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Thread: The Official Russian [USA Politics Thread]™

  1. #39541
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    and all of those technologies are still useless without decent (which we still dont have ) battery tech. another 10 years otoh will more than likely change that.
    And you don't think that process could be accelerated by public spending on R&D?

  2. #39542
    מלך יהודים Zeekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    and all of those technologies are still useless without decent (which we still dont have ) battery tech. another 10 years otoh will more than likely change that.
    And you don't think that process could be accelerated by public spending on R&D?
    earlier in the process yes. nowadays i'm not so sure.

    to clarify i'm really not all that familiar with the state of battery tech r&d and the state of its funding but from what i know companies have been investing silly amounts of money in r&d in the last couple of years.


    

  3. #39543
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    and all of those technologies are still useless without decent (which we still dont have ) battery tech. another 10 years otoh will more than likely change that.
    Again, its a problem with multiple attack vectors. Battery tech (at a grid scale) is one part, and this year is the first year there have been a LOT of commercial projects in that area - 10 years is way too high. Think 5 at most before its a really material part of the mix.

    Secondly there's demand side management through smart metering and aggregation. There are companies that own, say, supermarkets - they can on demand remotely turn down the freezers in all their supermarkets by 2 degrees for say, 30 minutes at a time without it really affecting their produce. Aggregated, this has a HUGE effect in terms of energy-need reduction, and can be used to smooth spikes in demand or unexpected falloffs in generation - in return the aggregators are paid for their service provision by the network operator (funded through intermittance/imbalance charges on generators/consumers).

    The smart meters that make this kind of cleverness possible also has a secondary effect of making demand-side battery storage (think Tesla wall-packs) more economical through variable pricing over time - especially useful for people with small scale distributed generation (think rooftop solar) - as well as having their own secure energy storage, they can set their batteries to charge not just from their solar panel but from the grid at times of low energy cost, like overnight, and even sell back to the grid only at peak pricing in the afternoon. Consumer price arbitrage which also smooths demand and supply curves!

    Separately many car manufacturers are now designing their electric cars such that when they are plugged in and charging, the grid can discharge small parts of the battery (say, top 5%) on demand to smooth out spikes in demand.

    Then there's the industrial version of the smartmeter change described above - Big industrial users of electricity can improve profit margins by moving shifts to nighttimes when electricity is cheaper, with the knock-on effect of reducing peak demand during the day when electricity is more expensive.

    The message you should be getting from the above is how interlinked all these developments are, and how while even if individually the changes are minor, in aggregate the effect is huge.

    Change isnt just coming, its happening right now, at a breakneck speed, and snowballing in an incredible fashion.

  4. #39544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    and all of those technologies are still useless without decent (which we still dont have ) battery tech. another 10 years otoh will more than likely change that.
    And you don't think that process could be accelerated by public spending on R&D?
    earlier in the process yes. nowadays i'm not so sure.

    to clarify i'm really not all that familiar with the state of battery tech r&d and the state of its funding but from what i know companies have been investing silly amounts of money in r&d in the last couple of years.
    And how much of that private effort is being wasted on duplicative research? IP law means they all have to start from scratch, basically, which means the firms involved are necessarily repeating some of each others' efforts to reach the same place.

  5. #39545

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Absolutely sure.

    Doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see some updates, though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights

    (Funny that all these are taken from Chapter 7 of the '36 Soviet constitution... isn't it?
    Yes, because 1936 Russia was AWESOME!
    No, but 1944 America was pretty damned cool.

    But go ahead and tell me why you think FDR might have arrived at the same conclusions vis-a-vis economic rights as Stalin and the rest of the '36 Soviet constitutional committee.
    Because the FDR government was full of Soviet agents and he refused to do anything about it?

    Do the names of Alger Hiss, Lauchlin Currie, Harry Dexter White mean anything to you?

    No wonder FDR is your hero, he presented half of Europe and China to Russia on a platter.

