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Thread: US Politics Thread

  1. #59141
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    A return to the "Square Deal" and "New Deal" policies of the Roosevelt family that actually made America great is a workable solution. Assuming your mind isn't too polluted by decades of neoliberal propaganda of course.
    you realise that it's not practically possible to sustain that lifestyle without massive appropriation of wealth from the rest of the world right?

    a large part of why quality of life is so good in the west is that we've got the ability to rob poorer countries blind in the process, not even in the "heyday" of social democracy was the bill footed by the rich, it was paid for in large part from the gains from colonial and former colonial posessions.
    ding ding ding!
    not really
    Well, lets start by paying previous colonies back all the money that was taken from them to the first world, with interest, and we can go from there...
    Different discussion which is not without merit. But the idea that the wealth of the west is soley due to colonialism is bullshit.

    Consider also that Japan and Korea rebuilt themselves literally from ashes and are now far more advanced than the US in many regards.
    To poverty of most colonial countries is pretty much completely due to colonialism though. Lets also go ahead and take back the money for the Marshall plan and the Japanese and Korean rebuilds while we are at it.
    This whole line of discussion is such a goddamn strawman.

    Raise the taxes on the rich and corporations. Lower the taxes on the working classes. AKA, undo neoliberal economic "reforms" and go back to Roosevelt's policies and the post war consensus.

    Colonialism is a wholly separate subject.
    It's not though. The standard of living in the first world is set falsely high, propped up by stealing resources from the 3rd world.
    meh

  2. #59142
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    This whole line of discussion is such a goddamn strawman.

    Raise the taxes on the rich and corporations. Lower the taxes on the working classes. AKA, undo neoliberal economic "reforms" and go back to Roosevelt's policies and the post war consensus.

    Colonialism is a wholly separate subject.
    It's not though. The standard of living in the first world is set falsely high, propped up by stealing resources from the 3rd world.
    But it really is a strawman, unless you are saying trickle down economics works. Because the ones who benefited from colonialism sure as fuck aren't the people living in trailers or council housing, it is and always has been the wealthy and the corporations. They should be the ones paying higher taxes, not the poor. The wealthy must shoulder their burden and stop relying on literal plunder and state handouts to subsidize their lifestyle.

  3. #59143
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    This whole line of discussion is such a goddamn strawman.

    Raise the taxes on the rich and corporations. Lower the taxes on the working classes. AKA, undo neoliberal economic "reforms" and go back to Roosevelt's policies and the post war consensus.

    Colonialism is a wholly separate subject.
    It's not though. The standard of living in the first world is set falsely high, propped up by stealing resources from the 3rd world.
    But it really is a strawman, unless you are saying trickle down economics works. Because the ones who benefited from colonialism sure as fuck aren't the people living in trailers or council housing, it is and always has been the wealthy and the corporations. They should be the ones paying higher taxes, not the poor. The wealthy must shoulder their burden and stop relying on literal plunder and state handouts to subsidize their lifestyle.
    So you are totally OK with the west (yes, everyone benefits) using extremely predatory and unsustainable resource exploitation in the third world but not one group of people in the first world doing basically the same thing to another group in the first world?

  4. #59144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    A return to the "Square Deal" and "New Deal" policies of the Roosevelt family that actually made America great is a workable solution. Assuming your mind isn't too polluted by decades of neoliberal propaganda of course.
    you realise that it's not practically possible to sustain that lifestyle without massive appropriation of wealth from the rest of the world right?

    a large part of why quality of life is so good in the west is that we've got the ability to rob poorer countries blind in the process, not even in the "heyday" of social democracy was the bill footed by the rich, it was paid for in large part from the gains from colonial and former colonial posessions.
    Yeah sorry mate, I don't buy that for a second. Denmark had virtually no colonies, seems to be in a much better shape than America. Same goes for Sweden and Finland. Meanwhile the UK basically plundered the entire planet and is falling apart at the seams. Gonna have to strongly disagree with you on this one.
    you're neglecting a few aspects here, it's the same trap i jumped into myself mind you but it's a bit of a trap none the less.

