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Thread: USA Politics Thread

  1. #55641
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ego Proxy View Post
    The situation is this:

    In the United States, if every citizen was given 'free' healthcare, food,shelter, education, in such a manner that if they did nothing else, and chose not to take advantage of any opportunity, everyone would be above the poverty line, you would get:
    A handful of people that through their own (in)action place themselves below the poverty level (secondary poverty)
    A lot of people content with their situation, and once free of the mental stress of survival able to learn and participate in the arts/contribute to society/do all the things that generally make a civilization socially richer.
    A few people with the desire/drive to gain more than what their allotment is, perhaps (hopefully) with a plan behind their motivation of how to change their culture for the better.

    Capitalism has no problem providing for this example.
    What we have now is a system with people that hate themselves just enough thinking it is their right and obligation to prevent such a system because be damned if anyone if the very first category freeloads off them.
    This is pretty much accurate.
    meh

  2. #55642
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Generally Conservatives' schtick is that they too understand that structural inequality makes it extremely hard for the disadvantaged to climb out of the morass of mediocrity, the difference is, they simply don't care.
    Simply don't care? I don't think so. Part of the current, especially libertarian, slant of conservatism, as prevalent in the US, at least as I see it, see it as an ideological necessity to make the poor poorer, and the rich richer. It is not so much an ideological by-product, it is more that it is ordained to be 'a good thing', in a survival of the fittest sense.

    Remember that much in contemporary (far) right wing ideology (which has replaced conservatism a long time ago) is (now, if you like) a zero-sum game. And a short-term one at that. As such, baked right into the code of all contemporary right wing ideology is the understanding you can only have rich people (who are to be reverred) if they exploit poor people (especially along national, social, and/or racial lines). There is no win-win situation, and an inequitable society is the desired (and desirable) end-goal. Hayek, Friedman, and especially Rand weren't coy about this either (nor were their fascist forebears, BTW), although the former two were (slightly) better at dissembling it.

    Talk about personal agency by the (far) right, in this context, is just more window dressing to make the turkeys vote for Christmas.
    https://www.marxists.org/subject/sci.../kropotkin.htm

    Just gonna leave this here, with regards to the whole “Darwinian survival of the fittest” thing.

  3. #55643
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ego Proxy View Post
    The situation is this:

    In the United States, if every citizen was given 'free' healthcare, food,shelter, education, in such a manner that if they did nothing else, and chose not to take advantage of any opportunity, everyone would be above the poverty line, you would get:
    A handful of people that through their own (in)action place themselves below the poverty level (secondary poverty)
    A lot of people content with their situation, and once free of the mental stress of survival able to learn and participate in the arts/contribute to society/do all the things that generally make a civilization socially richer.
    A few people with the desire/drive to gain more than what their allotment is, perhaps (hopefully) with a plan behind their motivation of how to change their culture for the better.

    Capitalism has no problem providing for this example.
    What we have now is a system with people that hate themselves just enough thinking it is their right and obligation to prevent such a system because be damned if anyone if the very first category freeloads off them.
    This is pretty much accurate.

    I think most of the people worried about freeloaders have a deep-seated desire to freeload, and think that everyone else is as lazy as they are.

  4. #55644
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Generally Conservatives' schtick is that they too understand that structural inequality makes it extremely hard for the disadvantaged to climb out of the morass of mediocrity, the difference is, they simply don't care.
    Simply don't care? I don't think so. Part of the current, especially libertarian, slant of conservatism, as prevalent in the US, at least as I see it, see it as an ideological necessity to make the poor poorer, and the rich richer. It is not so much an ideological by-product, it is more that it is ordained to be 'a good thing', in a survival of the fittest sense.

    Remember that much in contemporary (far) right wing ideology (which has replaced conservatism a long time ago) is (now, if you like) a zero-sum game. And a short-term one at that. As such, baked right into the code of all contemporary right wing ideology is the understanding you can only have rich people (who are to be reverred) if they exploit poor people (especially along national, social, and/or racial lines). There is no win-win situation, and an inequitable society is the desired (and desirable) end-goal. Hayek, Friedman, and especially Rand weren't coy about this either (nor were their fascist forebears, BTW), although the former two were (slightly) better at dissembling it.

    Talk about personal agency by the (far) right, in this context, is just more window dressing to make the turkeys vote for Christmas.
    Your not completely wrong, but the libs are pretty much desloving from the right wing of politics. Within 20 years they'll be the new left, alongside anarchists and solartopians.

