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Thread: USA Politics Thread

  1. #49101
    jimmychrist's Avatar
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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armageddon is not an event, but a place. The more you know!

    Also some internet funnyman has added Dagor Dagorlath to that wiki article, well jokes on him because internet funnymen are surely destined for eternal damnation in the hellfire.

  2. #49102
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    You’re telling me that you don’t see the possibility of a large scale war, given the current geopolitical state of play?

    I mean if I had to take a guess, Trump and Co. want to quiet down the pacific theatre so they can engage in a little Crassus LARP and go adventuring in Persia. Then there’s that whole raging christian fundamentalist apocalypse cult that thinks a huge war in the Middle East is necessary to get Jesus to come back.

    I don’t know if that escalates into a general global war, if that happens, but with our government alienating all of our allies, I can see things getting uglier than they would have a decade ago.

    Shit’s a tinderbox, mate.

    And that doesn’t even get into the possibility of a generation-killing period of civil unrest or authoritarian rule within the United States, or western nations more broadly.
    So if I'm reading this correctly, you see an high immediate risk of a U.S. vs. Iran war, clearly dragging in the rest of the Middle East, and thus potentially dragging in the World (which, you seem to indicate, may fight against the U.S. because we've alienated them)?

    A war, I presume, you felt was previously off the table due to the Obama Iran Nuclear Executive Action.

    So U.S./Israel/Saudi vs. Iran/Syria/Other Arab Nations/Maybe Russia/Maybe the EU then?

    And beyond that you see a high immediate risk of a "Fully Fascist U.S." to use convenient shorthand, i.e. dictator-led, authoritarian. militaristic-expansionist and engaging in mass killings of U.S. citizen protesters/insurgents?

    Is that a correct reading of your fears?


  3. #49103
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    It's more about how much all these low intensity conflicts will escalate in the near future.

  4. #49104
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    raging christian fundamentalist apocalypse cult that thinks a huge war in the Middle East is necessary to get Jesus to come back
    wait, what?
    You don’t know about this?

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.haa...eech-1.5628081

    This is not a fringe belief system, and the concept of the rapture is central to mainstream evangelicalism.



    It’s the belief system of Trump’s base.
    Last edited by Lachesis VII; June 12 2018 at 06:17:35 PM. Reason: Fixed link

  5. #49105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    You’re telling me that you don’t see the possibility of a large scale war, given the current geopolitical state of play?

    I mean if I had to take a guess, Trump and Co. want to quiet down the pacific theatre so they can engage in a little Crassus LARP and go adventuring in Persia. Then there’s that whole raging christian fundamentalist apocalypse cult that thinks a huge war in the Middle East is necessary to get Jesus to come back.

    I don’t know if that escalates into a general global war, if that happens, but with our government alienating all of our allies, I can see things getting uglier than they would have a decade ago.

    Shit’s a tinderbox, mate.

    And that doesn’t even get into the possibility of a generation-killing period of civil unrest or authoritarian rule within the United States, or western nations more broadly.
    So if I'm reading this correctly, you see an high immediate risk of a U.S. vs. Iran war, clearly dragging in the rest of the Middle East, and thus potentially dragging in the World (which, you seem to indicate, may fight against the U.S. because we've alienated them)?

    A war, I presume, you felt was previously off the table due to the Obama Iran Nuclear Executive Action.

    So U.S./Israel/Saudi vs. Iran/Syria/Other Arab Nations/Maybe Russia/Maybe the EU then?

    And beyond that you see a high immediate risk of a "Fully Fascist U.S." to use convenient shorthand, i.e. dictator-led, authoritarian. militaristic-expansionist and engaging in mass killings of U.S. citizen protesters/insurgents?

    Is that a correct reading of your fears?
    I’d say my fear of these things is moderate, not high. Things are destabilizing, presumably prior to the emergence of some future stable arrangement different than the one that existed in 2016. This is not unusual, it’s just history. Happens all the time, and seems to happen fairly periodically. But these periods, if you study history, seem to come with an elevated risk of violent upheaval.

    We always talk about wars that changed the world order, but really, the world order was changing before there was a war. That’s why the war in question happened in the first place.

    Today, the world order is changing and shifting. I think a bit of alarm is warranted, and healthy.

