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Thread: M [USA Politics Thread] GA!

  1. #1861
    Alistair's Avatar
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    That post is proof positive Barth is just a troll.

    A troll best ignored, tbqh.
    "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong." Jean-Jacques Rousseau



  2. #1862
    Keorythe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenta View Post
    The idea that the realities of the founding of this nation has anything to do with current events and current political parties is laughable and not worth debating.
    I concede, you are correct.

  3. #1863
    Donor Tellenta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenta View Post
    The idea that the realities of the founding of this nation has anything to do with current events and current political parties is laughable and not worth debating.
    I concede, you are correct.
    We all bite the troll from time to time.

  4. #1864
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Could a 'President Bernie Sanders' deliver?

    (CNN)America is suddenly feeling "the Bern" -- the political momentum that seems to be lifting Bernie Sanders, who is drawing huge crowds wherever he goes, including roughly 28,000 fans in Portland and over 17,500 in Los Angeles. Celebrities such as Sarah Silverman and Mark Ruffalo are singing his praises, and California rapper "Lil B The Based God" this week pulled away from Hillary Clinton and is endorsing Sanders.

    A recent Quinnipiac University poll suggests that the Vermont senator would handsomely best Donald Trump in a head-to-head national election in 2016, if they were the two left standing (although so would Clinton and Joe Biden). This is not surprising to those of us who know Sanders.

    It's worth thinking about what this might look like: President Bernie Sanders.

    I've lived in Vermont for nearly four decades, and I've watched Bernie (everyone here calls him Bernie) at work, listening to him carefully since he first won the mayor's job in Burlington in 1981. I've read his position papers, listened to many of his speeches and attended his town hall-type forums, even talked to him personally about the issues that concern him. Most Vermonters know him well, and we have a pretty good idea about what he might attempt to do in the Oval Office.

    What does he say he'd do?

    His laundry list of proposals includes campaign finance reform -- an issue he approaches with passion -- and a strong desire to fight climate change in real ways.

    He also says he would find ways to make higher education more affordable.

    With regard to Wall Street, he wants to break up the big banks and discourage high-risk investment strategies of the kind that brought down the U.S. economy in 2008.

    He would push for a single-payer, universal health care system, not unlike what now exists in Canada, Europe and most developed industrial countries.

    He would increase taxes on the wealthiest 2% of Americans and work to alleviate the tax burden for the middle class.

    On foreign policy, he would avoid sending troops to the Middle East or anywhere else, except when the United States is directly threatened.

    On guns, he would reach for a middle ground, supporting hunters, finding ways to discourage the use of automatic weapons and handguns.

    He laid out these proposals, and many others, when he announced his candidacy in the spring.

    But he has also more recently addressed such issues as the racial divide in this country and immigration, even though a number of activists from the Black Lives Matter movement in Seattle recently shut him down on stage. It is strange to silence a voice like his, as Sanders has been a campaigner for racial justice since his college days and has released a comprehensive racial justice platform.

    And he has outlined positions on immigration that go beyond President Barack Obama's efforts, with sweeping reforms to the current, broken system. He supported the failed federal Dream Act, which would have given temporary legal status to many undocumented young people who came to the United States, and he has been vocal about the exploitation of undocumented immigrants, noting that they often live in "unspeakably inhumane conditions" with scant access to medical care. But he has also in the past resisted some aspects of immigration reform, such as guest worker programs, out of concern, he said, that American workers would be affected.

    Still, in all, his platforms on key issues are breathtaking in their ambition. But can he deliver?

    Let's look at how he has fared in Vermont. He has, in fact, been an outspoken, bold and effective senator.

    To members of Congress, like him, of course, some of the larger goals -- such as campaign finance reform -- remain out of easy reach. The Supreme Court's 2010 decision in the Citizens United case, which opened the floodgates to an unprecedented surge of outside money into electoral politics, saw to that.

    Nevertheless, in December Sanders introduced a bill of amendment to the U.S. Constitution attempting to roll back the decision in order to "protect the integrity and fairness of the electoral process." The bill failed, but it is worth reading it carefully, as it provides a blueprint for changing the system in ways that will allow ordinary citizens an equal voice in elections.

