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Thread: Windows 10: Just kidding guys, here's your start menu. I TROL U?

  1. #2241
    Specially Pegged Donor Overspark's Avatar
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    Winget is a controversial soap since they basically milked and then discarded the maker of Appget for it's concept. But as it stands it not very good either. Only installing software works, but updating? Or update notifications? I've been using Chocolatey for years and that works fine if you remember to run it every once in a while, but it could be a lot better than it is.

    TL;DR the Windows package manager landscape is still a far cry from how polished the Linux experience is.

  2. #2242

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    Yeah, Iím relatively new to Linux, but apt get is fantastic. Iím not sure why we canít have this on Windows natively, smaller OS manage it, hell, even small programming languages manage this..

  3. #2243

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    WinGet is supposed to add all these (installin, updateing, removing): https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli/projects/1

    Taken from https://www.theregister.com/2020/05/...ndows_package/

  4. #2244
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheps View Post
    Yeah, I’m relatively new to Linux, but apt get is fantastic. I’m not sure why we can’t have this on Windows natively, smaller OS manage it, hell, even small programming languages manage this..
    I couldn't believe how good package managers were when I went to Linux. And there's loads of them! They can't be that difficult to implement, he said never having written anything more complex than an Excel formula in his life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  5. #2245

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    I don't think the code itself is that hard to write, it's just a bit more advanced version of this:

    Code:
    if(installed_version < version_on_repo){
        get && install(version_on_repo)
    } else {
        print("kthnxbye")
    }
    The hard part is getting developers to use a centralized repo. To get them to do that, you need a lot of users and you don't get the users without the devs and fuctionality etc. Although somehow they managed.

  6. #2246
    Specially Pegged Donor Overspark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    WinGet is supposed to add all these (installin, updateing, removing): https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli/projects/1
    Well yes, they did post over half a year ago that it would probably be a good idea to add something so basic you shouldn't even be allowed to call yourself a package manager without it...

    Sarcasm aside, it's mostly the lack of progress that causes me to not have any faith in it. Honestly I don't even know why they released it without being able to upgrade stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by morpheps View Post
    The hard part is getting developers to use a centralized repo. To get them to do that, you need a lot of users and you don't get the users without the devs and fuctionality etc. Although somehow they managed.
    Which is why WinGet pulls it's files from a "community repo" that only has metadata pointing to the actual software. And developers can do pull requests against that community repo if they want to add their packages, which are handled by a bot. And Microsoft can get away with not manually vetting the packages included in said repo. It's... a remarkable strategy for a tech giant.
    Last edited by Overspark; October 19 2020 at 07:37:00 PM.

  7. #2247
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    The real power of package managers is the tree of dependencies, and transactional nature of set of updates (especially if pre & post install and remove scripts are robust).
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

  8. #2248

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    The real power of package managers is the tree of dependencies, and transactional nature of set of updates (especially if pre & post install and remove scripts are robust).
    Word. If there are any Pythonistas in here, I'm going to enrage them (potentially) and say that in Python, this sucks ass and should die in a fire compared to similar operations in R. It's just so mind boggingly complicated.

  9. #2249

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    The real power of package managers is the tree of dependencies, and transactional nature of set of updates (especially if pre & post install and remove scripts are robust).
    This.

    Bonus points for proper rollbacks and resolving dependency conflicts.

    And then we haven't touched the topic of "trusting/securing the repository", so that things like this don't happen.

    So...
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    They can't be that difficult to implement, he said never having written anything more complex than an Excel formula in his life.
    Quote Originally Posted by morpheps View Post
    I don't think the code itself is that hard to write [...]
    ... yeah, but nope.

  10. #2250
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Then how come there are so many linux package managers? Seems like every other 3-man band distro has its own special package manager

    Linux is just a tiny bit more didactic when it comes to file structure; is it intrinsically a lot easier to do package managers than for windows?
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  11. #2251

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Then how come there are so many linux package managers? Seems like every other 3-man band distro has its own special package manager

    Linux is just a tiny bit more didactic when it comes to file structure; is it intrinsically a lot easier to do package managers than for windows?
    (Disclaimer: I consider myself to be a Linux noob and know next to nothing about Linux (binaries) development, so I might be totally wrong and please correct me there)

    First of all: I only know of 2 (major) Linux package managers: apt and yum. All the others (gem, npm etc.) are specific to their realm (Ruby, Node.js) AFAIK.

