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Thread: The Questionably Fascist [USA Politics Thread]™

  1. #39701
    Rakshasa The Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    It's not the Presidents power to create new laws out of thin air or to decide to ignore entire volumes of existing law because something something feelings.

    If we want Immigration Law changed, we have a Congress for that.

    If they refuse to change it, then it doesn't get changed.

    If that pisses you off, win some elections about it.

    I'm curious, does the UK have anything similar to DACA in it's immigration laws? Could the PM simply decree something like DACA and have it be the new law?

    Make Congress do their jobs. And if support isn't there, well that's how it works.
    It's called the EU Parliament.
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  2. #39702

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    Putin literally called Trump his bitch.


  3. #39703
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    cuck'd

  4. #39704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Rumata View Post
    The tweet'er is not up on the gender fluidity of marriage.

    Putin might have been referring to Trump as a interdimensional 'God Emperor'-kin bride, and himself as the a trans-capitalistic cis-botox old-impaired groom.
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  5. #39705
    Super Baderator DonorGlobal Moderator cullnean's Avatar
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    You would be bearable if you had an ounce of humour.

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  6. #39706
    Super Chillerator Global Moderator teds :D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cullnean View Post
    You would be bearable if you had an ounce of humour.

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    and even then nahhhh not really

  7. #39707
    Donor Aea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    It's not the Presidents power to create new laws out of thin air or to decide to ignore entire volumes of existing law because something something feelings.

    If we want Immigration Law changed, we have a Congress for that.

    If they refuse to change it, then it doesn't get changed.

    If that pisses you off, win some elections about it.

    I'm curious, does the UK have anything similar to DACA in it's immigration laws? Could the PM simply decree something like DACA and have it be the new law?

    Make Congress do their jobs. And if support isn't there, well that's how it works.

    Where to begin here. Executive branch is responsible for the enforcement of laws. Setting enforcement priorities is part of it's responsibilities.

    If the legislature is ambiguous about how the law should be enforced then that falls to the executive to decide. The judiciary can also get involved but that's a reactionary and not proactive.

    The last couple of congresses absolutely refused to touch the issue with a ten foot pole. So of course while they did nothing to address the problem they were quick to blame Obama. But of course not enough to actually even try and pass or amend any laws.

    Regardless DACA encouraged young illegals who basically had no volition in coming to the US to step out of the legal shadow, get registered, etc.

    Now Mr Trump and Sessions are coming along and changing policy. Their argument is that its unconstitutional. Which is frankly bullshit of the highest order coming from this administration. So they're abolishing the program and planning on notifying immigration enforcement if congress can't deal with it, on a relatively short time period.

    So effectively what we have is a program that had children and young adults register for the sin of their fathers. And that registry is going to be used to persecute them. Unless a dysfunctional congress can act in time to stop it.

    Gee, fascism lite is probably a bit of an understatement.


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  8. #39708
    Rakshasa The Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cullnean View Post
    You would be bearable if you had an ounce of humour.
    You would be a good moderator if you
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  9. #39709

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    I'm curious, does the UK have anything similar to DACA in it's immigration laws?
    No. DACA is a consequence of US citizenship laws, or rather their insanity. Let's say you've got two persons, neither of them have US citizens for parents.

    One is born in the united states and then moves to Mexico the day after, never comes back and frankly forgets they're even part American. Not only are they a fully fledged American citizen but will be hounded down by the IRS for taxes for the rest of their lives.

    The other is born in Mexico a hundred yards from the border and moves to the united states illegally the very next day, grows up a good American child frankly forgetting they've even got a Mexican connection. Not only are they effectively banned from obtaining citizenship but will be hounded by ICE for the rest of their living days under threat of a deportation to a country they've never even really seen.

    Like, what the fuck America. And now you're going to make it even worse by revoking the right to remain and right to work from those who were granted it just a few years ago. You're literally trying to deport english speaking, fully employed, taxpaying Americans.

    There are a few tiers of legislation that would stop that in the UK

    1) Citizenship is based on parentage and/or residency, not where you're born
    2) The crimes of the parent (i.e. illegal immigration) would not be held against the child; someone who has grown up in the country would be granted indefinite leave to remain and eventually citizenship with no questions asked. This would be highly unusual as schools, jobs, housing etc. are all required to validate residency status so living long term, illegal-but-stable lives is nigh on impossible.
    3) Deporting someone to a country with which they have no practical connection or means of support is a gross violation of their human rights and is illegal regardless of their citizenship status (as much as the government may attempt to do it every now and then for shits and gigS)


    Could the PM simply decree something like DACA and have it be the new law?
    No. Our executive has extremely limited direct powers. Its power rests in its ability to (usually) command an absolute majority in parliament, not its ability to pass decree. Certain powers are delegated to the executive, but are explicit, highly restricted, must be executed in an impartial manner in support of the legislation granting them and are generally subject to judicial review.


    For slightly more light hearted consequences of similarly insane laws, take a look at what is currently happening in Australia's parliament, where having dual citizenship is a disqualification. As most Australians have at least one grandparent of western european ancestry it turns out quite a large number of their MPs and Senators have dual citizenship and never even realised it and have had to step down.