    On climate change, Sanders joined with Sen. Barbara Boxer to propose charging corporations for their carbon emissions and says he would use these fees to bolster green technology. He has slammed those, such as Sen. Jim Inhofe, who deny that any problem exists. Says Sanders: "The bottom line is that when Senator Inhofe says global warming is a hoax, he is just dead wrong, according to the vast majority of climate scientists."

    On economic matters, Sanders -- a self-declared "democratic socialist" -- has never minced words, showing a disdain for big banks that ignore the needs of ordinary people.

    In 2014, from the floor of the Senate, he declared: "If Wall Street lobbyists can literally write a provision into law that will allow too-big-to-fail banks to make the same risky bets that nearly destroyed our economy just a few years ago, it should be obvious to all that their incredible economic and political power is a huge danger to our economy and our way of life."

    And Sanders has long advocated taxing the wealthiest Americans and lessening the tax burden on the middle class -- as in a classic Sanders takedown to the Senate Budget Committee over the Republican myth about "job creators" deserving huge tax breaks. As he put it, "The real job creators are those millions of Americans who every day go out and purchase goods and services -- and if they don't have adequate income, the economy suffers."

    By contrast, Sander's Republican rivals mainly want to lower taxes on the rich, touting "trickle down" economics, an idea that was popular on the right under President Ronald Reagan. This argument runs that if the wealthy succeed, their money creates jobs and ultimately seeps down into the pockets of the less fortunate. But even the right-leaning Forbes magazine has discredited the idea.

    On foreign policy, Sanders' record is consistent. Indeed, he opposed the Iraq War form the outset.

    Here is what he said before the critical vote in 2003 representing perhaps the worst foreign policy decision in American history: "Mr. Speaker, I do not think any member of this body disagrees that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant, a murderer, and a man who has started two wars. He is clearly someone who cannot be trusted or believed. The question, Mr. Speaker, is not whether we like Saddam Hussein or not. The question is whether he represents an imminent threat to the American people and whether a unilateral invasion of Iraq will do more harm than good."

    It's worth watching the whole speech on video, as it shows what sort of man we have in Bernie Sanders: A brave and sensible patriot, I would argue, who would carefully weigh his decisions in the Oval Office, never shooting before he talks.

    He has also been sensible on gun control, supporting the right of rural people to have guns for hunting. "We have millions of people who are gun owners in this country -- 99.9% of those people obey the law," Sanders recently said. "I want to see real, serious debate and action on guns, but it is not going to take place if we simply have extreme positions on both sides. I think I can bring us to the middle."

    Somewhere in the middle on gun control? Well, there it is.

    I don't doubt the difficulties a President Sanders would face from his first day in office.

    There would be massive opposition to his ideas on many fronts, from the Supreme Court to Congress to the tea party to even some on the left. The wealthiest 2% would squeal, as would major corporations, and they would fund lobbyists who would attempt to fight any legislation that threatened business as usual, which has worked very well for those in the highest tax brackets, although not so well for those below them.

    But as Americans will vividly learn when the Democratic Party debates begin, Bernie Sanders is extremely smart and well-informed. And he doesn't back down in a fight. Vermonters already know this.

    As president, he would take his agenda to the country and without flinching. And he might just convince Americans to support legislation that would actually benefit them in the long run and even in the short run.

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/11/opinio...ers/index.html
    "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong." Jean-Jacques Rousseau



  5. #1865
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Not a popular viewpoint, obviously, as many think (D) should get to help choose (R)'s candidate, and vice versa.
    Citation needed?
    Soon as you provide yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Overall, and historically the US is a liberal country.
    Citation please?
    Gladly!

    This thing here:

    Pretty liberal for its day and age. So were all those that signed it. Pretty much all liberals. Despite all the slavery and all that.
    It was? It was built on principles that already existed and took it's cues from many other nation States. The previous Articles of Confederation, the original Magna Carta, and the Dutch Constitution were it's prime influence. It's a bit of an irony that a Brit is sitting here telling us how representation is "liberal" when our independence kicked off due to the lack of representation that was given to all UK citizens.