    Somewhat relevant to
    https://qz.com/1443787/a-libertarian...tarianism/amp/

  5. #55645
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ego Proxy View Post
    The situation is this:

    In the United States, if every citizen was given 'free' healthcare, food,shelter, education, in such a manner that if they did nothing else, and chose not to take advantage of any opportunity, everyone would be above the poverty line, you would get:
    A handful of people that through their own (in)action place themselves below the poverty level (secondary poverty)
    A lot of people content with their situation, and once free of the mental stress of survival able to learn and participate in the arts/contribute to society/do all the things that generally make a civilization socially richer.
    A few people with the desire/drive to gain more than what their allotment is, perhaps (hopefully) with a plan behind their motivation of how to change their culture for the better.

    Capitalism has no problem providing for this example.
    What we have now is a system with people that hate themselves just enough thinking it is their right and obligation to prevent such a system because be damned if anyone if the very first category freeloads off them.
    This is pretty much accurate.

    I think most of the people worried about freeloaders have a deep-seated desire to freeload, and think that everyone else is as lazy as they are.
    I quite honestly blame 60 years of dodgy propaganda level trashing of socialism into a dirty word by said Darwinian conservatives.

    Mao and Stalin created concern, but what has occurred is a poisoning of the well to the point where any taking from "mine" to give to "ours" is seen as "literally gulags".

    I honestly don't care if you want to lax off in your government apartment. I want that to be a relatively comfortable experience. I have (maybe stupidly) faith that given the opportunity, humanity will create enterprise, as we've more or less always done. I think the number of people who will freeload is honestly, really quite small (as you say, the biggest complainers have guilty consciences, die jakkals ruik sy eie gat, as we say where I come from) and that is a societal values thing too.

    If people genuinely are unable to work, we should care for those people with no stigma attached. It's honestly what makes all this food stamp and drug tests for welfare recipient shit so fucking offensive. But then I don't have to tell you that.
    meh

  6. #55646
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Caine View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    The right overvalues personal agency and undervalues systemic issues.

    The left overvalues systemic issues and undervalues personal agency.

    What a shock.
    Oddly enough, I think there is a sweet spot in there somewhere, but I guess that's called being a fascist now,
    Nobody has called you a fascist mate, donít play that card.
    No, not you lot, but people have posted fishhook theory memes.

    People can think what they want about me. I do want the final solution to the nazi problem, remember.

    That said, there is a line of truth in all the trolling, and that is; there is no substitute for understanding the terrain of battle.
    Despite the fact that you've said on multiple occasions that you'd like to march people like me up against the wall and shoot us, I still like you Erich.

    Maybe you'll shoot me last.


  7. #55647
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Caine View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    The right overvalues personal agency and undervalues systemic issues.

    The left overvalues systemic issues and undervalues personal agency.

    What a shock.
    Oddly enough, I think there is a sweet spot in there somewhere, but I guess that's called being a fascist now,
    Nobody has called you a fascist mate, don’t play that card.
    No, not you lot, but people have posted fishhook theory memes.

    People can think what they want about me. I do want the final solution to the nazi problem, remember.

    That said, there is a line of truth in all the trolling, and that is; there is no substitute for understanding the terrain of battle.
    Despite the fact that you've said on multiple occasions that you'd like to march people like me up against the wall and shoot us, I still like you Erich.

    Maybe you'll shoot me last.
    You can always convert to the true path of compassionate, liberal democratic socialism. There is still time!
    meh

  8. #55648
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Caine View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    The right overvalues personal agency and undervalues systemic issues.

    The left overvalues systemic issues and undervalues personal agency.

    What a shock.
    Oddly enough, I think there is a sweet spot in there somewhere, but I guess that's called being a fascist now,
    Nobody has called you a fascist mate, donít play that card.
    No, not you lot, but people have posted fishhook theory memes.

    People can think what they want about me. I do want the final solution to the nazi problem, remember.

    That said, there is a line of truth in all the trolling, and that is; there is no substitute for understanding the terrain of battle.
    Despite the fact that you've said on multiple occasions that you'd like to march people like me up against the wall and shoot us, I still like you Erich.

    Maybe you'll shoot me last.
    You can always convert to the true path of compassionate, liberal democratic socialism. There is still time!