    I also think that the major problem a universal Windows package manager faces is the way he has to deal with the different types of libraries (DLLs). Currently it would need to handle standard/native Win32 DLLs, COM DLLs and .NET assemblies. All of them need to be handled slightly different at the time of installation. To an extended this also applies to executables. Whereas Linux "only" has the .so file format for libraries.

    The next problem in Windows is the availability of libraries. I develop my software with a commercial library of some kind, e.g. an Excel like grid control. How can a package manager grab the right library from a repository and ensure the licensing of that lib doesn't get screwed up?

    But these are technical issues I could see being solved in the future. What I think is more of a problem is who curates that trusted central repository and how this is done. TBH, I have no idea how that is done by all the Linux distros. I mean, such a repo for Windows would immediately become the main target for all malware operators/state-actors of this world, trying to get their applications/libraries in there to abuse them later. Look no further than the Android Play store which is constantly plagued with malware.

    That being said, here's a collection of facts about MS/Windows and my personal conclusion from this:
    - Most people don't know that MS meanwhile is one of the largest Linux contributors
    - The way the .NET framework is designed, along with its port to Linux (.Net Core) allows for the kind of package management Linux users/admins have enjoyed for decades
    - For packet managers, NuGet is as close as you can get to any Linux package manager. Being based on PowerShell, it's no surprise that there's also a Linux port of the latter
    - The invention of WSL and the further development roadmap for it, integrating it even deeper into Windows. At some point, the Windows kernel and the interweaved parts of the WSL/Linux kernel might be indistinguishable from one another. It's already quite amazing being able to run both Linux and Windows executables in whatever Linux distro you've got installed in WSL. Even from within a shell script.

    Taking into account all of the above, I wouldn't be too surprised to witness a Windows OS someday, that - although still running Windows executables - is a Linux OS at its core. And along with it finally comes a decent package manager for Windows.

  12. #2252
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    You're suggesting that Windows may someday be POSIX-compliant?
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
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  13. #2253
    Specially Pegged Donor Overspark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Then how come there are so many linux package managers? Seems like every other 3-man band distro has its own special package manager

    Linux is just a tiny bit more didactic when it comes to file structure; is it intrinsically a lot easier to do package managers than for windows?
    (Disclaimer: I consider myself to be a Linux noob and know next to nothing about Linux (binaries) development, so I might be totally wrong and please correct me there)

    First of all: I only know of 2 (major) Linux package managers: apt and yum. All the others (gem, npm etc.) are specific to their realm (Ruby, Node.js) AFAIK.
    That's not entirely correct. Basically every Linux distro had their own package manager at some point, and there has been a little bit of standardisation since then. So you're right in the sense that apt and yum are the two biggest ones, but SUSE uses yast+zypper, Arch uses pacman, Alpine uses apk, Gentoo uses portage, etc. Hell, Slackware barely has a package manager since slackpkg doesn't automatically install dependencies. apt and yum being the biggest is because most popular distros are derived from Debian (Ubuntu, Mint, Kali, Raspbian, etc) or something Red Hat related (RHEL, Fedora, CentOS) at this point.

    So to answer Malcanis' question: you're right, but it's irrelevant. You pick a Linux distro and use the package manager it provides for you, and usually that gives you a great experience. There's never any reason to use more than one package manager. Sometimes there is a bit of flavour in the form of a nice GUI around a command-line tool, but it always boils down to basically one system per distro.

    All these package managers get their metadata (what depends on what and where are the files and new versions etc) from a central repository. Those repositories are usually managed in an open source way, but often with some corporate influence as well. Some distros are just commercial products with 100% corporate backing and support (RHEL), others tend to be much more open source and sometimes even refuse to carry commercial software with horrible licenses (Debian). AFAIK all of them tend to be guarded well and only allow changes from trusted people. It's not impossible to sneak malware in, but it's usually very very hard. Packages in the better distros tend to be cryptographically signed as well these days, so even if you hack an FTP server you're not there yet.

    Basically Linux is decades of development ahead of Windows at this point when it comes to package managers, and only a really determined push by Microsoft can bring them on the same level. WinGet seems to be a nice little experiment IMHO, but not the all-in push it needs to be to make this work.

  14. #2254

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    Thx for setting the facts about package managers straight. Much appretiated.

  15. #2255
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    You're suggesting that Windows may someday be POSIX-compliant?
    POSIX++, maybe
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

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