    "We claim nothing but the liberty and privileges of Englishmen in the same degree, as if we had continued among our brethren in Great Britain." -George Mason

    So you see, the US started out as a liberal experiment that, surprisingly worked out. Sort off. You can still find the liberalism of the founders in all its institutions etc. to this day (except for that slavery thing, well, mostly ...). Look it up some time?
    Liberal? Nope. Libertarian? Most definitely. The Founders were anti-Authoritarian as a result of the British Monarchy's bad choices and parliament's weakness. The draft of the Constitution was extremely contentious as it was to place a large amount of federal power over other States hence why powers were kept to a minimum and States given much more domain. The arguments that they were liberal are almost laughable and fall on all "Republicans are bad and Liberals are progressive and different means progressive". They had more in common with Ron Paul than anyone liberal.
    Hahaha, the butthurt from the wingnuts about this is hilarious.

    Woohoohoo, how dare anyone suggest that the US constitution is a liberal document!

    But ofcourse it was, and, still is.

    It was indeed build on principles and ideas that were doing the rounds in Europe, including the UK (but mostly in France and the Netherlands). Liberal principles and ideals! I didn't say that it was anything new. I said it they are liberal.

    And yes, it was based on the liberal (limiting of absolute powers) principles from the Magna Carta. And indeed, the Dutch Constitution, one of the, if not the most liberal constitution of its day (Notably a republic at this time, and still, though a parliamentary monarchy, one of the most liberal countries on the planet).

    And since that time, liberalism has been everywhere in the US. It's almost in the bones of the country as it were. To this day little children (are) still (forced to) recite the Gettysburg address; still hailing one of those core liberal ideas: "that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

    There was nothing 'conservative' (which mostly meant 'monarchist' in those days), about the founding of the US, or its constitution. However much the conservatives have lately tried to reclaim the constitution for their side only.

    And there is nothing libertarian about the constitution either. If the Jeffersons etc. were somehow libertarians in the Ron Pail strain, why did they propose all these liberal federal government institutions etc.? How about all that authority invested in the presidency? All this nonsense is just the libertards trying to rewrite history in the image of Ayn Rand (shudder) again.

    Nor were the founding fathers against (big) government, or, in principle, against authority as such. They were against monarchy, and absolute power/authority. Like the liberals that they were, they recognised the need for checks and balances. So they came up with, well, "government of the people, by the people, and for the people", a liberal(-democratic) core principle if ever there was one.

    So, however much you wingnuts may not like it: overall, and historically, since its founding in fact, the US is, and has always been, a liberal country. Based on, and infused with, core liberal ideas and principles. At times it's people get scared or agitated into forgetting the past (and how badly the conservatives fuck it up when in power) and cause the pendulum to swing away to the right for a while. But then they remember again (mostly because everything has gone FUBAR again), and then it always comes back to its natural liberal resting place.

    But please, go on throwing a hissy fit over this, it's hilarious ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  6. #1866
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Clinton Email Server being turned over to Justice dept. today.

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/11/politi...ent/index.html
    "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong." Jean-Jacques Rousseau



  7. #1867
    Phrixus Zephyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    blahblahblah
    Nice strawman.

    The statement that started this little thread of discussion was that the left is a numerical minority among the electorate. Not whether or not the constitution is a 'liberal' document.

  8. #1868
    Alistair's Avatar
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    "Sanders Surge" underway.

    Quote Originally Posted by CNN
    His impact on the race is becoming more acute. A Franklin Pierce University/Boston Herald poll this week found that Sanders is overtaking Clinton in New Hampshire, winning the support of 44% of voters compared to 37% for the former secretary of state. The findings aren't entirely surprising considering Sanders represents neighboring Vermont in the Senate. Still, they could give Clinton's camp pause at a time when she is also grappling with a host of other negative headlines related to her email scandal and polling that indicates the public doesn't trust her.
    Man, I would looooooooove to think Sanders has a legit chance to beat Hillary, but it's just so unrealistic frankly.

    It'd almost be as silly a thought as her losing to an unknown first term black guy no one had ever heard of before......

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/13/politi...rge/index.html
    "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong." Jean-Jacques Rousseau



  9. #1869
    Alistair's Avatar
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    FOX News admitting (in an offhanded way) that the ACA/Obamacare is working at the goal of lowering the number of uninsured.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015...?intcmp=hplnws

    Must have killed them to admit even this much.
    "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong." Jean-Jacques Rousseau



  10. #1870
    Donor AmaNutin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    FOX News admitting (in an offhanded way) that the ACA/Obamacare is working at the goal of lowering the number of uninsured.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015...?intcmp=hplnws

    Must have killed them to admit even this much.
    An act of god seems more likely.
    Audacter calumniare, semper aliquid haeret

    "The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt"
    Bertrand Russell - the Triumph of Stupidity (1933)

    "The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity." -Yeats, 1919


    Quote Originally Posted by thebomby View Post
    I find it incredible that a whole country can actually be more retarded than FHC.

