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Thread: US Politics Thread

  1. #52301
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Crush View Post
    Trump's Presidency is effectively over, impeachment or not.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/o...esistance.html
    Coup d’etat when?
    Why Coup d'etat when you can keep the manchild around and all you have to do is sweep the odd steaming coil under the rug and you keep most of the morons sated and a rubber stamp for your agenda.
    meh

  2. #52302
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    I wasnít referring to free speech, but the hypocrisy inherent in attacking him. You canít support the ideals of the US - those ideals that you fought a fuckoff big war/nuked a bunch of japs over - and then criticise Kaepernick for literally upholding those ideals on the pitch without being a flaming hypocrite.

    Itís just fucking dumb. He probably did the most legit American thing an individual can do and got pilloried for it.
    Welcome to the US of A post 9/11. During the invasion of Iraq it was the conviction of Republicans in the US that it's wrong to criticize a sitting president during a war. I was specifically told that it's not right to criticize Bush. I got off lightly for being a foreigner. My liberal minded teachers, many who studied education so that they would not have to go to Vietnam, were considered traitors. It took a very different substitute teacher to put some sense in my American lit class. They couldn't argue with an ex-Marines' officer who spent a long time in Vietnam. They tried though.
    Tell that to Eugene Debs...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition_Act_of_1918

    ďIt forbade the use of "disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language" about the United States government, its flag, or its armed forces or that caused others to view the American government or its institutions with contempt. Those convicted under the act generally received sentences of imprisonment for five to 20 years.Ē

    Relevant statutory text, which is incredibly broad:

    whoever, when the United States is at war, shall willfully utter, print, write or publish any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the form of government of the United States or the Constitution of the United States, or the military or naval forces of the United States, or the flag of the United States, or the uniform of the Army or Navy of the United States into contempt, scorn, contumely, or disrepute, or shall willfully utter, print, write, or publish any language intended to incite, provoke, or encourage resistance to the United States, or to promote the cause of its enemies, or shall willfully display the flag of any foreign enemy, or shall willfully by utterance, writing, printing, publication, or language spoken, urge, incite, or advocate any curtailment of production in this country of any thing or things, product or products, necessary or essential to the prosecution of the war in which the United States may be engaged, with intent by such curtailment to cripple or hinder the United States in the prosecution of war, and whoever shall willfully advocate, teach, defend, or suggest the doing of any of the acts or things in this section enumerated, and whoever shall by word or act support or favor the cause of any country with which the United States is at war or by word or act oppose the cause of the United States therein, shall be punished by a fine of not more than $10,000 or the imprisonment for not more than twenty years, or both


    Speech that got Debs 10 years in prison:

    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Debs%...ch_of_Sedition

    His statement to the court:

    https://www.marxists.org/archive/deb...1918/court.htm

    God forbid this nation ever actually declare war again... Iíd expect to see widespread prosecutions under this set of laws. Arguably, Kaepernick, et al could be charged under it if we were at war.
    Last edited by Lachesis VII; September 5 2018 at 10:47:21 PM.

  3. #52303
    Djan Seriy Anaplian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    I wasn’t referring to free speech, but the hypocrisy inherent in attacking him. You can’t support the ideals of the US - those ideals that you fought a fuckoff big war/nuked a bunch of japs over - and then criticise Kaepernick for literally upholding those ideals on the pitch without being a flaming hypocrite.

    It’s just fucking dumb. He probably did the most legit American thing an individual can do and got pilloried for it.
    Welcome to the US of A post 9/11. During the invasion of Iraq it was the conviction of Republicans in the US that it's wrong to criticize a sitting president during a war. I was specifically told that it's not right to criticize Bush. I got off lightly for being a foreigner. My liberal minded teachers, many who studied education so that they would not have to go to Vietnam, were considered traitors. It took a very different substitute teacher to put some sense in my American lit class. They couldn't argue with an ex-Marines' officer who spent a long time in Vietnam. They tried though.
    Tell that to Eugene Debs...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition_Act_of_1918

    “It forbade the use of "disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language" about the United States government, its flag, or its armed forces or that caused others to view the American government or its institutions with contempt. Those convicted under the act generally received sentences of imprisonment for five to 20 years.”

