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Thread: The Questionably Fascist [USA Politics Thread]™

  1. #39961
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    The only reason communism hasn't spent the last 30 years fucking our planet, is because it lost.
    So instead the planet gets fucked by capitalism! Yaaaay!
    Why does it have to be so extreme one way or the other?

    Why not aim for setting the "mix" of our various mixed economies a bit differently?

    You'll certainly get a lot more support for that than for going full Stalin.
    If you'd actually read what I write...

    Also, these ideals (collective/cooperative vs private/competitive) are not mutually exclusive, as any survey of societies will tell you. The most successful societies have examples of both paradigms, though one paradigm is always dominant. But when that paradigm becomes nearly exclusive or universal, you're fucked, and that's what we're dealing with now in the West. A return to balance, even if it's a capitalist-dominant balance, requires advocacy for the other side.
    Incentivize rural people to move with positive measures such as housing credits, land buybacks, job programs, etc. Protect urban cores with good engineering. Let a century or so of extreme weather do the rest
    Or any of a dozen other examples in these threads over the past few months. I have never advocated revolutionary change, I've never advocated for a communist dictatorship, Stalinism, or any of the other bullshit you seem compelled to try to assign to me.

    I believe in democratic republican government, by the people, and for the people, with strong constitutional protection for negative and positive human rights. The only "change" I want is for the socialist position to get equal schrift in the political process, as it did up until the middle of last century. If we wind up with a society that is still dominated by capitalism, but has rectified some of capitalism's injustices, that's fine! It's better than where we are now. If we wind up in a society dominated by socialism, but retaining much of the utliity capitalism brings, even better!

    But we don't get anywhere if we don't consider alternatives to capitalism. Otherwise we just continue our nice little slide into dystopia.

  2. #39962
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    When batteries become widespread...

    I laughed.

    Gas fired power plants are cheaper than renewables and will be for decades.

    From opium and tobacco industries to modern day coal, the power of capitalism to allow products and processes (especially because of power of democracy) to cling on way beyond the point of social good is astonishing.

    And yet here we are, tearing down soviet memes and convincing people that gulags are the real problem in today's society.
    You need the Gas though, and as demand goes up so does the price.

    Here in Oz the Government is being forced to keep ancient coal-fired power plants in operation because no one will spend 5 billion + on a project that will be unprofitable in a few years.

    We are headed for a distributed power grid so the days of big central power stations may well be numbered.

    The main bottleneck for batteries is rare earths but the bottleneck for LPG is a lack of supply.

  3. #39963
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    When batteries become widespread...

    I laughed.

    Gas fired power plants are cheaper than renewables and will be for decades.

    From opium and tobacco industries to modern day coal, the power of capitalism to allow products and processes (especially because of power of democracy) to cling on way beyond the point of social good is astonishing.

    And yet here we are, tearing down soviet memes and convincing people that gulags are the real problem in today's society.
    You might want to consider the role of the Federal Government in subsidization of power sources in your next screed on Capitalism.

    Hint: Power generation hasn't been "capitalist" in the U.S. in ages. Oil/Gas is "cheaper" only because the State chooses to subsidize it so power prices remain cheap to the end consumer. Something most consumers (i.e. voters) are big fans of, frankly. Just ask any jurisdiction that tried to raise it's fuels taxes if you doubt that.

    If a shift is what we need, then a discussion of public policy on energy subsidization is what we need to have.


    "Nothing left to do, but smile, smile, smile......" Robert Hunter, "He's Gone"
    "...we looked very closely at the matter and concluded that unfortunately arseholes also get to benefit from democratic freedoms." Andreas Geisel, Interior Affairs Senator, Germany


  4. #39964
    Rakshasa The Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steph View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakshasa The Cat View Post

    The SPLC publishes their kill list online and no one seem upset.
    Except they're often just upset for the sake of being upset.
    Holy shit.
    More informative than the Keckers tard fight.

    BTW, why you all so all silent on Awan and DWS? trololol
    Are you an engineer? -- Quack

  5. #39965
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    When batteries become widespread...

    I laughed.

    Gas fired power plants are cheaper than renewables and will be for decades.

    From opium and tobacco industries to modern day coal, the power of capitalism to allow products and processes (especially because of power of democracy) to cling on way beyond the point of social good is astonishing.

    And yet here we are, tearing down soviet memes and convincing people that gulags are the real problem in today's society.
    You might want to consider the role of the Federal Government in subsidization of power sources in your next screed on Capitalism.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

    When you can buy government protection for your industry, and when money=speech, you don't get to fall back on the "government enablers" argument. The reason the government continues to subsidize shitty technologies like coal is because the coal industry wants it that way, not because government is "at fault" for ill-advised policy.


    If a shift is what we need, then a discussion of public policy on energy subsidization is what we need to have.
    "The market just isn't free enough!", cried the liberal. The government should stop picking sides!

  6. #39966
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    Nah, given the power of capitalism to advertise, lobby, coerce and corrupt, I'm pretty sure I've got it covered thanks.

  7. #39967
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    The energy industries are a perfect example of how combining capitalism with Government control (pretend socialism) can go terribly wrong.

