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Thread: USA Politics Thread

  1. #50021
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    What I find funny is that the right constantly criticise him for doing too much, while the left criticise him for not having done enough! Sounds like a centrist to me ...
    Quite possibly the worst definition of "Centrist" possible.

    If we use that definition, every American president since FDR is a "centrist". Including Trump ffs.

    FDR was not a centrist by any stretch. But nor would I classify him as an Authoritarian either, despite having done a few authoritarian things in his time.
    Well, he is widely regarded to have saved American capitalism from itself, so from a certain point of view he was centrist in that he preserved the existing economic structures.

  2. #50022
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    I never said FDR was an extremist?

    I did say he is regarded by more than a few historians as an authoritarian. Which is true. You can say “nih uh, he wasn’t!” if you want and make the argument, and that’s fine.

    This was offered as a claim that authoritarianism isn’t universally negative, and is occasionally necessary to deal with historical speed-bumps like the Great Depression and the Nazis.
    There's plenty to criticise FDR on. I've done so myself several times. But he was no more authoritarian as say, Hoover, Coolidge, or Harding. I'm not even going to Teddy. How about Jackson?

    The accusation is also unfair, because he was in the White House for far longer. No wonder that he was able to concentrate more power under his control than someone who has been there less than that. Moreover, as you already mentioned, he had the great depression and the fascists/nazis to deal with. And a lot of that power he did wield was given to him by congress.

    Who went along with what he did/proposed/etc. And when it looked like they wouldn't, he was politically smart enough not to push it. Just look at how constrained he was by the isolatioinist in the run up to the war! He couldn't push the boat out too far, because those constitutional checks and balances were still there, and pretty active!

    In addition, when he did (try to) overreach, he was swiftly called back to order by the supreme court. Also, what is notable is the strong support he got for most of his actions and policies; and that when he thought he wouldn't get it, he back off and away, and didn't proceed. In fact, he felt more bound and constrained (!) to public opinion that most of his predecessors. Or his successors, BTW.

    No, FDR was not so much an authoretarian as a president in exceptional circumstances, requiring him to do exceptional things. What I find interesting is not so much how much power he concentrated in his own hands, but how much he didn't even try to get, or want. Even when he had the chance.

    What I find funny is that the right constantly criticise him for doing too much, while the left criticise him for not having done enough! Sounds like a centrist to me ...

    (BTW, FDR's authoritarianism is a standard trope of the far right in the US. You know that, right?)
    I’m aware the right criticizes FDR for authoritarian tendencies, yes.

    I’m suggesting that that criticism is in bad faith, as FDR was objectively one of the greatest presidents we’ve had, both because of and in spite of his authoritarian tendencies. Interning the Japanese, bad. Seizing private reserves of gold? Good. Mass deportation? Bad. Using the threat of court-packing to gain the compliance of the Supreme Court? Good.

    And so on.

    The right also calls Lincoln an authoritarian, don’t they?

  3. #50023
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    No, the right claims Lincoln as their own, and says it is why black people should vote for them.
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  4. #50024
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    No, the right claims Lincoln as their own, and says it is why black people should vote for them.
    Democrats love to forget their history, they were the party of slavery.

    Republicans love to forget their present, they took on most of the former party of slavery.


  5. #50025
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    No, the right claims Lincoln as their own, and says it is why black people should vote for them.
    Democrats love to forget their history, they were the party of slavery.

    Republicans love to forget their present, they took on most of the former party of slavery.
    BOTH

    SIDES

  6. #50026
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    I never said FDR was an extremist?

    I did say he is regarded by more than a few historians as an authoritarian. Which is true. You can say ďnih uh, he wasnít!Ē if you want and make the argument, and thatís fine.

    This was offered as a claim that authoritarianism isnít universally negative, and is occasionally necessary to deal with historical speed-bumps like the Great Depression and the Nazis.
    There's plenty to criticise FDR on. I've done so myself several times. But he was no more authoritarian as say, Hoover, Coolidge, or Harding. I'm not even going to Teddy. How about Jackson?

    The accusation is also unfair, because he was in the White House for far longer. No wonder that he was able to concentrate more power under his control than someone who has been there less than that. Moreover, as you already mentioned, he had the great depression and the fascists/nazis to deal with. And a lot of that power he did wield was given to him by congress.

    Who went along with what he did/proposed/etc. And when it looked like they wouldn't, he was politically smart enough not to push it. Just look at how constrained he was by the isolatioinist in the run up to the war! He couldn't push the boat out too far, because those constitutional checks and balances were still there, and pretty active!

    In addition, when he did (try to) overreach, he was swiftly called back to order by the supreme court. Also, what is notable is the strong support he got for most of his actions and policies; and that when he thought he wouldn't get it, he back off and away, and didn't proceed. In fact, he felt more bound and constrained (!) to public opinion that most of his predecessors. Or his successors, BTW.

    No, FDR was not so much an authoretarian as a president in exceptional circumstances, requiring him to do exceptional things. What I find interesting is not so much how much power he concentrated in his own hands, but how much he didn't even try to get, or want. Even when he had the chance.

