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Thread: G.ame O.ver P.edophile [USA Politics Thread]

  1. #11861
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elriche Oshego View Post
    And as Alistair has said, it is the States rights to legislate such laws. Again, if you had any idea of the vast diversity within the USA you'd realize some states are lagging with respect to modern ideas.
    heh, you called it diversity

    I dont think many americans are losing sleep over rapists and murderers losing their right to vote though

    The problem is that the 'justice' system is a bit too uh, broad with what it defines as a felon. Ending the war on drugs would do a lot to fix this.
    Last edited by Approaching Walrus; September 23 2016 at 04:23:24 PM.

  2. #11862
    Movember 2012 Elriche Oshego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Elriche Oshego View Post
    And as Alistair has said, it is the States rights to legislate such laws. Again, if you had any idea of the vast diversity within the USA you'd realize some states are lagging with respect to modern ideas.
    heh, you called it diversity
    Strictly speaking the US is quite diverse ethnically and culturally.

  3. #11863
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Wait, if you serve a prison sentence in the US, you can't vote either after you've served that time?
    That is correct, in some States. The power to bar felons from voting is a State power, and based on the Constitution granting States that authority.

    The United States is, as a whole, one of the most aggressive in barring felons from voting.
    Which, you surely agree, is retarded?

    You do know that it is based on the eugenics idea that there is such a thing as a 'criminal mind', that it can not be rehabilitated, and from which the body politic has to be protected, right?

    Just to be on the safe side here, surely then you also know that this has been discredited as pseudo-science (and general idioticy) for almost a century now, right?

    Just checkin'
    If you say so, it must be so.

    What should we do with our felons Barth? In a just society?
    You could start by giving them back their inalienable rights after they've paid their debt against society? Seems like the just thing to do ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  4. #11864
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    Nah. Like do you honestly think that the guy that killed Pim Fortuyn deserves the right to vote?

  5. #11865
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Eh. I think we have a few other issues with regards to criminal justice to solve first before I'm going to worry about whether Bob the child rapist is hard done by his lack of voting rights.
    Granted, more than a few even, but can we at least all agree that it is retarded?

    It's not just about voting rights. As said above, several other rights and opportunities aren't available either. And this can, and does, screw up the lives of those people forever. Creating a permanent underclass of people without means or possibility of rehabilitation. Leading to more recidivism and more, and more violent crime (since they have less to lose). Basically exacerbating the, indeed, massive problems US criminal justice also has.

    Overall I notice a lot of whataboutery going on in this area in the US. Seems like the US is simply incapable (or unwilling) of doing anything, because it keeps going round and round in circles about what's worse and should be tackled first.

    I christen it: 'the ring of bullshit'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  6. #11866
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    You could start by giving them back their inalienable rights after they've paid their debt against society? Seems like the just thing to do ...
    Ah Yes, Rights? We have already considered and discounted that option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Eh. I think we have a few other issues with regards to criminal justice to solve first before I'm going to worry about whether Bob the child rapist is hard done by his lack of voting rights.
    Granted, more than a few even, but can we at least all agree that it is retarded?

    It's not just about voting rights. As said above, several other rights and opportunities aren't available either. And this can, and does, screw up the lives of those people forever. Creating a permanent underclass of people without means or possibility of rehabilitation. Leading to more recidivism and more, and more violent crime (since they have less to lose). Basically exacerbating the, indeed, massive problems US criminal justice also has.

    Overall I notice a lot of whataboutery going on in this area in the US. Seems like the US is simply incapable (or unwilling) of doing anything, because it keeps going round and round in circles about what's worse and should be tackled first.

    I christen it: 'the ring of bullshit'.
    Ah Yes, Rehabilitation? We have already considered and discounted that option.

  7. #11867
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Nah. Like do you honestly think that the guy that killed Pim Fortuyn deserves the right to vote?
    Yes I do. He had a fair trial. He's done his time. He does 'deserve' his rights, and if I'd deny him his, I'd be no better than he is.

    Moreover, he's one guy in, what, 10+ million eligible voters? Democracy is stronger than one shithead voting for something I don't like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  8. #11868
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    You could start by giving them back their inalienable rights after they've paid their debt against society? Seems like the just thing to do ...
    Ah Yes, Rights? We have already considered and discounted that option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Eh. I think we have a few other issues with regards to criminal justice to solve first before I'm going to worry about whether Bob the child rapist is hard done by his lack of voting rights.
    Granted, more than a few even, but can we at least all agree that it is retarded?

