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Thread: USA Politics Thread

  1. #53021
    Donor lubica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparq View Post
    Riddle me this, how is saying:

    "automatic belief of accusations is actually a problem"

    =/=

    oh no

    my privilege
    Are you speaking only of sexual assault accusations, or for any offence or crime recognized under the law? Not that it matters, your statement is retarded.


    Quote Originally Posted by Narmio
    Welcome to Dwarf Fortress, where there is a fine line between insanity and gameplay. The line menaces with spikes of obsessive compulsion.

  2. #53022
    Djan Seriy Anaplian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparq View Post
    Riddle me this, how is saying:

    "automatic belief of accusations is actually a problem"

    =/=

    oh no

    my privilege
    Youíre missing the point. Itís totally possible to do both.

  3. #53023
    Donor Sparq's Avatar
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    Investigations take place because there is a belief a crime has taken place. Not because there is a belief a crime hasn't taken place.

    If I phone the cops because my back walls have been smashed in by thieves, they're not popping around just to prove me wrong. If I report a rape, they don't sit down with me to establish I'm a liar. Unless of course they do, in which case we're either back in "the bad old days", or they post here.

    It's all good & well to parrot about innocence and objectivity, but if you can't find the obvious fault with the bald statement "these women shouldn't just be believed when they come forward" when

    a) there is a wealth of statistical evidence that almost all claims have a basis in fact
    b) a reality in which investigations frequently are directed on the basis that police 'believe' a crime has taken place once a complaint is made
    c) it's something most decent human beings are capable of when confronted by a victim

    then you're either a fantasist or a misogynist. By all means though, feel free to go back to calling me names and giving one another hand-jobs.

  4. #53024
    Djan Seriy Anaplian's Avatar
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    Again, you’re missing the point. It is preferable to intimate belief while interrogating all evidential angles appropriately. These two approaches are not mutually exclusive.

  5. #53025
    Donor Sparq's Avatar
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    I forgot to add autist

  6. #53026
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Again, you’re missing the point. It is preferable to intimate belief while interrogating all evidential angles appropriately. These two approaches are not mutually exclusive.
    For all intents and purposes this is semantic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  7. #53027

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    We'll have to agree to differ. I prefer to look at evidence over accusations, and am quite fond of the "innocent until proven guilty" concept in crimes. And proof comes from, again, evidence.
    And "not automatically believing" is NOT the same as "automatically disbelieving". Police can easily believe a crime MAY have taken place, which is much more than semantically different from assuming the accused crime HAS taken place.

    So...."oh no my privilege" i guess.

  8. #53028
    Djan Seriy Anaplian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Again, you’re missing the point. It is preferable to intimate belief while interrogating all evidential angles appropriately. These two approaches are not mutually exclusive.
    For all intents and purposes this is semantic.
    No it really isn’t semantic and you don’t know what you’re talking about if you think it is.

    You give the victim respect and the impression of belief while gathering appropriate evidence. This achieves both outcomes of meeting the evidential standard and being on the side of the victim.

  9. #53029
    Donor lubica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Again, you’re missing the point. It is preferable to intimate belief while interrogating all evidential angles appropriately. These two approaches are not mutually exclusive.
    For all intents and purposes this is semantic.
    No it really isn’t semantic and you don’t know what you’re talking about if you think it is.

    You give the victim respect and the impression of belief while gathering appropriate evidence. This achieves both outcomes of meeting the evidential standard and being on the side of the victim.
    No, no, we need to reinvent the legal system for millenial snowflakes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Narmio
    Welcome to Dwarf Fortress, where there is a fine line between insanity and gameplay. The line menaces with spikes of obsessive compulsion.

  10. #53030
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    Considering the legal system massively discriminates against disenfranchised groups and regularly fails to deliver justice (plea deals, lack of access to legal representation, gross imbalances in power and information) it definitely needs reinvention for the benefits of society as a whole.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  11. #53031

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Considering the legal system massively discriminates against disenfranchised groups and regularly fails to deliver justice (plea deals, lack of access to legal representation, gross imbalances in power and information) it definitely needs reinvention for the benefits of society as a whole.
    This in many ways i actually agree with, though not because of what we've been discussing. There are a number of flaws in at least the UK one....from everything ive seen the US one seems even worse, but i have less direct knowledge (very little really).