    As for the specifics of the upheaval? If things were to go south, those are two ways in which I think we are at risk of it going. There are others, but you asked for an example so I gave you one.
    Last edited by Lachesis VII; June 12 2018 at 06:15:17 PM.

  6. #49106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    raging christian fundamentalist apocalypse cult that thinks a huge war in the Middle East is necessary to get Jesus to come back
    wait, what?
    You don’t know about this?

    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...eech-1.5628081

    This is not a fringe belief system, and the concept of the rapture is central to mainstream evangelicalism.



    It’s the belief system of Trump’s base.
    wtf is up with Utah ? is that because the local nutters are mormons or something ?
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  7. #49107
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    raging christian fundamentalist apocalypse cult that thinks a huge war in the Middle East is necessary to get Jesus to come back
    wait, what?
    You don’t know about this?

    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...eech-1.5628081

    This is not a fringe belief system, and the concept of the rapture is central to mainstream evangelicalism.



    It’s the belief system of Trump’s base.
    wtf is up with Utah ? is that because the local nutters are mormons or something ?
    Mormons and evangelicals have a long and mostly violent (1800’s) history.
    meh

  8. #49108
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    raging christian fundamentalist apocalypse cult that thinks a huge war in the Middle East is necessary to get Jesus to come back
    wait, what?
    You don’t know about this?

    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...eech-1.5628081

    This is not a fringe belief system, and the concept of the rapture is central to mainstream evangelicalism.



    It’s the belief system of Trump’s base.
    wtf is up with Utah ? is that because the local nutters are mormons or something ?
    Yes.
    nevar forget

  9. #49109
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    You’re telling me that you don’t see the possibility of a large scale war, given the current geopolitical state of play?

    I mean if I had to take a guess, Trump and Co. want to quiet down the pacific theatre so they can engage in a little Crassus LARP and go adventuring in Persia. Then there’s that whole raging christian fundamentalist apocalypse cult that thinks a huge war in the Middle East is necessary to get Jesus to come back.

    I don’t know if that escalates into a general global war, if that happens, but with our government alienating all of our allies, I can see things getting uglier than they would have a decade ago.

    Shit’s a tinderbox, mate.

    And that doesn’t even get into the possibility of a generation-killing period of civil unrest or authoritarian rule within the United States, or western nations more broadly.
    So if I'm reading this correctly, you see an high immediate risk of a U.S. vs. Iran war, clearly dragging in the rest of the Middle East, and thus potentially dragging in the World (which, you seem to indicate, may fight against the U.S. because we've alienated them)?

    A war, I presume, you felt was previously off the table due to the Obama Iran Nuclear Executive Action.

    So U.S./Israel/Saudi vs. Iran/Syria/Other Arab Nations/Maybe Russia/Maybe the EU then?

    And beyond that you see a high immediate risk of a "Fully Fascist U.S." to use convenient shorthand, i.e. dictator-led, authoritarian. militaristic-expansionist and engaging in mass killings of U.S. citizen protesters/insurgents?

    Is that a correct reading of your fears?
    I’d say my fear of these things is moderate, not high.
    A fair clarification, thank you.

    Things are destabilizing, presumably prior to the emergence of some future stable arrangement different than the one that existed in 2016. This is not unusual, it’s just history. Happens all the time, and seems to happen fairly periodically. But these periods, if you study history, seem to come with an elevated risk of violent upheaval.

    We always talk about wars that changed the world order, but really, the world order was changing before there was a war. That’s why the war in question happened in the first place.

    Today, the world order is changing and shifting. I think a bit of alarm is warranted, and healthy.

    As for the specifics of the upheaval? If things were to go south, those are two ways in which I think we are at risk of it going.
    I would hesitate to extrapolate the Trump Presidency with a larger/longer trend. A Democrat win in the next Presidential election and the entire "the world is changing" idea becomes moot.

    I don't see the World as a whole more "destabilized" today than at previous periods, and materially less so in some places. There is close to no risk for a broad European War today, despite Russian sabre-rattling round the edges. There is close to no risk of an Asian War today (NK nonwithstanding). There is no Russia/U.S. Cold War like the 80's, albeit it is once again heating up in the shadows. The Middle East is the Middle East, but ISIS isn't doing well, Israel and some of her neighbors are doing ok, but the risk of the Saudi-Side vs. the Iran-Side is legit I'd agree. But that internecine conflict is not new at all.