  6. #39546
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    and all of those technologies are still useless without decent (which we still dont have ) battery tech. another 10 years otoh will more than likely change that.
    And you don't think that process could be accelerated by public spending on R&D?
    earlier in the process yes. nowadays i'm not so sure.

    to clarify i'm really not all that familiar with the state of battery tech r&d and the state of its funding but from what i know companies have been investing silly amounts of money in r&d in the last couple of years.
    And how much of that private effort is being wasted on duplicative research? IP law means they all have to start from scratch, basically, which means the firms involved are necessarily repeating some of each others' efforts to reach the same place.
    This comment demonstrates a misunderstanding of how scientific research and commercial technological development is done. It's not climbing a pre-positioned ladder, its throwing a thousand grappling hooks over a wall and hoping one hooks on.

    Duplication and overlap is valuable, not to be avoided.

    A single state-funded superlab would be awful - think of the decades spent following technological dead-ends while promising alternative developments are missed!

    This area (tech R&D and development to commercial operation) is pretty much the single best argument for capitalism - let success, cost and creative destruction dictate the winners, not bureaucrats!

    There is a role for the state here - tax breaks and grants for private sector R&D. Not doing the R&D itself.

  7. #39547
    Dorvil Barranis's Avatar
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    Hearing Protection Act. . . Orwellian levels of Newspeak there.
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  8. #39548
    מלך יהודים Zeekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    and all of those technologies are still useless without decent (which we still dont have ) battery tech. another 10 years otoh will more than likely change that.
    Again, its a problem with multiple attack vectors. Battery tech (at a grid scale) is one part, and this year is the first year there have been a LOT of commercial projects in that area - 10 years is way too high. Think 5 at most before its a really material part of the mix.

    Secondly there's demand side management through smart metering and aggregation. There are companies that own, say, supermarkets - they can on demand remotely turn down the freezers in all their supermarkets by 2 degrees for say, 30 minutes at a time without it really affecting their produce. Aggregated, this has a HUGE effect in terms of energy-need reduction, and can be used to smooth spikes in demand or unexpected falloffs in generation - in return the aggregators are paid for their service provision by the network operator (funded through intermittance/imbalance charges on generators/consumers).

    The smart meters that make this kind of cleverness possible also has a secondary effect of making demand-side battery storage (think Tesla wall-packs) more economical through variable pricing over time - especially useful for people with small scale distributed generation (think rooftop solar) - as well as having their own secure energy storage, they can set their batteries to charge not just from their solar panel but from the grid at times of low energy cost, like overnight, and even sell back to the grid only at peak pricing in the afternoon. Consumer price arbitrage which also smooths demand and supply curves!

    Separately many car manufacturers are now designing their electric cars such that when they are plugged in and charging, the grid can discharge small parts of the battery (say, top 5%) on demand to smooth out spikes in demand.

    Then there's the industrial version of the smartmeter change described above - Big industrial users of electricity can improve profit margins by moving shifts to nighttimes when electricity is cheaper, with the knock-on effect of reducing peak demand during the day when electricity is more expensive.

    The message you should be getting from the above is how interlinked all these developments are, and how while even if individually the changes are minor, in aggregate the effect is huge.

    Change isnt just coming, its happening right now, at a breakneck speed, and snowballing in an incredible fashion.
    Jezus christ you fuckers just discovered low and high tier electricity pricing... We had that in god damn Jugoslavia... Not to the level you're describing because that was pmuch pointless in those times and would have probably caused the entire network to kill itself.

    As for grid scale battery storage ill believe it when i see it. Currently there is nothing economically feasible on the market.


    

  9. #39549

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    IP law means they all have to start from scratch, basically, which means the firms involved are necessarily repeating some of each others' efforts to reach the same place.
    Holy shit, this is by far the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. And this is coming from someone supposedly learning the law?

    Jesus Christ.
    Last edited by Don Rumata; September 8 2017 at 08:49:26 PM.

  10. #39550
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    So then why did FDR advocate for these things? You think he'd have gone through the fuss to make these ideas a central concept of his political program if he didn't believe in them? The issue of positive economic rights goes all the way back to his '32 campaign. Hiss was never central to the administration, and Currie and White weren't brought in until FDR's second term, well after he'd begun advocating for the platform enumerated most explicitly in his '44 State of the Union address.