  11. #1871
    Donor Tellenta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    FOX News admitting (in an offhanded way) that the ACA/Obamacare is working at the goal of lowering the number of uninsured.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015...?intcmp=hplnws

    Must have killed them to admit even this much.
    The doublethink... or octuplethink required for fox news to say what they said in that article is amazing. Does fox also have an article close to the same date saying the economy is getting worse under Obama because that would be golden.

  12. #1872
    Movember 2012 I Legionnaire's Avatar
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    I kinda want to vote for him just to see what would happen if he won.

  13. #1873
    Larkonis Trassler's Avatar
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    So what are the chances of some major blowback on Shillary over 'Servergate'?

    Sanders vs Trump would be a hilarious outcome.


  14. #1874
    Donor Tellenta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    So what are the chances of some major blowback on Shillary over 'Servergate'?

    Sanders vs Trump would be a hilarious outcome.
    Probably minimal, I don't recall a politician ever getting anything more that called mean names by politicians and the media for using non-government communications.

  15. #1875
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    So what are the chances of some major blowback on Shillary over 'Servergate'?

    Sanders vs Trump would be a hilarious outcome.
    What Gate. Hillary did nothing wrong whatsoever.

    All accusations against her are baseless sexism/politics of the kind she, a strong woman, has had to deal with from the far-fringe-edge-right-wing since she entered the political world.

    President Elect Hillary, I should say.
    "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong." Jean-Jacques Rousseau



  16. #1876
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    So what are the chances of some major blowback on Shillary over 'Servergate'?

    Sanders vs Trump would be a hilarious outcome.
    What Gate. Hillary did nothing wrong whatsoever.

    All accusations against her are baseless sexism/politics of the kind she, a strong woman, has had to deal with from the far-fringe-edge-right-wing since she entered the political world.

    President Elect Hillary, I should say.
    If she gets elected will you fuck off back to Scotland?

  17. #1877
    XenosisReaper
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    So what are the chances of some major blowback on Shillary over 'Servergate'?

    Sanders vs Trump would be a hilarious outcome.
    What Gate. Hillary did nothing wrong whatsoever.

    All accusations against her are baseless sexism/politics of the kind she, a strong woman, has had to deal with from the far-fringe-edge-right-wing since she entered the political world.

    President Elect Hillary, I should say.
    This entire post made me undeniably angry for at least 4 different reasons, well done tbh

  18. #1878
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    So what are the chances of some major blowback on Shillary over 'Servergate'?

    Sanders vs Trump would be a hilarious outcome.
    If you ask me: None. She handed over her thumbdrive. Has she handed over the server as well? If not, then soon enough. And if they find anything at all, it'll be very minor. Currently it sounds like: "we don't do that any more, but at that time there was nothing illegal about it."

    The GOP will then try to run with it anyway, and will end up looking pretty silly when the official verdict comes out and says: meh.

    It's just your typical GOP witchhunt, and unless they can come up with something better than 'hgggnnnn, private email server!!!!ELEVEN!!!', all but the haters will tune out soon enough.

    Unfortunately, because I like Sanders a lot better than I like Hillary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  19. #1879
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varcaus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    So what are the chances of some major blowback on Shillary over 'Servergate'?

    Sanders vs Trump would be a hilarious outcome.
    What Gate. Hillary did nothing wrong whatsoever.

    All accusations against her are baseless sexism/politics of the kind she, a strong woman, has had to deal with from the far-fringe-edge-right-wing since she entered the political world.

    President Elect Hillary, I should say.
    If she gets elected will you fuck off back to Scotland?
    Please, no ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  20. #1880
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Hillary did nothing wrong whatsoever.
    What exactly did Hillary do wrong then, Alistair?

    No seriously. Not the rant. Not the conspiracy theories. In this particular case: what was it that she did wrong?

    Because I've read about some of this stuff, and I can't help thinking: yeah, so? Am I missing something?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

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