    China is on the rise, as is the EU, India and Brazil. The US in the decline, albeit it's almost assuredly going to be a long slow decline to start (economically we're generally fine).

    Where I see the greatest risk is internal conflict in the U.S. A divide that continues to fester and grow wider potentially leading to violence. And once real, political violence begins between right & left anything can happen.

    But honestly, outside the Middle East being what it's always been, I don't see a higher risk today than say, the mid-80's. Especially if Trump is beaten in 2020 (as I think it safe to say we all here hope).

    There are others, but you asked for an example so I gave you one.
    I did, and I thank you.


  10. #49110
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    love how you managed to slot a "BOTH SIDES" dig into all of that

    also you might want to have a closer look at Brazil if you consider them "up and coming"

  11. #49111
    Super Chillerator Global Moderator teds :D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    You’re telling me that you don’t see the possibility of a large scale war, given the current geopolitical state of play?

    I mean if I had to take a guess, Trump and Co. want to quiet down the pacific theatre so they can engage in a little Crassus LARP and go adventuring in Persia. Then there’s that whole raging christian fundamentalist apocalypse cult that thinks a huge war in the Middle East is necessary to get Jesus to come back.

    I don’t know if that escalates into a general global war, if that happens, but with our government alienating all of our allies, I can see things getting uglier than they would have a decade ago.

    Shit’s a tinderbox, mate.

    And that doesn’t even get into the possibility of a generation-killing period of civil unrest or authoritarian rule within the United States, or western nations more broadly.
    So if I'm reading this correctly, you see an high immediate risk of a U.S. vs. Iran war, clearly dragging in the rest of the Middle East, and thus potentially dragging in the World (which, you seem to indicate, may fight against the U.S. because we've alienated them)?

    A war, I presume, you felt was previously off the table due to the Obama Iran Nuclear Executive Action.

    So U.S./Israel/Saudi vs. Iran/Syria/Other Arab Nations/Maybe Russia/Maybe the EU then?

    And beyond that you see a high immediate risk of a "Fully Fascist U.S." to use convenient shorthand, i.e. dictator-led, authoritarian. militaristic-expansionist and engaging in mass killings of U.S. citizen protesters/insurgents?

    Is that a correct reading of your fears?
    I’d say my fear of these things is moderate, not high.
    A fair clarification, thank you.

    Things are destabilizing, presumably prior to the emergence of some future stable arrangement different than the one that existed in 2016. This is not unusual, it’s just history. Happens all the time, and seems to happen fairly periodically. But these periods, if you study history, seem to come with an elevated risk of violent upheaval.

    We always talk about wars that changed the world order, but really, the world order was changing before there was a war. That’s why the war in question happened in the first place.

    Today, the world order is changing and shifting. I think a bit of alarm is warranted, and healthy.

    As for the specifics of the upheaval? If things were to go south, those are two ways in which I think we are at risk of it going.
    I would hesitate to extrapolate the Trump Presidency with a larger/longer trend. A Democrat win in the next Presidential election and the entire "the world is changing" idea becomes moot.

    I don't see the World as a whole more "destabilized" today than at previous periods, and materially less so in some places. There is close to no risk for a broad European War today, despite Russian sabre-rattling round the edges. There is close to no risk of an Asian War today (NK nonwithstanding). There is no Russia/U.S. Cold War like the 80's, albeit it is once again heating up in the shadows. The Middle East is the Middle East, but ISIS isn't doing well, Israel and some of her neighbors are doing ok, but the risk of the Saudi-Side vs. the Iran-Side is legit I'd agree. But that internecine conflict is not new at all.

    China is on the rise, as is the EU, India and Brazil. The US in the decline, albeit it's almost assuredly going to be a long slow decline to start (economically we're generally fine).

    Where I see the greatest risk is internal conflict in the U.S. A divide that continues to fester and grow wider potentially leading to violence. And once real, political violence begins between right & left anything can happen.

    But honestly, outside the Middle East being what it's always been, I don't see a higher risk today than say, the mid-80's. Especially if Trump is beaten in 2020 (as I think it safe to say we all here hope).