  9. #55649
    Liare's Avatar
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    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  10. #55650

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    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post

    No, I genuinely believe that given a blend of equality of opportunity, and enough of a safety net to support taking a shot, many many people could do well in the system we have.

    I'm not saying people aren't disadvantaged. I'm for finding out how to give more people the tools that allow some people to overcome it, because that does exist.

    At least to the point where you don't feel literally oppressed.
    This seems to be markedly different to what you were saying over the last few pages, and i do agree with it.
    If you go back and read my words, I've not strayed from this viewpoint.
    I did, and i don't agree lol
    I feel like we could make a proper Romney vs Romney meme.

    Put this erichkknaar on the left, acknowledging that systemic disadvantages exist, and put the other one, the one saying shit about how "all success comes from hard work" and "everyone in America has the chance to be successful if they work hard enough" on the right.

    Because I got some fucking whiplash from how his tune changed.
    Totally not Victoria Stecker forgetting his password and not having access to his work email.

  11. #55651
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post

    No, I genuinely believe that given a blend of equality of opportunity, and enough of a safety net to support taking a shot, many many people could do well in the system we have.

    I'm not saying people aren't disadvantaged. I'm for finding out how to give more people the tools that allow some people to overcome it, because that does exist.

    At least to the point where you don't feel literally oppressed.
    This seems to be markedly different to what you were saying over the last few pages, and i do agree with it.
    If you go back and read my words, I've not strayed from this viewpoint.
    I did, and i don't agree lol
    I feel like we could make a proper Romney vs Romney meme.

    Put this erichkknaar on the left, acknowledging that systemic disadvantages exist, and put the other one, the one saying shit about how "all success comes from hard work" and "everyone in America has the chance to be successful if they work hard enough" on the right.

    Because I got some fucking whiplash from how his tune changed.
    Schrodinger's Knaar.

    Simultaneously thriving and completely oppressed by capitalism.
    meh

  12. #55652
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    and now for something completely different.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...me-corsi-claim

    Robert Mueller is seeking more information about Nigel Farage for his investigation into Russian interference in US politics, according to a target of the inquiry who expects to be criminally charged.
    meh

  13. #55653
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Idk about all this but I do think maybe higher education shouldn't cost as much as a house and maybe medical care shouldn't bankrupt people. I dont think those are extremely left wing concepts.
    Literally Pol Pot
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  14. #55654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Idk about all this but I do think maybe higher education shouldn't cost as much as a house and maybe medical care shouldn't bankrupt people. I dont think those are extremely left wing concepts.
    Literally Pol Pot
    You wouldn't criticise Socialism, unless you were literally Hitler.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
    Just for the record, "sending a needy text" is never the right answer.

  15. #55655
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Idk about all this but I do think maybe higher education shouldn't cost as much as a house and maybe medical care shouldn't bankrupt people. I dont think those are extremely left wing concepts.
    Literally Pol Pot
    You wouldn't criticise Socialism, unless you were literally Hitler.
    Both sides are just as bad.

  16. #55656
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tulip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Idk about all this but I do think maybe higher education shouldn't cost as much as a house and maybe medical care shouldn't bankrupt people. I dont think those are extremely left wing concepts.
    Literally Pol Pot
    You wouldn't criticise Socialism, unless you were literally Hitler.
    Both sides are just as bad.
    Literally Nietzsche!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
    Just for the record, "sending a needy text" is never the right answer.

  17. #55657
    Donor Spaztick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tulip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Idk about all this but I do think maybe higher education shouldn't cost as much as a house and maybe medical care shouldn't bankrupt people. I dont think those are extremely left wing concepts.
    Literally Pol Pot
    You wouldn't criticise Socialism, unless you were literally Hitler.
    Both sides are just as bad.

  18. #55658
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    I have (maybe stupidly) faith that given the opportunity, humanity will create enterprise
    Enterprise, you say?


  19. #55659
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    I have (maybe stupidly) faith that given the opportunity, humanity will create enterprise
    Enterprise, you say?

    If there was any, the Lockheed-Boeing Constitution project would've been delayed for 10 years while Kirk had to fly a shittier ship

  20. #55660
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    I have (maybe stupidly) faith that given the opportunity, humanity will create enterprise
    Enterprise, you say?

    If there was any, the Lockheed-Boeing Constitution project would've been delayed for 10 years while Kirk had to fly a shittier ship
    With guns that couldn't be fired yet.
    meh

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