    first off, the countries you mention are all part of a existing power bloc that very much carry out that sort of exploitation i am talking about, the EU. if you dial the clock back to pre-EU times then most of those countries where functionally satellite states of the US or USSR, or untouched by WW2 as Sweden where, Sweden especially benefited from the post war era in that their heavy industry was virtually intact and ready to produce the sort of goods that where heavily in demand at the time, the Marshall plan provided the funding in the west and a lot of the money that didn't go straight into rebuilding went into the pockets of the nations who had pulled trough with their production base relatively intact, Sweden among them.

    secondly, not everybody who benefits from the robbery carry it out, while Denmark had no significant colonial posessions at the time, that doesn't mean companies like Burmeister and Wain didn't benefit from access to cheap iron ore and copper from former colonial posessions and so on, British, French and Belgian companies where only too keen on selling whatever surplus raw materials they either could not or did not use on the market, depressing the raw material prices in the process, this was and is a part of why so much resource extraction gradually dried up in the west in the post war years, as wages rose the sites in question where no longer competitive, even things like the Swedish iron mines, for hundreds of years the source of some of the highest quality iron in the world have gradually closed down due to competitive pressures.

    and your assumption that we're in better shape over here is... misplaced, we're starting out from a position of "massively less fucked" but inequality is rising rapidly, child poverty has become a thing for the first time since the 80's and the social safety net has been rather significantly eroded, even things like pensions are functionally getting devalued in that, sure i am saving up for my own pension, but i won't actually get to see it until 72,5.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  5. #59145
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    This whole line of discussion is such a goddamn strawman.

    Raise the taxes on the rich and corporations. Lower the taxes on the working classes. AKA, undo neoliberal economic "reforms" and go back to Roosevelt's policies and the post war consensus.

    Colonialism is a wholly separate subject.
    It's not though. The standard of living in the first world is set falsely high, propped up by stealing resources from the 3rd world.
    But it really is a strawman, unless you are saying trickle down economics works. Because the ones who benefited from colonialism sure as fuck aren't the people living in trailers or council housing, it is and always has been the wealthy and the corporations. They should be the ones paying higher taxes, not the poor. The wealthy must shoulder their burden and stop relying on literal plunder and state handouts to subsidize their lifestyle.
    So you are totally OK with the west (yes, everyone benefits) using extremely predatory and unsustainable resource exploitation in the third world but not one group of people in the first world doing basically the same thing to another group in the first world?
    These are literally two separate issues which you keep trying to conflate. Maybe I'm not understanding something about your line of thinking so please try to answer this question for me.

    If you really believe that all of the wealth in the west is due to colonialism, then why should those with the least amount of political agency and economic power face higher taxes/austerity/reduction of benefits instead of the people and entities who directly cause and benefit from colonialism?

  6. #59146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    A return to the "Square Deal" and "New Deal" policies of the Roosevelt family that actually made America great is a workable solution. Assuming your mind isn't too polluted by decades of neoliberal propaganda of course.
    you realise that it's not practically possible to sustain that lifestyle without massive appropriation of wealth from the rest of the world right?

    a large part of why quality of life is so good in the west is that we've got the ability to rob poorer countries blind in the process, not even in the "heyday" of social democracy was the bill footed by the rich, it was paid for in large part from the gains from colonial and former colonial posessions.
    Yeah sorry mate, I don't buy that for a second. Denmark had virtually no colonies, seems to be in a much better shape than America. Same goes for Sweden and Finland. Meanwhile the UK basically plundered the entire planet and is falling apart at the seams. Gonna have to strongly disagree with you on this one.
    you're neglecting a few aspects here, it's the same trap i jumped into myself mind you but it's a bit of a trap none the less.

    first off, the countries you mention are all part of a existing power bloc that very much carry out that sort of exploitation i am talking about, the EU. if you dial the clock back to pre-EU times then most of those countries where functionally satellite states of the US or USSR, or untouched by WW2 as Sweden where, Sweden especially benefited from the post war era in that their heavy industry was virtually intact and ready to produce the sort of goods that where heavily in demand at the time, the Marshall plan provided the funding in the west and a lot of the money that didn't go straight into rebuilding went into the pockets of the nations who had pulled trough with their production base relatively intact, Sweden among them.