    The energy industry lives for subsidies. The Government knows that voters hate high energy prices. So the Government subsidies energy, but the energy companies keep it as extra profit. And those subsidies remove any need to innovate or adapt because why spend money on R&D or new forms of energy when you can milk government.

    Better still get the Government to regulate so you keep new competitors out.

    And those voters pay for the lot through their taxes anyway.

  8. #39968

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post

    From opium and tobacco industries to modern day coal, the power of capitalism to allow products and processes (especially because of power of democracy) to cling on way beyond the point of social good is astonishing.
    And the fact that tobacco and drug consumption are the highest in Russia and China is also the fault of capitalism?

  9. #39969
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post

    From opium and tobacco industries to modern day coal, the power of capitalism to allow products and processes (especially because of power of democracy) to cling on way beyond the point of social good is astonishing.
    And the fact that tobacco and drug consumption are the highest in Russia and China is also the fault of capitalism?
    Haha
    You're basically a meme.

    And what about africa, or India or any other region of the world susceptible to corporate corruption?

    Have you seen the state of the drug epidemic in Appalachia lately?

  10. #39970
    Omega Supreme's Avatar
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    Just gotta drop this, reminder for the Republicans:


  11. #39971

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    The only "change" I want is for the socialist position to get equal schrift in the political process, as it did up until the middle of last century.
    The only reason socialist position got an "equal schrift" until middle of last century was because this position was pushed at the gunpoint. Funny how once USSR collapsed and was unable to prop up puppet "socialist paradises", socialism has disappeared from the body politics. Also funny that now, once Russia managed to get back on its knees again (using money from fossil fuels, btw), suddenly socialism gets pushed again by useful idiots, paid or otherwise.

  12. #39972
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Democracy has always been the biggest thorn in the side of capitalism.

    The ability to vote away the wealth of capitalists was supposed to be the main balance in Adam smith's classical liberal economy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  13. #39973
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    When batteries become widespread...

    I laughed.

    Gas fired power plants are cheaper than renewables and will be for decades.

    From opium and tobacco industries to modern day coal, the power of capitalism to allow products and processes (especially because of power of democracy) to cling on way beyond the point of social good is astonishing.

    And yet here we are, tearing down soviet memes and convincing people that gulags are the real problem in today's society.
    Lol nope. Actually new large scale gas projects have pretty much died in much of Western Europe and needs substantial subsidy to persuade investors to build. The culprit? Intermittent renewables with no marginal startup costs killing their old peaker business model. Most countries are resorting to availability subsidies (literally a fixed monthly payment for existing) for new large scale CCGTs to encourage investment. See: UK's Capacity Mechanism. Even that is not working though - investors can see which way the wind is blowing (BADUM CHHHHHHHH)

  14. #39974
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    The energy industries are a perfect example of how combining capitalism with Government control (pretend socialism) can go terribly wrong.

    The energy industry lives for subsidies. The Government knows that voters hate high energy prices. So the Government subsidies energy, but the energy companies keep it as extra profit. And those subsidies remove any need to innovate or adapt because why spend money on R&D or new forms of energy when you can milk government.

    Better still get the Government to regulate so you keep new competitors out.

    And those voters pay for the lot through their taxes anyway.
    This isnt a very good analysis. At least not in the UK. The UK market is a perfect example of how combining capitalism with Gov control can work very effectively.
    Last edited by Lallante; September 8 2017 at 04:58:41 PM.

  15. #39975
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Yeah here the government just throws money at the French and Chinese to sort out electricity for us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  16. #39976

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post

    Have you seen the state of the drug epidemic in Appalachia lately?
    LOL. Get back to us when Appalachia has Krokodil. Them we'll talk about drug epidemic.

  17. #39977
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post

    Have you seen the state of the drug epidemic in Appalachia lately?
    LOL. Get back to us when Appalachia has Krokodil. Them we'll talk about drug epidemic.
    Whataboutism at its absolutely finest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  18. #39978
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    The only "change" I want is for the socialist position to get equal schrift in the political process, as it did up until the middle of last century.
    The only reason socialist position got an "equal schrift" until middle of last century was because this position was pushed at the gunpoint. Funny how once USSR collapsed and was unable to prop up puppet "socialist paradises", socialism has disappeared from the body politics. Also funny that now, once Russia managed to get back on its knees again (using money from fossil fuels, btw), suddenly socialism gets pushed again by useful idiots, paid or otherwise.


    Not even Republicans can win elections preaching the value of limited government and the free market.

    Good luck continuing to think capitalism has won when its half way through eating itself.

  19. #39979

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post

    Have you seen the state of the drug epidemic in Appalachia lately?
    LOL. Get back to us when Appalachia has Krokodil. Them we'll talk about drug epidemic.
    Whataboutism at its absolutely finest.
    You do understand that he was the first to say "what about drug epidemic in Appalachia", right?

    I merely showed that he has no fucking clue what he's talking about.

  20. #39980

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    Good luck continuing to think capitalism has won when its half way through eating itself.
    Well, at least it has something to eat.

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