    You're asking us to assume that his entire presidency, arguably the most important and successful presidency of our republic's history, was based on the influence of a couple of alleged soviet agents? And that these agents' great betrayal was to convince the president that housing, education, healthcare, and work were fundamental rights? Please. FDR was the most powerful man in the world; arguably the most powerful man the world has ever seen. He didn't do jack shit that he didn't believe was right or proper or just.

  11. #39551

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    When batteries become widespread...

    I laughed.

    Gas fired power plants are cheaper than renewables and will be for decades.

    From opium and tobacco industries to modern day coal, the power of capitalism to allow products and processes (especially because of power of democracy) to cling on way beyond the point of social good is astonishing.

    And yet here we are, tearing down soviet memes and convincing people that gulags are the real problem in today's society.
    You might want to consider the role of the Federal Government in subsidization of power sources in your next screed on Capitalism.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

    When you can buy government protection for your industry, and when money=speech, you don't get to fall back on the "government enablers" argument. The reason the government continues to subsidize shitty technologies like coal is because the coal industry wants it that way, not because government is "at fault" for ill-advised policy.


    If a shift is what we need, then a discussion of public policy on energy subsidization is what we need to have.
    "The market just isn't free enough!", cried the liberal. The government should stop picking sides!
    Predictable "voters bear no responsibility, Government bears no responsibility, it's all those dirty capitalists!" trope. I keep forgetting how little responsibility you folks assign to anyone for what they do.

    And yes, the State can and should pick sides.
    Voters only bear responsibility to the extent that they have an impact on policy choices made by government. In the United States, there is virtually no correlation between voter policy preference and enacted policy. Instead, policy preferences are dictated by the rich spending money, to the tune of something like a 98-99 fold preference.

    The US is an oligarchy, with its government firmly captured by the capitalist class. The voters have nothing to do with it. We make believe we're a democratic republic because doing so maintains order, but it's not the truth of things.

    Government bears responsibility only according to the sources of its control. Where voters control, voters and government share responsibility. Where capital controls, capital and government share responsibility.

    And yes, the state absolutely should pick sides—the people's side. But that can't happen under our current system, because our constitution lacks any kind of meaningful defense against regulatory capture.
    I dream of a world where voters realize how much the Government does, how vital what they do is, and how important it is to be informed and to participate and vote.

    I believe that, combined with a better education system, would make a real difference. I believe in the people, and the power they possess, even if the do not wield is wisely today.


    Fuck yeah, common ground established!

    I understand and appreciate that you do not, and believe the moneyed interests are far too powerful for the electorate to overcome.
    Oh wait, no, you're still being a cunt who refuses to pay attention to what I'm actually saying. Of course the electorate has the power to take things back. That's why the Constitution is so fucking awesome, and why I took an oath to uphold it. Jesus fucking Christ. If I believed the moneyed interests were too powerful, why would I be devoting my legal career to pushing back against them, and why would I bother advocating for change?
    Ok, fair. Perhaps I haven't paid enough attention, haven't tried to truly understand your view, or have lumped you (prejudiced) you with others here.

    I'll try and do better.




  12. #39552
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    P.S. I can't read!
    Holy shit, read closely ffs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII
    necessarily repeating someof each other's efforts
    And I assure you that in cutting edge, high-reward fields like battery development, plenty of research is being duplicated, because private labs aren't going to publicize breakthroughs until they're ready to patent shit. Obviously prior art can be licensed, or used freely if it's in the public domain. But prior art doesn't get you magic insta-charging non-explosive high capacity batteries, or we'd already have the damned things. Applied research is required, and applied research isn't going to be freely shared by for-profit firms because it undercuts their ability to recoup their investment.

    My question to Zeekar was "How much duplicative effort do you think is going on, and do you think that's wasteful?" Nothing more, nothing less.
    Last edited by Lachesis VII; September 8 2017 at 09:00:16 PM.

  13. #39553
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    A single state-funded superlab would be awful - think of the decades spent following technological dead-ends while promising alternative developments are missed.
    EG (enigma, manhattan, apollo, arpanet, cern etc)

    The great expansion of the technological horizon, is publicly funded academia's greatest gift to the world, and yet...
    Last edited by Pattern; September 8 2017 at 09:03:06 PM.