    secondly, not everybody who benefits from the robbery carry it out, while Denmark had no significant colonial posessions at the time, that doesn't mean companies like Burmeister and Wain didn't benefit from access to cheap iron ore and copper from former colonial posessions and so on, British, French and Belgian companies where only too keen on selling whatever surplus raw materials they either could not or did not use on the market, depressing the raw material prices in the process, this was and is a part of why so much resource extraction gradually dried up in the west in the post war years, as wages rose the sites in question where no longer competitive, even things like the Swedish iron mines, for hundreds of years the source of some of the highest quality iron in the world have gradually closed down due to competitive pressures.

    and your assumption that we're in better shape over here is... misplaced, we're starting out from a position of "massively less fucked" but inequality is rising rapidly, child poverty has become a thing for the first time since the 80's and the social safety net has been rather significantly eroded, even things like pensions are functionally getting devalued in that, sure i am saving up for my own pension, but i won't actually get to see it until 72,5.
    Your entire post can be condensed into one sentence. "Trickle down economics works". No, it does not. The lions share of colonial wealth went straight to the top and has ultimately been squandered. Again, if all of what you are saying is true then Britain should be a fucking interstellar empire and yet they are falling apart.

    And yes, you are in much better shape than the USA. I've lived in Denmark and I've lived in american shitholes. No one in your country is going bankrupt from medical bills or indebted for life to student loans, you have access to reliable public transportation, and you have massively lower crime rates. This is not because of "colonial wealth" but because of effective governance for the people (or at least, more for the people than the USA) instead of for the wealthy.

    You are indeed in way better shape than the USA, and you did it all without an entire continent of Banana republics. Give yourselves a fucking break and stop feeling so goddamn guilty for existing as a scandinavian.

  7. #59147
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    I like that erich "bootstraps" knaar's ultimate defense against reworking the current system so its less sociopathic is "why don't we repay the colonies first?"

    Peak Oakland/bay area liberal mentality where all these Poverty Abroad seminars and fundraisers are hosted on the same street that people are ODing on fent

  8. #59148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Your entire post can be condensed into one sentence. "Trickle down economics works". No, it does not. The lions share of colonial wealth went straight to the top and has ultimately been squandered. Again, if all of what you are saying is true then Britain should be a fucking interstellar empire and yet they are falling apart.
    the point is that it's not about the wealth extracted, but the impact doing so has further down the line and how these second/third order effects impact society as a whole.

    and Britain is fucked in large part because they think, behave and spend as if they've got a colonial empire when they don't, that and their scumservatives are truly some of the most reprehensible people, party wise, in the world, it's pretty impressive that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Yeah dude, no one in your country is going bankrupt from medical bills or indebted for life to student loans, you have access to reliable public transportation, and you have massively lower crime rates. You are indeed in way better shape than the USA, and you did it all without an entire continent of Banana republics. Give yourselves a fucking break and stop feeling so goddamn guilty for existing as a scandinavian.
    actually, we've got a couple of hundred who aren't ever going to see a fucking penny above the minimum of what the earn because some nutjob decided that privatized student loans was a good idea, in the 80's, when the interest rates where nudging past 15% p.a. that sure ended well.

    access to cheaper-than-it-should-be-without-exploitation resouces is part of what allowed us to build these societies so relatively quickly from the rubble of WW2, without it we'd be sitting somewhere in the mid 70's economically, now the 70's up here where actually kinda nice in that it was precisely the time the welfare state was cemented from a idea to a solid reality, so it would clearly have been possible to carry off regardless but that gap is still rather significant.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  9. #59149

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    The University Professor accusing Virginia Lt. Governor of Sexual Assault has released her story/statement:

    https://www.scribd.com/document/3990...son#from_embed


  10. #59150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Your entire post can be condensed into one sentence. "Trickle down economics works". No, it does not. The lions share of colonial wealth went straight to the top and has ultimately been squandered. Again, if all of what you are saying is true then Britain should be a fucking interstellar empire and yet they are falling apart.
    the point is that it's not about the wealth extracted, but the impact doing so has further down the line and how these second/third order effects impact society as a whole.

    and Britain is fucked in large part because they think, behave and spend as if they've got a colonial empire when they don't, that and their scumservatives are truly some of the most reprehensible people, party wise, in the world, it's pretty impressive that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Yeah dude, no one in your country is going bankrupt from medical bills or indebted for life to student loans, you have access to reliable public transportation, and you have massively lower crime rates. You are indeed in way better shape than the USA, and you did it all without an entire continent of Banana republics. Give yourselves a fucking break and stop feeling so goddamn guilty for existing as a scandinavian.
    actually, we've got a couple of hundred who aren't ever going to see a fucking penny above the minimum of what the earn because some nutjob decided that privatized student loans was a good idea, in the 80's, when the interest rates where nudging past 15% p.a. that sure ended well.