    There are others, but you asked for an example so I gave you one.
    I did, and I thank you.
    a good write up, until your last few lines about potential civil war in the US - it won't happen anytime soon. people love to complain about politics and the economy and so on, but there's a large step from that to shooting your neighbour.

  12. #49112
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    You’re telling me that you don’t see the possibility of a large scale war, given the current geopolitical state of play?

    I mean if I had to take a guess, Trump and Co. want to quiet down the pacific theatre so they can engage in a little Crassus LARP and go adventuring in Persia. Then there’s that whole raging christian fundamentalist apocalypse cult that thinks a huge war in the Middle East is necessary to get Jesus to come back.

    I don’t know if that escalates into a general global war, if that happens, but with our government alienating all of our allies, I can see things getting uglier than they would have a decade ago.

    Shit’s a tinderbox, mate.

    And that doesn’t even get into the possibility of a generation-killing period of civil unrest or authoritarian rule within the United States, or western nations more broadly.
    So if I'm reading this correctly, you see an high immediate risk of a U.S. vs. Iran war, clearly dragging in the rest of the Middle East, and thus potentially dragging in the World (which, you seem to indicate, may fight against the U.S. because we've alienated them)?

    A war, I presume, you felt was previously off the table due to the Obama Iran Nuclear Executive Action.

    So U.S./Israel/Saudi vs. Iran/Syria/Other Arab Nations/Maybe Russia/Maybe the EU then?

    And beyond that you see a high immediate risk of a "Fully Fascist U.S." to use convenient shorthand, i.e. dictator-led, authoritarian. militaristic-expansionist and engaging in mass killings of U.S. citizen protesters/insurgents?

    Is that a correct reading of your fears?
    I’d say my fear of these things is moderate, not high.
    A fair clarification, thank you.

    Things are destabilizing, presumably prior to the emergence of some future stable arrangement different than the one that existed in 2016. This is not unusual, it’s just history. Happens all the time, and seems to happen fairly periodically. But these periods, if you study history, seem to come with an elevated risk of violent upheaval.

    We always talk about wars that changed the world order, but really, the world order was changing before there was a war. That’s why the war in question happened in the first place.

    Today, the world order is changing and shifting. I think a bit of alarm is warranted, and healthy.

    As for the specifics of the upheaval? If things were to go south, those are two ways in which I think we are at risk of it going.
    I would hesitate to extrapolate the Trump Presidency with a larger/longer trend. A Democrat win in the next Presidential election and the entire "the world is changing" idea becomes moot.

    I don't see the World as a whole more "destabilized" today than at previous periods, and materially less so in some places. There is close to no risk for a broad European War today, despite Russian sabre-rattling round the edges. There is close to no risk of an Asian War today (NK nonwithstanding). There is no Russia/U.S. Cold War like the 80's, albeit it is once again heating up in the shadows. The Middle East is the Middle East, but ISIS isn't doing well, Israel and some of her neighbors are doing ok, but the risk of the Saudi-Side vs. the Iran-Side is legit I'd agree. But that internecine conflict is not new at all.

    China is on the rise, as is the EU, India and Brazil. The US in the decline, albeit it's almost assuredly going to be a long slow decline to start (economically we're generally fine).

    Where I see the greatest risk is internal conflict in the U.S. A divide that continues to fester and grow wider potentially leading to violence. And once real, political violence begins between right & left anything can happen.

    But honestly, outside the Middle East being what it's always been, I don't see a higher risk today than say, the mid-80's. Especially if Trump is beaten in 2020 (as I think it safe to say we all here hope).

    There are others, but you asked for an example so I gave you one.
    I did, and I thank you.
    a good write up, until your last few lines about potential civil war in the US - it won't happen anytime soon. people love to complain about politics and the economy and so on, but there's a large step from that to shooting your neighbour.
    I agree, it's not an immediate risk.

    Affluence and comfort ensure that. We're seriously rich here, seriously comfortable in the vast majority. Relative terms, still sucks to be poor, etc etc etc.

    But if the U.S. were to suffer a lengthy economic downturn, things could change here rather quickly and help propagate a shift in political opposition to political violence. It takes remarkably little to turn even civilized people violent (see reaction to 9/11 for an example) and less civilized.