    It's not just about voting rights. As said above, several other rights and opportunities aren't available either. And this can, and does, screw up the lives of those people forever. Creating a permanent underclass of people without means or possibility of rehabilitation. Leading to more recidivism and more, and more violent crime (since they have less to lose). Basically exacerbating the, indeed, massive problems US criminal justice also has.

    Overall I notice a lot of whataboutery going on in this area in the US. Seems like the US is simply incapable (or unwilling) of doing anything, because it keeps going round and round in circles about what's worse and should be tackled first.

    I christen it: 'the ring of bullshit'.
    Ah Yes, Rehabilitation? We have already considered and discounted that option.
    You say that, but I don't think you did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  9. #11869

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    He is not asking for anyone to answer for all that. He is asking for personal opinions on the matter, which makes the responses appear like intentional obfuscation.
    Because the personal opinions of a forum made up of 90+% Europeans has relevance to the question?

    Here, let me help, the majority of our FHC posters will strongly object to, and be outraged by, the U.S. Policy, and will say the U.S. should instead be giving Felons more, not less: more support, more understanding, more education, more rehabilitation via more state benefits and job skills and job placement, less punishment, and of course full restoration of all rights, plus a scrubbing of their record so future employers won't know what they did to be felons.

    Sound about right?
    You left out your personal opinion on the matter and blathered on about what a group of other people think. Again.

    Here, I will show you how its done:

    Criminal sentencing should focus just as much on rehabilitation into society as it does on punishment, to reduce re-offending. Rehabilitation should receive just as much funding as punishment.

    The rehabilitation should be considered part of the criminals repayment of their debt to society, so the rights a criminal looses during imprisonment should also be restricted during post-imprisonment rehabilitation, until they become a productive member of society.
    Last edited by Nicholai Pestot; September 23 2016 at 05:30:01 PM.

  10. #11870
    Smuggo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Nah. Like do you honestly think that the guy that killed Pim Fortuyn deserves the right to vote?
    The basis of a good criminal system should be to reform people to be better members of society. Huge numbers of offenders go on to reoffend which is not helpful to anyone. Prison should offer as much opportunity as possible to help people reintegrate into life when they leave through education but if you then go on to prevent them exercising the basic rights of citizens after they leave how are they going to feel integrated? For those cases deemed irredeemable you have whole life sentences in most countries and of course the death penalty in the US.

    Seems like your legal system is too focused on punishment with little emphasis on reform and that's probably why you have such a massive prison population and such a high crime and murder rate relative to Europe.

  11. #11871
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Wait, if you serve a prison sentence in the US, you can't vote either after you've served that time?
    That is correct, in some States. The power to bar felons from voting is a State power, and based on the Constitution granting States that authority.

    The United States is, as a whole, one of the most aggressive in barring felons from voting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    He is not asking for anyone to answer for all that. He is asking for personal opinions on the matter, which makes the responses appear like intentional obfuscation.
    Because the personal opinions of a forum made up of 90+% Europeans has relevance to the question?

    Here, let me help, the majority of our FHC posters will strongly object to, and be outraged by, the U.S. Policy, and will say the U.S. should instead be giving Felons more, not less: more support, more understanding, more education, more rehabilitation via more state benefits and job skills and job placement, less punishment, and of course full restoration of all rights, plus a scrubbing of their record so future employers won't know what they did to be felons.

    Sound about right?
    I know you're trying to advocate for less...European views on this one, but I can't really respect a different opinion here.

    It's just a nasty way of doing business that destroys people and puts them into this downward spiral.

    That said, it depends 100% on what the state does. A few states are already banning "the box" for job applications, which is the "check this box if you have a felony, and we'll throw this away ASAP please explain why"

  12. #11872
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Nah. Like do you honestly think that the guy that killed Pim Fortuyn deserves the right to vote?
    The basis of a good criminal system should be to reform people to be better members of society. Huge numbers of offenders go on to reoffend which is not helpful to anyone. Prison should offer as much opportunity as possible to help people reintegrate into life when they leave through education but if you then go on to prevent them exercising the basic rights of citizens after they leave how are they going to feel integrated? For those cases deemed irredeemable you have whole life sentences in most countries and of course the death penalty in the US.