    access to cheaper-than-it-should-be-without-exploitation resouces is part of what allowed us to build these societies so relatively quickly from the rubble of WW2, without it we'd be sitting somewhere in the mid 70's economically, now the 70's up here where actually kinda nice in that it was precisely the time the welfare state was cemented from a idea to a solid reality, so it would clearly have been possible to carry off regardless but that gap is still rather significant.
    I'm sorry but I really just do not agree with you. The "benefits" of postwar colonialism (since that's the period you keep referring back to) are restricted to the price of goods and consumerist culture. This is an entirely separate issue from that of regulation and taxation of the wealthy and corporations.

    Now, if you want to argue that ALL taxes should be raised to make reparations not just on the poor but also the wealthy and the multinationals then I might be inclined to agree with you a bit. But so far I have not seen that, so far all I see is you two arguing that those with the least amount of social, economic, and political agency should be made to shoulder the burden for crimes committed by those with the most.

    Actually, what fucking shill professor is spreading this bullshit theory? This sounds like some neoliberal garbage being spread by a compromised university. What better way to protect the wealthy and ensure their lives go on as before than making the poor believe they are the ones to blame for all of the woes of the world?
    Last edited by Approaching Walrus; February 6 2019 at 09:26:36 PM.

  11. #59151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Your entire post can be condensed into one sentence. "Trickle down economics works". No, it does not. The lions share of colonial wealth went straight to the top and has ultimately been squandered. Again, if all of what you are saying is true then Britain should be a fucking interstellar empire and yet they are falling apart.
    the point is that it's not about the wealth extracted, but the impact doing so has further down the line and how these second/third order effects impact society as a whole.

    and Britain is fucked in large part because they think, behave and spend as if they've got a colonial empire when they don't, that and their scumservatives are truly some of the most reprehensible people, party wise, in the world, it's pretty impressive that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Yeah dude, no one in your country is going bankrupt from medical bills or indebted for life to student loans, you have access to reliable public transportation, and you have massively lower crime rates. You are indeed in way better shape than the USA, and you did it all without an entire continent of Banana republics. Give yourselves a fucking break and stop feeling so goddamn guilty for existing as a scandinavian.
    actually, we've got a couple of hundred who aren't ever going to see a fucking penny above the minimum of what the earn because some nutjob decided that privatized student loans was a good idea, in the 80's, when the interest rates where nudging past 15% p.a. that sure ended well.

    access to cheaper-than-it-should-be-without-exploitation resouces is part of what allowed us to build these societies so relatively quickly from the rubble of WW2, without it we'd be sitting somewhere in the mid 70's economically, now the 70's up here where actually kinda nice in that it was precisely the time the welfare state was cemented from a idea to a solid reality, so it would clearly have been possible to carry off regardless but that gap is still rather significant.
    I'm sorry but I really just do not agree with you. The "benefits" of postwar colonialism (since that's the period you keep referring back to) are restricted to the price of goods and consumerist culture. This is an entirely separate issue from that of regulation and taxation of the wealthy and corporations.

    Now, if you want to argue that ALL taxes should be raised to make reparations not just on the poor but also the wealthy and the multinationals then I might be inclined to agree with you a bit. But so far I have not seen that, so far all I see is you two arguing that those with the least amount of social, economic, and political agency should be made to shoulder the burden for crimes committed by those with the most.

    Actually, what fucking shill professor is spreading this bullshit theory? This sounds like some neoliberal garbage being spread by a compromised university. What better way to protect the wealthy and ensure their lives go on as before than making the poor believe they are the ones to blame for all of the woes of the world?
    Poor people in the first world have riches beyond imagination to those in the third world. Do you think only rich people buy all the products carved out of the nonrenewable ecosystems in the third world?
    meh

  12. #59152
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    I like that erich "bootstraps" knaar's ultimate defense against reworking the current system so its less sociopathic is "why don't we repay the colonies first?"