    What I find funny is that the right constantly criticise him for doing too much, while the left criticise him for not having done enough! Sounds like a centrist to me ...

    (BTW, FDR's authoritarianism is a standard trope of the far right in the US. You know that, right?)
    Iím aware the right criticizes FDR for authoritarian tendencies, yes.

    Iím suggesting that that criticism is in bad faith, as FDR was objectively one of the greatest presidents weíve had, both because of and in spite of his authoritarian tendencies. Interning the Japanese, bad. Seizing private reserves of gold? Good. Mass deportation? Bad. Using the threat of court-packing to gain the compliance of the Supreme Court? Good.

    And so on.

    The right also calls Lincoln an authoritarian, donít they?
    It is in bad faith. And, like with Lincoln, it is also untrue. And that's the point I was trying to make.

    It is instructive to see why the right criticises FDR for authoritarianism, or having such tendencies.

    Is it because of Interning the Japanese? No, at the time the GOP kept silent about it. Is it because of those mass deportations (started under Hoover)? No, the GOP had no problem with that either. Is it because of court-packing the Supreme Court? Well, some, yes, but that's not why the right accuse him of authoritarianism today (read: they would have done the same thing).

    No, the right, today, accuse him authoritarianism because he seized private gold reserves, introduced the New Deal, and started Medicare and Medicate. And why? Because they hate all that with a passion, but were simply incapable, at the time, to prevent him from doing so. Because he not only had massive popular support for doing so, but also majority support in congress.

    Simply put: those are all political battles they downright lost, but that were massively popular, and arguably massive successful.

    But that doesn't make him an authoritarian, let alone a dictator. That makes him a succesful politician. Who so happens to not to be Republican.

    Well, let me warn you:


    Also:
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  7. #50027
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    I never said FDR was an extremist?

    I did say he is regarded by more than a few historians as an authoritarian. Which is true. You can say “nih uh, he wasn’t!” if you want and make the argument, and that’s fine.

    This was offered as a claim that authoritarianism isn’t universally negative, and is occasionally necessary to deal with historical speed-bumps like the Great Depression and the Nazis.

    Both Woodrow Wilson and FDR oversaw the mass deportation of "Mexicans" including US citizens of Mexican decent without oversite or due process. The numbers vary depending on source from a few hundred thousand to well over a million. FDR inherited the policy from Hoover but made no attempt to stop it.


    The reason given was that Mexicans were taking American (read white) jobs.
    Some useful wiki quotes for everyone.

    President Hoover publicly endorsed Secretary of Labor Doak and his campaign to add "245 more agents to assist in the deportation of 500,000 foreigners." Doak’s measures included monitoring labor protests or farm strikes and labeling protesters and protest leaders as possible subversives, communists, or radicals. "Strike leaders and picketers would be arrested, charged with being illegal aliens or engaging in illegal activities, and thus be subject to arbitrary deportation."
    Once apprehended, requesting a hearing was a possibility, but immigration officers rarely informed individuals of their rights, and the hearings were "official but informal," in that immigration inspectors "acted as interpreter, accuser, judge, and jury." Moreover, the deportee was seldom represented by a lawyer, a privilege that could only be granted at the discretion of the immigration officer. This process was likely a violation of US federal due process, equal protection, and Fourth Amendment rights.
    Repatriation is not widely discussed in U.S. history textbooks. In a 2006 survey of the nine most commonly used American history textbooks in the United States, four did not mention the topic, and only one devoted more than half a page to the topic. In total, they devoted four pages to the repatriation. In comparison, the same survey found eighteen pages covering the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II, which affected a much smaller number of people. California has passed legislation attempting to address this in future curriculum revisions.
    The South African government tried this education trick with regards to the past too, and they where most definitely fascist, with the trappings of democracy for whites. The Apartheid law itself was the messianic leader though, with Verwoerd, it's author martyred to make it sacred. Adherence to "law and order" used to excuse many, many evil things.
    You should read Anthony Read: The world on Fire. 1919 and the battle with Bolshevism. The USA parts.
    That book is a real eye opener on what US society can do and what the current myths are about it.
    Besides Hobsbawm and Zinn that is.
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  8. #50028
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    and started Medicare and Medicate.
    I believe you mean Social Security, Medicare was started in the 1960's by Johnson.

  9. #50029
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    Nope, not even biting. You've made your stance clear.
    Yeah, that you shouldn't do what you're doing right now. I stand by that.
    You mean he shouldn't do exactly wat you do?
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  10. #50030

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    From my local vicinity, the forgotten parts of New York where many people vote R.

    https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/...305/1281904221

    He even has a LOLfundme, which I believe had no backers until the local stations did their previews for the 11pm news blocks mentioning the store a few minutes ago.

    https://www.gofundme.com/trump039s-t...rable-start-up

  11. #50031
    Donor Sponk's Avatar
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    $105 of $150,000 goal

    :thinking:
    Contract stuff to Seraphina Amaranth.

    "You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say - of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position. Ever."