  12. #53032
    Donor lubica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Considering the legal system massively discriminates against disenfranchised groups and regularly fails to deliver justice (plea deals, lack of access to legal representation, gross imbalances in power and information) it definitely needs reinvention for the benefits of society as a whole.
    Justice, hah. The courts deal with what the law says, not philosophical concepts like justice. That's why lawyers exist, and philosophers flip burgers at McD's.


    Quote Originally Posted by Narmio
    Welcome to Dwarf Fortress, where there is a fine line between insanity and gameplay. The line menaces with spikes of obsessive compulsion.

  13. #53033
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    In terms or the discussion I think the most important thing is the perception that women who have been sexually assaulted will be taken seriously. I don't think this perception exists among many women. I also think that the influential and powerful are probably a demographic most likely to be sexual predators (personality types, accessibility to vulnerable people and a confidence that they can get away with it), this makes it much more difficult for victims to come forward.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  14. #53034
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    Quote Originally Posted by lubica View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Considering the legal system massively discriminates against disenfranchised groups and regularly fails to deliver justice (plea deals, lack of access to legal representation, gross imbalances in power and information) it definitely needs reinvention for the benefits of society as a whole.
    Justice, hah. The courts deal with what the law says, not philosophical concepts like justice. That's why lawyers exist, and philosophers flip burgers at McD's.
    Are you a fucking idiot? How is that mildly related to anything in my post?
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  15. #53035
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Considering the legal system massively discriminates against disenfranchised groups and regularly fails to deliver justice (plea deals, lack of access to legal representation, gross imbalances in power and information) it definitely needs reinvention for the benefits of society as a whole.
    Pluswan

    Verstuurd vanaf mijn LENNY2 met Tapatalk
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  16. #53036
    Djan Seriy Anaplian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    In terms or the discussion I think the most important thing is the perception that women who have been sexually assaulted will be taken seriously. I don't think this perception exists among many women. I also think that the influential and powerful are probably a demographic most likely to be sexual predators (personality types, accessibility to vulnerable people and a confidence that they can get away with it), this makes it much more difficult for victims to come forward.
    This is fundamentally what i mean, and it starts and ends with how the police conduct themselves. Unfortunately the police generally deal with these things very poorly, from a UK perspective they really need more money frankly.

  17. #53037

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    In terms or the discussion I think the most important thing is the perception that women who have been sexually assaulted will be taken seriously. I don't think this perception exists among many women. I also think that the influential and powerful are probably a demographic most likely to be sexual predators (personality types, accessibility to vulnerable people and a confidence that they can get away with it), this makes it much more difficult for victims to come forward.
    I think (hope?) that we are all in agreement on that. They should absolutely be taken seriously, and the perception (or reality) that they wont be is a huge problem.

  18. #53038
    Donor lubica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Considering the legal system massively discriminates against disenfranchised groups and regularly fails to deliver justice (plea deals, lack of access to legal representation, gross imbalances in power and information) it definitely needs reinvention for the benefits of society as a whole.
    Justice, hah. The courts deal with what the law says, not philosophical concepts like justice. That's why lawyers exist, and philosophers flip burgers at McD's.
    Are you a fucking idiot? How is that mildly related to anything in my post?
    Because you seem to ignore the fact that the legal system is constantly under modification to address exactly those imbalances through centuries now, through public action and legislative change. The UK legal system is a p. good example of that. The trouble is electing people to those positions where such changes can be effected. I don't think the whole legal system needs to be reinvented though. But we're straying off-topic here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Narmio
    Welcome to Dwarf Fortress, where there is a fine line between insanity and gameplay. The line menaces with spikes of obsessive compulsion.

  19. #53039

  20. #53040

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    That man really likes a wall.

    Tbh, anybody determined enough to walk across the Sahara desert is a) Not going to be bothered about a wall and B) is likely to be thankful for the bloody shade.

    Score another one for the mushroom-cocked genius.

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