    Seems like your legal system is too focused on punishment with little emphasis on reform and that's probably why you have such a massive prison population and such a high crime and murder rate relative to Europe.
    I'd argue that a good chunk of that is due to the war on drugs, and the crime associated with drug trafficking. I'm all for better rehabilitation in prison, but some people are irredeemable (like political assassins).

    The guy (Volkert van der Graaf) knew exactly what he did, and was willing to pay the price to murder a politician whose views he disagreed with rather than let the Dutch people decide. Yet europeans think he should have the right to vote after that?

    There's gotta be a middle ground between that and 'once a felon always a felon'.
    Last edited by Approaching Walrus; September 23 2016 at 05:38:14 PM.

  13. #11873
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    http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/...ill-detonate-a

    Among those who say they will vote for Trump, 48 percent say he’ll create a database to track Muslims; 36 percent say there will be race riots; 33 percent say the government would default on its debt; and 32 percent say Trump would punish his political opponents and authorize internment camps for illegal immigrants.
    Alistair, I beleive you were asking for some date on what fraction of trump's supports are racist shitbags. Now we know that at least 48% of them are. (Could be more depending on how the sets above intersect.

    Fun Fact: 22% of trump supporters believe that he will start a nuclear war. OF HIS SUPPORTERS.

    And to think that those useless media fucks were wringing their hands about calling these shitbags "deplorable". They're not deplorable. They're goddamb sociopaths.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  14. #11874

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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Ending the war on drugs would do a lot to fix this.
    I support that idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Seems like the just thing to do ...
    Do their victims also get their rights back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    You left out your personal opinion on the matter.
    I prefer the guy who raped my (hypothetical) sister and only served 6 months for it does not get an equal say to me as to our future political leaders.

    Same way I prefer the guy who misused his firearm in the commission of a crime loses the right to own firearms in the future.

    While I have no objection to rehabilitation, where reasonable, I believe crime should be answered with punishment.

    In the "all rehab, no punishment" model, a homeless person would be best served beating up some random old woman, as the "punishment" would be a vastly better circumstance than they are in to start with.

    If I was to change criminal policy in the United States, I start with ending the War on drugs, and decriminalizing drug possession and addition issues.

    I would combine that with mandatory life sentences for murderers and rapists. No need to rehab if they never get out, and those two crimes are worthy of never getting out in my book.

    Inbeforetodaysretardretardcatcalls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    The basis of a good criminal system should be to reform people to be better members of society.
    A truly noble view.

    Now, I wonder if you'd hold that view if someone found your most beloved family member, raped them, then slowly murdered them in the most painful way possible.

    Would you turn to them, understanding and compassion in your tearing up eye, and embrace them, agree with their lack of guilt because they were just a product of their circumstances, tell them you just want to rehabilitate them, make them better, and that their rehab (not punishment, heavens no) will include comfortable existence, all the necessities taken care of, a chance for education, a wiping of their record when they get out of Club Europrison, and job placement help to a unknowing new employer in a good, living wage job?

    If you would do that, you're a better man than me. No shock, given I'm the worst man on FHC by most accounts.
    Last edited by Alistair; September 23 2016 at 05:47:32 PM.




  15. #11875
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Nah. Like do you honestly think that the guy that killed Pim Fortuyn deserves the right to vote?
    The basis of a good criminal system should be to reform people to be better members of society. Huge numbers of offenders go on to reoffend which is not helpful to anyone. Prison should offer as much opportunity as possible to help people reintegrate into life when they leave through education but if you then go on to prevent them exercising the basic rights of citizens after they leave how are they going to feel integrated? For those cases deemed irredeemable you have whole life sentences in most countries and of course the death penalty in the US.

    Seems like your legal system is too focused on punishment with little emphasis on reform and that's probably why you have such a massive prison population and such a high crime and murder rate relative to Europe.
    I'd argue that a good chunk of that is due to the war on drugs, and the crime associated with drug trafficking. I'm all for better rehabilitation in prison, but some people are irredeemable (like political assassins).