    A high-profile assassination or two, who knows what could happen. Again, I agree, the economic affluence here is a strong limiting factor to open political violence. But the further apart we grow here, the less each side sees the other as fully human, the more they demonize each other, the easier that shift to violence can come.

    Call it a 50 year risk, not a 5 year risk.


  13. #49113
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    I don’t think a civil war is likely, no.

    I think an insurrection, coup, or revolution is possible, however (in order of decreasing liklihood). That sometimes means widespread violence, sometimes it doesn’t.

    Our nation exhibits all the symptoms of a pre-revolutionary society. It shows a majority of the signs of a fascist society. And it meets plenty of the criteria for a society at risk of genocide. Again, a bit of alarm is healthy.

  14. #49114
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    raging christian fundamentalist apocalypse cult that thinks a huge war in the Middle East is necessary to get Jesus to come back
    wait, what?
    In order for Jesus to come and take them away in his space ship, Revelations must literally come true, meaning the seven seals and all that shit. Literally the apocolypse, or Jesus ainít coming back. This is also the reason they don't care about pollution/climate change, etc. no point saving the planet when you want it destroyed so your end times cult can rapture...
    c, this is a common belief in nutjob circles

    Some of them want to hasten global warming, war, disease, famine, etc. precisely because these are the events that precede the end times. If they don't happen, Jesus won't come back, and these people want to see Jesus in person before they die.

    This delusion hinges on the idea that God will not punish them for despoiling His creation, and instead reward them for their faith...
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...

  15. #49115
    Ruri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    raging christian fundamentalist apocalypse cult that thinks a huge war in the Middle East is necessary to get Jesus to come back
    wait, what?
    In order for Jesus to come and take them away in his space ship, Revelations must literally come true, meaning the seven seals and all that shit. Literally the apocolypse, or Jesus ain’t coming back. This is also the reason they don't care about pollution/climate change, etc. no point saving the planet when you want it destroyed so your end times cult can rapture...
    c, this is a common belief in nutjob circles

    Some of them want to hasten global warming, war, disease, famine, etc. precisely because these are the events that precede the end times. If they don't happen, Jesus won't come back, and these people want to see Jesus in person before they die.

    This delusion hinges on the idea that God will not punish them for despoiling His creation, and instead reward them for their faith...
    Well it also hinges on being fucking cross-eyed badger spit crazy in the head, if we're honest. Which makes up, well, see the above chart for % of Americans.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot
    Do you even lift? Do you even post.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Ass ass ass.

  16. #49116
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    tbh, the chart is garbage because it doesn't define what's included in "evangelical". I'm part of the ELCA, so does that make me an evangelical Protestant or mainline Protestant?
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...

  17. #49117
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    tbh, the chart is garbage because it doesn't define what's included in "evangelical". I'm part of the ELCA, so does that make me an evangelical Protestant or mainline Protestant?
    Remember, generalization and treating a population as a single-minded-group is ok when we talk about evangelicals.

    Because they are bad crazy people.

    Are you a bad crazy person?


  18. #49118
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Are you a bad crazy person?
    What say you, Failheap?
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...

  19. #49119
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    tbh, the chart is garbage because it doesn't define what's included in "evangelical". I'm part of the ELCA, so does that make me an evangelical Protestant or mainline Protestant?
    I dunno? Does your pastor place a heavy emphasis on apocalyptic theology?

    How about your fellow Congregationalists? Are they stoked about reclaiming the Temple Mount from the heathens?
    Last edited by Lachesis VII; June 12 2018 at 08:14:14 PM.

  20. #49120
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    tbh, the chart is garbage because it doesn't define what's included in "evangelical". I'm part of the ELCA, so does that make me an evangelical Protestant or mainline Protestant?
    I dunno? Does your pastor place a heavy emphasis on apocalyptic theology?
    Quite the opposite. Our congregation has been more focused on helping the homeless and being good stewards of God's creation.
    How about your fellow Congregationalists? Are they stoked about reclaiming the Temple Mount from the heathens?
    Haven't heard such talk, but there are many people there I don't talk with. If there was anyone who held such beliefs, they are dead, no longer with the congregation, or have learned to keep quiet.
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...

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