, is why we're still basically stuck on somewhere between RCP8.5 and RCP6.0, at best.
    Is a british thermal unit the amount of heat generated from burning 1 british citizen?
    The crematorium in my home town is hooked up to the district heating, so why not.
      Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    But islamism IS a product of class warfare. Rich white countries come into developing brown dictatorships, wreck the leadership, infrastructure and economy and then act all surprised that religious fanaticism is on the rise.
    Also:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenta View Post
    walrus isnt a bad poster.
    Quote Originally Posted by cullnean View Post
    also i like walrus.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmaNutin View Post
    Yer a hoot

  10. #51230

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    SPACE FORCE!


  11. #51231
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    SPACE FORCE!

    The one on the middle right looks like an App icon.
    meh

  12. #51232
    Movember 2012 Elriche Oshego's Avatar
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    We all know what the actual insignia will be....

      Spoiler:

  13. #51233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenta View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    now put up the projected demand graph for meeting a western standard of living for every individual on the planet.

    edit : actually, you'd need a fucking microscope to read that graph, let's go with projected energy demand globally.



    and that right there people, is why we're still basically stuck on somewhere between RCP8.5 and RCP6.0, at best.
    Is a british thermal unit the amount of heat generated from burning 1 british citizen?
    I think it's the energy require to heat a kettle for one cup of tea

    Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Tapatalk

  14. #51234
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    SPACE FORCE!

    The one on the middle right looks like an App icon.
    Will probably win then.

    Is your infrastructure crumbling? Is your national debt spiraling out of control? Is there an election coming? SPACE FORCE will fix it!
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  15. #51235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    ideally you'd want those running when you've got a surplus of energy available from renewable sources, i would argue for a "usage hierarchy" That goes domestic consumption > light industry/commercial consumption > heavy industry consumption, however some industrial processes, specifically stuff dealing in metals aren't really something you can just shut down and start up in a couple of hours, any sort of sane power-grid relies on nuclear plants for base load and come with a heavy focus on renewable sources.

    waste products can, generally speaking, be managed and often recycled successfully and it's actually something European industry has gotten really good at the last 20 or so years from my understanding, beyond that it's often possible to exploit said waste products, waste heat from this place basically provide around half the city's central heating.
    Good plan if you want to kill any sort of modern industry.
    with unstable grid due to the prevaliance of wind and solar power, and the infeasibility of grid scale electricity storage, would you rather reverse that prioritization ?

    moreover, the point is to scale industry to meet demand, not maximize production and create demand via advertising.
    As soon as you mention unstable grid your solution is useless. Electrical power needs to be reliable. Period.

    Industry already scales to demand (example auto industry as soon as a recession hits) so you need to take care of that side of the equation. I have a feeling you never worked in actual manufacturing industry.
    the reality is we're never going to be able to create sufficient nuclear capacity to carry the whole load, the plants and their associated risks, be they real or imagined ensures that, this means a significant amount of generation has to come from wind, solar and wave energy, it also means a more flexible grid is going to be needed, it's already a integral part of the ongoing "smart grid" developments where the various consumers are getting the option of cost-based cut-off points.

    considering the massive unpopularity of nuclear, and it being the only non-carbon base load option, coupled with it's quite frankly impressive construction costs it doesn't take much imagination to see situations where demand outstrip supply.

    also, have you all heard about the new insurance provider called "gofundme" ?
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  16. #51236
    מלך יהודים Zeekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    ideally you'd want those running when you've got a surplus of energy available from renewable sources, i would argue for a "usage hierarchy" That goes domestic consumption > light industry/commercial consumption > heavy industry consumption, however some industrial processes, specifically stuff dealing in metals aren't really something you can just shut down and start up in a couple of hours, any sort of sane power-grid relies on nuclear plants for base load and come with a heavy focus on renewable sources.

    waste products can, generally speaking, be managed and often recycled successfully and it's actually something European industry has gotten really good at the last 20 or so years from my understanding, beyond that it's often possible to exploit said waste products, waste heat from this place basically provide around half the city's central heating.
    Good plan if you want to kill any sort of modern industry.
    with unstable grid due to the prevaliance of wind and solar power, and the infeasibility of grid scale electricity storage, would you rather reverse that prioritization ?

    moreover, the point is to scale industry to meet demand, not maximize production and create demand via advertising.
    As soon as you mention unstable grid your solution is useless. Electrical power needs to be reliable. Period.

    Industry already scales to demand (example auto industry as soon as a recession hits) so you need to take care of that side of the equation. I have a feeling you never worked in actual manufacturing industry.
    the reality is we're never going to be able to create sufficient nuclear capacity to carry the whole load, the plants and their associated risks, be they real or imagined ensures that, this means a significant amount of generation has to come from wind, solar and wave energy, it also means a more flexible grid is going to be needed, it's already a integral part of the ongoing "smart grid" developments where the various consumers are getting the option of cost-based cut-off points.

    considering the massive unpopularity of nuclear, and it being the only non-carbon base load option, coupled with it's quite frankly impressive construction costs it doesn't take much imagination to see situations where demand outstrip supply.

    also, have you all heard about the new insurance provider called "gofundme" ?
    Then we will have to find ways of storing massive amounts of energy to compensate or find a way of capturing emissions from natural gas / coal power plants. Unreliable power generation is not an option. Forget it. It's probably the fastest way to be put against the wall.


    

  17. #51237
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    I know Denmark is flat Liare, but there's something called "Hydroelectricity" which is a base load no carbon option.

    See also: pumped hydro
      Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    But islamism IS a product of class warfare. Rich white countries come into developing brown dictatorships, wreck the leadership, infrastructure and economy and then act all surprised that religious fanaticism is on the rise.
    Also:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenta View Post
    walrus isnt a bad poster.
    Quote Originally Posted by cullnean View Post
    also i like walrus.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmaNutin View Post
    Yer a hoot

  18. #51238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    Then we will have to find ways of storing massive amounts of energy to compensate or find a way of capturing emissions from natural gas / coal power plants. Unreliable power generation is not an option. Forget it. It's probably the fastest way to be put against the wall.
    variable production is already a thing in a number of countries Zeekar, a degree of balancing is done via import/export of power within Europe but the reality is that we've either gotta keep burning coal and gas for perpetuity thereby ensuring the eventual ecological collapse, hope for wundertech like Fusion to actually pan out or accept that we're going to lack the power production capacity to meet all demand on occasion.

    with that in mind, you've gotta pick who wins and who loses when there's fuck all wind in the middle of winter.

    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    I know Denmark is flat Liare, but there's something called "Hydroelectricity" which is a base load no carbon option.
    the amount of places left where you can usefully put up dams in Europe is rather limited, to say nothing of the resulting ecological damage.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  19. #51239
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Maybe we shouldn't let people live where it's too cold to survive winter without artificial heating?
    meh

  20. #51240
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Maybe we shouldn't let people live where it's too cold to survive winter without artificial heating?
    Are you going to apply that to people who live where it's too hot to survive summer without artificial cooling?

    Because we're going to rapidly run out of places to live in the next century if you do that (and even if you don't)

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