    The guy (Volkert van der Graaf) knew exactly what he did, and was willing to pay the price to murder a politician whose views he disagreed with rather than let the Dutch people decide. Yet europeans think he should have the right to vote after that?

    There's gotta be a middle ground between that and 'once a felon always a felon'.
    Not allowed voting while in prison, yes

    After you've served your time, then goddamb right you should be allowed to vote. In the specific example you cite, someone like that voting instead of eg: murdering people he disagreed with is a goddamb victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  16. #11876
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Eh. I think we have a few other issues with regards to criminal justice to solve first before I'm going to worry about whether Bob the child rapist is hard done by his lack of voting rights.
    Granted, more than a few even, but can we at least all agree that it is retarded?

    It's not just about voting rights. As said above, several other rights and opportunities aren't available either. And this can, and does, screw up the lives of those people forever. Creating a permanent underclass of people without means or possibility of rehabilitation. Leading to more recidivism and more, and more violent crime (since they have less to lose). Basically exacerbating the, indeed, massive problems US criminal justice also has.

    Overall I notice a lot of whataboutery going on in this area in the US. Seems like the US is simply incapable (or unwilling) of doing anything, because it keeps going round and round in circles about what's worse and should be tackled first.

    I christen it: 'the ring of bullshit'.
    It pretty much begins and ends with the war on drugs. It turned people caught up with a stupid law (marijuana, I still use the South African word Dagga, because its a kif word.) and victims of predatory narcos, particularly with crack, with no tolerance possession laws, and instead of treating them as addicts (i.e. a health problem, that can and should be treated medically), treated them as potential dealers and massively exploded the felon demographic.

    That shit needs to stop and get rolled back as much as possible. I mean, I really don't care about secret agent dudes going after Pablo "El Pendejo" Pendejo in some South American banana republic because he's a murderous fuckwit, but when the DEA is busting some grandma with cancer in California (where medical use is legal) we're spending money wrong.

    This is also the primary cause, I think, of pretty much most of the woes we see play out pretty much every fucking day. We've criminalized the shit out of getting high on weed, and black people enjoy their weed. I grew up in Africa. It's true there too. If some crackers were oppressing the shit out of me, I just get high on ganja all the time as well. That gave racism the tools it needed to get them off our streets, and it worked pretty well too.

    Like most of the shit the U.S. takes flak for, plagued by unforeseen consequences. I'm pretty sure no one in the CIA, MI6, or any of the others in the 50's predicted that by assassinating this one dude in some middle eastern shit hole, we would have ended up at dudes driving a truck through a celebration or shooting up a nightclub full of kids.

    The war on drugs is one of the biggest factors in how many felons there are, but its also one of the biggest contributors to the woes of black America.

    I think there is a limit to the level of rights society affords those who transgress the rights of others, but you can't really have that conversation if we're just calling some young black kid in Mississippi who got caught with a bag of weed and happened to get bust by a racist cop and faced a judge who of course gave him the mandatory minimum (which are really fucked up laws in the first place) and now he is a felon, when to jail, probably had to join a gang to survive, can't vote (funny that), and is now fucked for life, which probably ends violently at the hands of rival criminals or cops, a criminal.
    meh

  17. #11877
    Smuggo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Ending the war on drugs would do a lot to fix this.
    I support that idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Seems like the just thing to do ...
    Do their victims also get their rights back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    You left out your personal opinion on the matter.
    I prefer the guy who raped my (hypothetical) sister and only served 6 months for it does not get an equal say to me as to our future political leaders.

    Same way I prefer the guy who misused his firearm in the commission of a crime loses the right to own firearms in the future.

    While I have no objection to rehabilitation, where reasonable, I believe crime should be answered with punishment.

    In the "all rehab, no punishment" model, a homeless person would be best served beating up some random old woman, as the "punishment" would be a vastly better circumstance than they are in to start with.

    If I was to change criminal policy in the United States, I start with ending the War on drugs, and decriminalizing drug possession and addition issues.

    I would combine that with mandatory life sentences for murderers and rapists. No need to rehab if they never get out, and those two crimes are worthy of never getting out in my book.

    Inbeforetodaysretardretardcatcalls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    The basis of a good criminal system should be to reform people to be better members of society.
    A truly noble view.