    Relevant statutory text, which is incredibly broad:

    whoever, when the United States is at war, shall willfully utter, print, write or publish any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the form of government of the United States or the Constitution of the United States, or the military or naval forces of the United States, or the flag of the United States, or the uniform of the Army or Navy of the United States into contempt, scorn, contumely, or disrepute, or shall willfully utter, print, write, or publish any language intended to incite, provoke, or encourage resistance to the United States, or to promote the cause of its enemies, or shall willfully display the flag of any foreign enemy, or shall willfully by utterance, writing, printing, publication, or language spoken, urge, incite, or advocate any curtailment of production in this country of any thing or things, product or products, necessary or essential to the prosecution of the war in which the United States may be engaged, with intent by such curtailment to cripple or hinder the United States in the prosecution of war, and whoever shall willfully advocate, teach, defend, or suggest the doing of any of the acts or things in this section enumerated, and whoever shall by word or act support or favor the cause of any country with which the United States is at war or by word or act oppose the cause of the United States therein, shall be punished by a fine of not more than $10,000 or the imprisonment for not more than twenty years, or both


    Speech that got Debs 10 years in prison:

    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Debs%...ch_of_Sedition

    His statement to the court:

    https://www.marxists.org/archive/deb...1918/court.htm

    God forbid this nation ever actually declare war again... I’d expect to see widespread prosecutions under this set of laws. Arguably, Kaepernick, et al could be charged under it if we were at war.
    This coupled with that article Candy posted actually made my skin crawl

  4. #52304

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    On a lighter note, when some conspiracy nut was trying to interrupt the hearing, the Congressman who used to work as auctioneer springs into action:


  5. #52305

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Crush View Post
    Trump's Presidency is effectively over, impeachment or not.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/o...esistance.html

    Plot twist: the "unnamed senior administration official" is Ivanka.

  6. #52306
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    I wasn’t referring to free speech, but the hypocrisy inherent in attacking him. You can’t support the ideals of the US - those ideals that you fought a fuckoff big war/nuked a bunch of japs over - and then criticise Kaepernick for literally upholding those ideals on the pitch without being a flaming hypocrite.

    It’s just fucking dumb. He probably did the most legit American thing an individual can do and got pilloried for it.
    Welcome to the US of A post 9/11. During the invasion of Iraq it was the conviction of Republicans in the US that it's wrong to criticize a sitting president during a war. I was specifically told that it's not right to criticize Bush. I got off lightly for being a foreigner. My liberal minded teachers, many who studied education so that they would not have to go to Vietnam, were considered traitors. It took a very different substitute teacher to put some sense in my American lit class. They couldn't argue with an ex-Marines' officer who spent a long time in Vietnam. They tried though.
    Tell that to Eugene Debs...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition_Act_of_1918

    “It forbade the use of "disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language" about the United States government, its flag, or its armed forces or that caused others to view the American government or its institutions with contempt. Those convicted under the act generally received sentences of imprisonment for five to 20 years.”

    Relevant statutory text, which is incredibly broad:

    whoever, when the United States is at war, shall willfully utter, print, write or publish any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the form of government of the United States or the Constitution of the United States, or the military or naval forces of the United States, or the flag of the United States, or the uniform of the Army or Navy of the United States into contempt, scorn, contumely, or disrepute, or shall willfully utter, print, write, or publish any language intended to incite, provoke, or encourage resistance to the United States, or to promote the cause of its enemies, or shall willfully display the flag of any foreign enemy, or shall willfully by utterance, writing, printing, publication, or language spoken, urge, incite, or advocate any curtailment of production in this country of any thing or things, product or products, necessary or essential to the prosecution of the war in which the United States may be engaged, with intent by such curtailment to cripple or hinder the United States in the prosecution of war, and whoever shall willfully advocate, teach, defend, or suggest the doing of any of the acts or things in this section enumerated, and whoever shall by word or act support or favor the cause of any country with which the United States is at war or by word or act oppose the cause of the United States therein, shall be punished by a fine of not more than $10,000 or the imprisonment for not more than twenty years, or both


    Speech that got Debs 10 years in prison:

    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Debs%...ch_of_Sedition

    His statement to the court:

    https://www.marxists.org/archive/deb...1918/court.htm

    God forbid this nation ever actually declare war again... I’d expect to see widespread prosecutions under this set of laws. Arguably, Kaepernick, et al could be charged under it if we were at war.
    This coupled with that article Candy posted actually made my skin crawl
    Welcome to America.

    It’s essentially illegal to be part of an anti-war movement during wartime.
    Last edited by Lachesis VII; September 5 2018 at 11:39:13 PM.