    Peak Oakland/bay area liberal mentality where all these Poverty Abroad seminars and fundraisers are hosted on the same street that people are ODing on fent
    So what you are saying is that redistributing wealth will cure addiction?
    meh

  13. #59153
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    I like that erich "bootstraps" knaar's ultimate defense against reworking the current system so its less sociopathic is "why don't we repay the colonies first?"

    Peak Oakland/bay area liberal mentality where all these Poverty Abroad seminars and fundraisers are hosted on the same street that people are ODing on fent
    So what you are saying is that redistributing wealth will cure addiction?
    Yeah it's crazy, you can reduce the allure of addictive substances by making people's lives less awful.

    Is this really such a big brain insight? jfc, we have hundreds of graphs from post soviet countries where substance abuse spiked and life expectancies went down right after the economy went into the toilet.

  14. #59154
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    I like that erich "bootstraps" knaar's ultimate defense against reworking the current system so its less sociopathic is "why don't we repay the colonies first?"

    Peak Oakland/bay area liberal mentality where all these Poverty Abroad seminars and fundraisers are hosted on the same street that people are ODing on fent
    So what you are saying is that redistributing wealth will cure addiction?
    Decriminalizing the use of drugs and setting up rehabilitation centers with taxes raised on pharmaceutical companies will.

  15. #59155
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    I like that erich "bootstraps" knaar's ultimate defense against reworking the current system so its less sociopathic is "why don't we repay the colonies first?"

    Peak Oakland/bay area liberal mentality where all these Poverty Abroad seminars and fundraisers are hosted on the same street that people are ODing on fent
    So what you are saying is that redistributing wealth will cure addiction?
    Yeah it's crazy, you can reduce the allure of addictive substances by making people's lives less awful.

    Is this really such a big brain insight? jfc, we have hundreds of graphs from post soviet countries where substance abuse spiked and life expectancies went down right after the economy went into the toilet.
    Well sure. There where no addicts at all during the soviet period...
    meh

  16. #59156
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Poor people in the first world have riches beyond imagination to those in the third world. Do you think only rich people buy all the products carved out of the nonrenewable ecosystems in the third world?
    Mate if you're trying to argue that colonialism is responsible for ridiculous shit like 1000 dollar flat screens and other stupidly cheap consumerist garbage made from minerals extracted by slaves and that consumerism needs to come to an end, I'm right there with you.

    But you're not. You're saying we can't raise taxes on the rich and corporations, the ones who cause and profit the most from colonialism, because we have to raise taxes on the poor instead to make reparations to the exploited nations. Completely ignoring the fact that poor people exist inside of a system that they lack the agency to change.

    Also, literally zero mainstream parties or movements have "make the poor pay back the colonies" as part of their platform. Unless you think that's the secret altruistic goal neoliberal darlings like Macron with their punitive policies against the poor, you and Liare are arguing a strawman point that is not part of any mainstream political debate.

    You know the situation is fucked when an actual african leader points out how shitty it is for workers in the supposedly richest country in the world. Please, tell me where the benefits of colonialism are?

    Last edited by Approaching Walrus; February 6 2019 at 10:10:46 PM. Reason: wrong clip

  17. #59157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    But you're not. You're saying we can't raise taxes on the rich and corporations.
    At absolutely no point have I said this.
    meh

  18. #59158
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    I like that erich "bootstraps" knaar's ultimate defense against reworking the current system so its less sociopathic is "why don't we repay the colonies first?"

    Peak Oakland/bay area liberal mentality where all these Poverty Abroad seminars and fundraisers are hosted on the same street that people are ODing on fent
    So what you are saying is that redistributing wealth will cure addiction?
    Yeah it's crazy, you can reduce the allure of addictive substances by making people's lives less awful.

    Is this really such a big brain insight? jfc, we have hundreds of graphs from post soviet countries where substance abuse spiked and life expectancies went down right after the economy went into the toilet.
    Well sure. There where no addicts at all during the soviet period...
    Are you and elon sharing?

    I have to ask...

  19. #59159
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    It isn't as simple as "give these people money and it'll solve their problems." In the most simple sense giving someone money will hurt them without making sure they use it correctly. Give a homeless guy $100,000 and he'll be back to being broke and homeless in a year or less.

    Can elaborate more later but I'm gonna just have to +1 and shitpost for right now, but I don't expect much disagreement that people are mostly really shitty when it comes to their own financial well-being.

  20. #59160
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    Hence the appeal of in-kind universal benefits.

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