  10. #39710
    Straight Hustlin's Avatar
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    I don't really have a horse in this race but when you get down to it this is sadly the consequence of essentially enacting legislation through executive orders.

    What can be done with one or stroke can be undone by another and unfortunately 300k people are going to get burned for it

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  11. #39711
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight Hustlin View Post
    I don't really have a horse in this race but when you get down to it this is sadly the consequence of essentially enacting legislation through executive orders.

    What can be done with one or stroke can be undone by another and unfortunately 300k people are going to get burned for it

    Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk
    Which again is the problem with the US system in general as Presidents fairly often do not command a majority in congress, even when their party technically does.

    The whole thing is of course designed intentionally so that it is difficult to do things and power is widely spread, but it does also act as a fairly significant barrier to permanent major reforms that could be positive as well.



  12. #39712
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  13. #39713
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoffl View Post
    paywall
    Steph to the rescue once again; something something ethicks in jurnalizm

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  14. #39714
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    Texas: "We had the most expensive storm in US history!"

    Florida: "Hold my beer"
    Actually an '06.

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  15. #39715
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    Where to begin here. Executive branch is responsible for the enforcement of laws. Setting enforcement priorities is part of it's responsibilities.
    Priorities, not wholesale political-based executive-driven amnesty programs.

    Again, laws should be changed by Congress if they need changed.

    If the legislature is ambiguous about how the law should be enforced then that falls to the executive to decide.
    The legislature was not ambiguous, they passed the laws as they were written.

    The judiciary can also get involved but that's a reactionary and not proactive.
    Agreed, and it's generally only for questions of constitutionality.

    The last couple of congresses absolutely refused to touch the issue with a ten foot pole. So of course while they did nothing to address the problem they were quick to blame Obama. But of course not enough to actually even try and pass or amend any laws.
    Which means the law, as written, is the law. You do not and should not re-legislate by executive fiat because Congress is locked in disagreement. Tie goes to existing law.

    Regardless DACA encouraged young illegals who basically had no volition in coming to the US to step out of the legal shadow, get registered, etc.
    And gets them access to a variety of fiscal benefits. Yes, I'm well aware.

    Now Mr Trump and Sessions are coming along and changing policy.
    When you rule by Executive Policy, you die by Executive policy.

    Their argument is that its unconstitutional.
    That's up to a court to decide, which these days could mean anything.

    Which is frankly bullshit of the highest order coming from this administration.
    We all hate and distrust this Administration.

    So effectively what we have is a program that had children and young adults register for the sin of their fathers.
    I'm shocked you'd even admit there was a sin involved at all.

    And that registry is going to be used to persecute them. Unless a dysfunctional congress can act in time to stop it.
    If the people agree with you, the mid-term elections are a thing. Like I said, win some elections about it.

    Gee, fascism lite is probably a bit of an understatement.
    Give that hyperactive hyperbole shit a rest mate. Enforcing immigration law isn't facism for fucks sake.


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  16. #39716
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    meh

  17. #39717

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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    No. Our executive has extremely limited direct powers. Its power rests in its ability to (usually) command an absolute majority in parliament, not its ability to pass decree. Certain powers are delegated to the executive, but are explicit, highly restricted, must be executed in an impartial manner in support of the legislation granting them and are generally subject to judicial review.
    Thanks to Lall for pointing this out.

    While technically accurate it's important to clarify that while powers must be explicitly granted and are restricted etc. etc., there's nothing stopping parliament passing laws essentially granting ministers carte blanche to do what they want within a given area.

    For example this is how a lot of european law is legally implemented in the UK. To quote:

    (2)Subject to Schedule 2 to this Act, at any time after its passing Her Majesty may by Order in Council, and any designated Minister or department may [F21by order, rules, regulations or scheme] , make provision—
    (a)for the purpose of implementing any [F22EU obligation] of the United Kingdom
    ...
    It's also quite how the government would like to handle brexit, but that's a lot more contentious.

  18. #39718
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post


    Absolutely smashing
    This is actually really good. It really unpicks all the standard centre and alt- right talking points.
    "Oblivious centrists picking up alt-right talking points" should be the title of this thread imo.
    I finally managed to give it a watch and thought bringing it back up might be a good idea, it is very good and feels like a straight up reading of a fair few people in these very threads. Our 'extreme centrists' might really want to have a careful watch tbfh.

    I remember running into Contra a while ago while watching Hbomberguy, another really good youtuber at tearing this bullshit apart, although more into the 'youtube rationalist/sceptic' community. Never actually watched many videos though, might have to do more now.
    So I sat down and had a watch at this video and I thou-

    >"I'm not a fascist" is exactly what a fascist would say



    Is this satire?
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  19. #39719
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    I managed about 1 minute and 10 seconds before I turned it off. I really couldn't give a shit.

  20. #39720
    Super Moderator Global Moderator QuackBot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cullnean View Post
    You would be bearable if you had an ounce of humour.

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