  7. #52307
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Crush View Post
    Trump's Presidency is effectively over, impeachment or not.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/o...esistance.html

    Plot twist: the "unnamed senior administration official" is Ivanka.
    I'm thinking Ross or Sessions.
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...
    Johns Hopkins CSSE COVID-19 Dashboard (updated link)

  8. #52308
    Dorvil Barranis's Avatar
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    Arguably, Kaepernick, et al could be charged under it if we were at war.
    Wow, good thing we haven't been at war non-stop since 2001.
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  9. #52309

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Crush View Post
    Trump's Presidency is effectively over, impeachment or not.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/o...esistance.html

    Plot twist: the "unnamed senior administration official" is Ivanka.
    I'm thinking Ross or Sessions.
    The consensus seems to be that it is Nikki Haley.

    In any case, this basically makes Trump suspect everyone. Between the slow-rolling palace coup and the Mueller investigation, the walls are closing in.

  10. #52310

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Crush View Post
    Trump's Presidency is effectively over, impeachment or not.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/o...esistance.html

    Plot twist: the "unnamed senior administration official" is Ivanka.
    I'm thinking Ross or Sessions.

  11. #52311

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  12. #52312
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post

  13. #52313
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Crush View Post
    Trump's Presidency is effectively over, impeachment or not.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/o...esistance.html

    Plot twist: the "unnamed senior administration official" is Ivanka.
    I'm thinking Ross or Sessions.
    So a Pence speech writer who got pissed off?

    A thinking person would have to ask why no one is loyal to Trump for long.
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  14. #52314
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    Arguably, Kaepernick, et al could be charged under it if we were at war.
    Wow, good thing we haven't been at war non-stop since 2001.
    Uhhh, no, we didn't declare war on Iraq or Afghanistan.

    AUMF != declaration of war.

    We haven't declared war since 1941.

  15. #52315
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Crush View Post
    Trump's Presidency is effectively over, impeachment or not.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/o...esistance.html

    Plot twist: the "unnamed senior administration official" is Ivanka.
    I'm thinking Ross or Sessions.
    "Et tu, Brutus?"
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...
    Johns Hopkins CSSE COVID-19 Dashboard (updated link)

  16. #52316

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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Straight Hustlin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post

    Iím totally alright with people getting fired up by an anthem. What I found odd was that many defended KaepernickĎs blackballing because he delivered his protest while at work. Given what the idea of America represents, particularly independence from tyranny, isnít that really hypocritical?
    Also people have a disturbing willingness to give private entities a pass in this space, since the 1st amendment protection does not cover them. This has always been an idiotic position when you consider the influence that corporations already have
    Firstly it should be noted that the core tenant of the first amendment isn't actually about censorship, rather it is about criminalizing speech, borne out of lese majeste laws during the revolution where criticizing the monarchy, parliament, or colonial governors carried harsh penalties. Secondly 1st amendment protections should absolutely not cover private organizations, not only would it be massive government over reach; it is incredibly naive to think it would be practically enforceable, and ignores the obvious bad faith in which it would be abused.
    This whole post is full of strawmen so I'm only going to address one point here. The USA is slowly but surely approaching a neofeudal state, where corporations have more rights and powers than private individuals. It is absurd to think they should be exempt from the bill of rights just because of some fringe radicals who might abuse it.
    I, too, have problems with reading comprehension. There is no possible way to make either the First (Congress shall make no law) or the Fourteenth (No State shall make or enforce any law) Amendments apply to anything other than government actors. Because it was never meant to apply to corporations, they are no more "exempt" from it than is the government of Mexico.

    Now bad@botes

  17. #52317
    Dorvil Barranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    Arguably, Kaepernick, et al could be charged under it if we were at war.
    Wow, good thing we haven't been at war non-stop since 2001.
    Uhhh, no, we didn't declare war on Iraq or Afghanistan.

    AUMF != declaration of war.

    We haven't declared war since 1941.
    If there is shooting, bombing, and troops deployed, Imma gonna call it a war. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, etc.
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  18. #52318

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    If there is shooting, bombing, and troops deployed, Imma gonna call it a war.
    So, basically, every school-day/football game in 'Murica?

  19. #52319
    Dorvil Barranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    If there is shooting, bombing, and troops deployed, Imma gonna call it a war.
    So, basically, every school-day/football game in 'Murica?
    Hyperbole much?
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  20. #52320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    Arguably, Kaepernick, et al could be charged under it if we were at war.
    Wow, good thing we haven't been at war non-stop since 2001.
    Uhhh, no, we didn't declare war on Iraq or Afghanistan.

    AUMF != declaration of war.

    We haven't declared war since 1941.
    If there is shooting, bombing, and troops deployed, Imma gonna call it a war. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, etc.
    These legal nicities are important: you've gotta get them right or they'll come back to bite you in the arse. See also the invasion of Australia.

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