    Now, I wonder if you'd hold that view if someone found your most beloved family member, raped them, then slowly murdered them in the most painful way possible.

    Would you turn to them, understanding and compassion in your tearing up eye, and embrace them, agree with their lack of guilt because they were just a product of their circumstances, tell them you just want to rehabilitate them, make them better, and that their rehab (not punishment, heavens no) will include comfortable existence, all the necessities taken care of, a chance for education, a wiping of their record when they get out of Club Europrison, and job placement help to a unknowing new employer in a good, living wage job?

    If you would do that, you're a better man than me. No shock, given I'm the worst man on FHC by most accounts.
    What I would think is not really relevant to how a society approaches crime and punishment.

  18. #11878
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Nah. Like do you honestly think that the guy that killed Pim Fortuyn deserves the right to vote?
    The basis of a good criminal system should be to reform people to be better members of society. Huge numbers of offenders go on to reoffend which is not helpful to anyone. Prison should offer as much opportunity as possible to help people reintegrate into life when they leave through education but if you then go on to prevent them exercising the basic rights of citizens after they leave how are they going to feel integrated? For those cases deemed irredeemable you have whole life sentences in most countries and of course the death penalty in the US.

    Seems like your legal system is too focused on punishment with little emphasis on reform and that's probably why you have such a massive prison population and such a high crime and murder rate relative to Europe.
    I'd argue that a good chunk of that is due to the war on drugs, and the crime associated with drug trafficking. I'm all for better rehabilitation in prison, but some people are irredeemable (like political assassins).

    The guy (Volkert van der Graaf) knew exactly what he did, and was willing to pay the price to murder a politician whose views he disagreed with rather than let the Dutch people decide. Yet europeans think he should have the right to vote after that?

    There's gotta be a middle ground between that and 'once a felon always a felon'.
    Not allowed voting while in prison, yes

    After you've served your time, then goddamb right you should be allowed to vote. In the specific example you cite, someone like that voting instead of eg: murdering people he disagreed with is a goddamb victory.
    I think it's a travesty that someone can assassinate a politician in Europe and still vote afterwards. I'm not talking about his prison term, or death penalty, the man that took out someone who could have changed the course of an entire country, who had millions of supporters can still vote.

    One bullet is worth a million votes if it hits the right target. A single death can change everything. So we disagree on this. Call it cultural relativism if you want.

  19. #11879
    Donor Aea's Avatar
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    Alistair again proving there are two sides to any issue. His way. Or the strawman.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  20. #11880
    Smuggo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Nah. Like do you honestly think that the guy that killed Pim Fortuyn deserves the right to vote?
    The basis of a good criminal system should be to reform people to be better members of society. Huge numbers of offenders go on to reoffend which is not helpful to anyone. Prison should offer as much opportunity as possible to help people reintegrate into life when they leave through education but if you then go on to prevent them exercising the basic rights of citizens after they leave how are they going to feel integrated? For those cases deemed irredeemable you have whole life sentences in most countries and of course the death penalty in the US.

    Seems like your legal system is too focused on punishment with little emphasis on reform and that's probably why you have such a massive prison population and such a high crime and murder rate relative to Europe.
    I'd argue that a good chunk of that is due to the war on drugs, and the crime associated with drug trafficking. I'm all for better rehabilitation in prison, but some people are irredeemable (like political assassins).

    The guy (Volkert van der Graaf) knew exactly what he did, and was willing to pay the price to murder a politician whose views he disagreed with rather than let the Dutch people decide. Yet europeans think he should have the right to vote after that?

    There's gotta be a middle ground between that and 'once a felon always a felon'.
    Not allowed voting while in prison, yes

    After you've served your time, then goddamb right you should be allowed to vote. In the specific example you cite, someone like that voting instead of eg: murdering people he disagreed with is a goddamb victory.
    I think it's a travesty that someone can assassinate a politician in Europe and still vote afterwards. I'm not talking about his prison term, or death penalty, the man that took out someone who could have changed the course of an entire country, who had millions of supporters can still vote.

    One bullet is worth a million votes if it hits the right target. A single death can change everything. So we disagree on this. Call it cultural relativism if you want.
    So politicians lives are worth more than the rest of us?

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