  12. #50032
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight Hustlin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    and started Medicare and Medicate.
    I believe you mean Social Security, Medicare was started in the 1960's by Johnson.
    Yes, you're right, I meant Social Security ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  13. #50033
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boltorano View Post
    From my local vicinity, the forgotten parts of New York where many people vote R.

    https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/...305/1281904221

    He even has a LOLfundme, which I believe had no backers until the local stations did their previews for the 11pm news blocks mentioning the store a few minutes ago.

    https://www.gofundme.com/trump039s-t...rable-start-up
    Lol, Trump supporters asking for a handout.

    How about them bootstraps, hey?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  14. #50034
    Donor Shiodome's Avatar
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    You're thinking of Republicans, not Trump supporters.

  15. #50035
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Boltorano View Post
    From my local vicinity, the forgotten parts of New York where many people vote R.

    https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/...305/1281904221

    He even has a LOLfundme, which I believe had no backers until the local stations did their previews for the 11pm news blocks mentioning the store a few minutes ago.

    https://www.gofundme.com/trump039s-t...rable-start-up
    Lol, Trump supporters asking for a handout.

    How about them bootstraps, hey?
    Trump supporters are 100% in favour of handouts, as long as they're not going to, you know


    Them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  16. #50036
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Boltorano View Post
    From my local vicinity, the forgotten parts of New York where many people vote R.

    https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/...305/1281904221

    He even has a LOLfundme, which I believe had no backers until the local stations did their previews for the 11pm news blocks mentioning the store a few minutes ago.

    https://www.gofundme.com/trump039s-t...rable-start-up
    Lol, Trump supporters asking for a handout.

    How about them bootstraps, hey?
    People who truly believe in what they preach shouldn't care if "handouts" go to Trump supports or Hillary supporters, only that those in need get the handout they need.

    Regardless of political affiliation.


  17. #50037
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Boltorano View Post
    From my local vicinity, the forgotten parts of New York where many people vote R.

    https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/...305/1281904221

    He even has a LOLfundme, which I believe had no backers until the local stations did their previews for the 11pm news blocks mentioning the store a few minutes ago.

    https://www.gofundme.com/trump039s-t...rable-start-up
    Lol, Trump supporters asking for a handout.

    How about them bootstraps, hey?
    People who truly believe in what they preach shouldn't care if "handouts" go to Trump supports or Hillary supporters, only that those in need get the handout they need.

    Regardless of political affiliation.
    Itís the cognitive dissonance of wanting handouts themselves while doing their damndest to deny them to others that everyone makes fun at. You have to have dehumanized the fuck out of some set of individuals to think like that, in my observation.
    meh

  18. #50038
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    https://www.npr.org/2018/07/04/62588...onspiracy-theo

    A former IT specialist for congressional Democrats who has figured prominently in right-wing conspiracy theories pleaded guilty Tuesday to making false statements on a loan application. Nevertheless, federal prosecutors said they found no evidence that he stole government secrets, as many conservatives, including President Trump, have suggested.

    Imran Awan ó who worked for former chairwoman of the Democratic National Committee Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz and other Democratic lawmakers ó was arrested a year ago at Dulles International Airport outside Washington, D.C., and charged with bank fraud.

    Since then, right-wing websites such as The Daily Caller and commentators on Fox News have pushed a narrative that Awan, a Pakistani immigrant, used his job as a cover for stealing government secrets. In tweets, Trump referred to him as "the Pakistani mystery man" and vaguely suggested that he was tied to the hacking of the DNC's email servers.

    However, Awan's guilty plea on Tuesday was unrelated to his work as an IT consultant.

    Awan's attorney, Christopher Gowen, said his client acknowledged that in December 2016, he had submitted an online loan application listing a property in his wife's name as her primary residence. It was instead a rental property.

    Gowan said Awan's misrepresentation was "wrong" and aimed at speeding the loan approval so that he could send money to his ailing father in Pakistan.

    As The Washington Post notes, "the agreement included an unusual passage that described the scope of the investigation and cleared Awan of a litany of conspiracy theories promulgated on Internet blogs, picked up by right-leaning news sites and fanned by Trump on Twitter."

    "The Government has uncovered no evidence that your client violated federal law with respect to the House computer systems," prosecutors noted in the plea agreement signed Tuesday.

    "Particularly, the Government has found no evidence that your client illegally removed House data from the House network or from House Members' offices, stole the House Democratic Caucus Server, stole or destroyed House information technology equipment, or improperly accessed or transferred government information, including classified or sensitive information," it said.

    The plea deal said the government had conducted "a thorough investigation of those allegations. Including interviewing approximately 40 witnesses."

    The investigation was led by Trump-nominated U.S. Attorney Jessie K. Liu, according to the Post.

    Awan's attorney said in a statement that his client had been the target of "political persecution."

    "There has never been any missing server, smashed hard drives, blackmailed members of Congress, or breach of classified information," he said in the statement, according to the Post. "Yet Fox News and its media children continued to peddle a story in perfect coordination with House Republicans and the President."
    Last edited by Nordstern; July 4 2018 at 01:49:20 PM.
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...

  19. #50039

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    US official: Trump pressed aides about Venezuela invasion

    In how many years of independence US was in peace?

  20. #50040
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