  14. #39554

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    The FDR great betrayal was believing that he needed Soviet help against badly beaten Japan, giving up Yugoslavia, giving up China, returning Soviet citizens to Russia to meet a certain death ("Operation Keelhaul"), and almost going ahead with the Morgenthau Plan, which would have destroyed Germany as a nation.

    Go ahead, keep bleating about "most powerful man the world has even seen", one who gave away half of the civilized world to Stalin.

  15. #39555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Voters only bear responsibility to the extent that they have an impact on policy choices made by government.
    No, I'm sorry, but the people who voted for Trump deserve the ultimate responsibility for him.
    meh

  16. #39556
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    and all of those technologies are still useless without decent (which we still dont have ) battery tech. another 10 years otoh will more than likely change that.
    And you don't think that process could be accelerated by public spending on R&D?
    earlier in the process yes. nowadays i'm not so sure.

    to clarify i'm really not all that familiar with the state of battery tech r&d and the state of its funding but from what i know companies have been investing silly amounts of money in r&d in the last couple of years.
    And how much of that private effort is being wasted on duplicative research? IP law means they all have to start from scratch, basically, which means the firms involved are necessarily repeating some of each others' efforts to reach the same place.
    Yeah, no, that's not how R&D and actual innovation work.
    meh

  17. #39557

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    A single state-funded superlab would be awful - think of the decades spent following technological dead-ends while promising alternative developments are missed.
    EG (enigma, manhattan, apollo, darpanet, cern etc) .
    Funny how all those successful technological projects have happened in inefficient and corrupt capitalist countries, and not in well-planned and efficient socialist ones.

  18. #39558
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    and all of those technologies are still useless without decent (which we still dont have ) battery tech. another 10 years otoh will more than likely change that.
    And you don't think that process could be accelerated by public spending on R&D?
    earlier in the process yes. nowadays i'm not so sure.

    to clarify i'm really not all that familiar with the state of battery tech r&d and the state of its funding but from what i know companies have been investing silly amounts of money in r&d in the last couple of years.
    And how much of that private effort is being wasted on duplicative research? IP law means they all have to start from scratch, basically, which means the firms involved are necessarily repeating some of each others' efforts to reach the same place.
    This comment demonstrates a misunderstanding of how scientific research and commercial technological development is done. It's not climbing a pre-positioned ladder, its throwing a thousand grappling hooks over a wall and hoping one hooks on.

    Duplication and overlap is valuable, not to be avoided.

    A single state-funded superlab would be awful - think of the decades spent following technological dead-ends while promising alternative developments are missed!

    This area (tech R&D and development to commercial operation) is pretty much the single best argument for capitalism - let success, cost and creative destruction dictate the winners, not bureaucrats!

    There is a role for the state here - tax breaks and grants for private sector R&D. Not doing the R&D itself.
    Because the government has never set up competing laboratories before, have they?

    I agree with you in principle for the vast majority of research tasks. The two areas where I disagree are: 1) on basic research, of the kind carried out by universities, where there is no immediate application to the knowledge gained and thus no commercial incentive; and 2) really big problems where there is a clearly defined goal or outcome and significant investment is needed.

    The middle, which makes up the bulk of situations, is best handled by nongovernmental interests.

  19. #39559
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Voters only bear responsibility to the extent that they have an impact on policy choices made by government.
    No, I'm sorry, but the people who voted for Trump deserve the ultimate responsibility for him.
    Trump is an atypical case in American history where voter choices are likely to have significant policy impacts. Of course those impacts are not going to be the ones that Trump's voters want, but yes, they do bear responsibility.

    In general, however, only elite preferences shape policy: https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/...litics.doc.pdf
    Last edited by Lachesis VII; September 8 2017 at 09:10:09 PM.

  20. #39560
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    A single state-funded superlab would be awful - think of the decades spent following technological dead-ends while promising alternative developments are missed.
    EG (enigma, manhattan, apollo, darpanet, cern etc) .
    Funny how all those successful technological projects have happened in inefficient and corrupt capitalist countries, and not in well-planned and efficient socialist ones.
    Radio?
    Solar Cell?
    Sputnik?
    Tokamak?
    Mir?

    Probably all russian propaganda.

    I wonder how much russia's invented since no longer being communist.
    Last edited by Pattern; September 8 2017 at 09:16:40 PM.

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