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Thread: "It just works" Linux aka "Anything better than Ubuntu?"

  1. #41
    thebomby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Still cant type emerge without a shiver going down my spine (there it is..) crew checking in.

    It actually wasn't that bad from a clean install. Do the boot thing, compile everything, be awesome, runs nice, compile the apps (in this case its was MythTV) set it up, all is good.

    Then there was a new version of something and things started to go down hill. Compile new version of a library, its broken myth, recompile myth, didnt help, unmask new version of myth, better but that's broken a plugin, unmask new version of a different library to fix that, its broken the remote control apps, unmask the new version of them, all working now? looks good right? Errr.... If I ignore all of the errors in the logs everything looks like its working fine. That'll do as I've been recompiling for 4 days now..

    4 days later, ooo a new kernel that might fix my errors.. Nope, just killed my hardware support for the video card im using.. Known error.. Fuck.. How do I downgrade again? Shit, it has recompiled the compiler and now I cant..

    As soon as the debian myth project people had even close to the version i was running i swapped that shit out and never went back.
    So much this. Gentoo gave me nightmares. My idiot predecessor had installed tinydns and qmail along with daemontools, all of which are pretty awesome but which are a royal pain to manage, especially if you configure daemontools and qmail wrong. He also had two different versions of php running on one machine with a hack that some gentoo genius had contrived but which pretty much broke both php and apache updates. I remember sitting there one night at 11pm almost in tears with the frustration of trying to get gentoo's emerge crap to unravel the mess he had made and eventually giving up.
    Будь смиренным, будь кротким, не заботься о тленном
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  2. #42

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    Gentoo, separating the wheat from the chaff since 2002.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    I wouldn't even consider Gentoo a good learning tool. Almost everything I learnt from it was specific to its way of doing things. Sure, I now know how to optimize a compiler for an Athlon64, and unmask tools you need to get things done, get 32bit libraries working in an x64 environment, etc etc, but almost off of this is either so niche that im never going to use it, or better distros do it automatically for you.
    Erm, the only thing specific to Gentoo is portage, it's a standard Linux distro in every other aspect. It's good for learning because it forces you to understand how your system works, else you get the experiences you described earlier. Mastering Gentoo makes fixing stuff in any other Linux distro mostly trivial (scnr) because you already have good understanding of internals.
    “The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.”
    ― Werner Heisenberg

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irrelephant View Post
    Gentoo, separating the wheat from the chaff since 2002.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    I wouldn't even consider Gentoo a good learning tool. Almost everything I learnt from it was specific to its way of doing things. Sure, I now know how to optimize a compiler for an Athlon64, and unmask tools you need to get things done, get 32bit libraries working in an x64 environment, etc etc, but almost off of this is either so niche that im never going to use it, or better distros do it automatically for you.
    Erm, the only thing specific to Gentoo is portage, it's a standard Linux distro in every other aspect. It's good for learning because it forces you to understand how your system works, else you get the experiences you described earlier. Mastering Gentoo makes fixing stuff in any other Linux distro mostly trivial (scnr) because you already have good understanding of internals.
    Not really. Almost all of the issues I had with Gentoo either don't appear with other distros because they actually test their stuff before release or were software specific, not distro specific. Gentoo is bleeding edge and therefor has issues other distros iron out (mostly) before the packages make it in. Now this can be a good thing if you are trying to do something bleeding edge and you have literally days to work on things, but most people arent and dont.

    Gentoo is an awesome distro if your time is worth literally nothing, otherwise go with one of the debian family, or even deadcat.
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Not really. Almost all of the issues I had with Gentoo either don't appear with other distros because they actually test their stuff before release or were software specific, not distro specific. Gentoo is bleeding edge and therefor has issues other distros iron out (mostly) before the packages make it in. Now this can be a good thing if you are trying to do something bleeding edge and you have literally days to work on things, but most people arent and dont.
    My best guess is you enabled the ~arch keyword globally, in which case you get a highly bleeding edge system. Restricting ~arch to single packages when you really want that newer version is usually painless. Per default Gentoo is as stable as any other distro, though not quite as ancie..erm stable as Debian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Gentoo is an awesome distro if your time is worth literally nothing, otherwise go with one of the debian family, or even deadcat.
    It certainly takes a bit more effort then other distros, it's not that bad though once you get past the learning curve. On average a world update takes me about 5min of human interaction. Is it worth the effort? If all you want is use some standard stuff, nope.
    “The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.”
    ― Werner Heisenberg

  5. #45

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    Reposting http://fun.irq.dk/funroll-loops.org/

    I'm a big debian fan. Gave up on FreeBSD for servers some time ago as the pain wasn't worth the pleasure. Debian 'just mostly works' for me.
    Please don't teach me what to do with my pc.

  6. #46
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itiken View Post
    Reposting http://fun.irq.dk/funroll-loops.org/

    I'm a big debian fan. Gave up on FreeBSD for servers some time ago as the pain wasn't worth the pleasure. Debian 'just mostly works' for me.
    "I don't think that Debian can really compete with Gentoo. Sure it might be okay, but when it comes to dependencies, you probably are still going to have to get them all on your own. Or is there something like portage in the Debian world as well?"
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Itiken View Post
    Reposting http://fun.irq.dk/funroll-loops.org/

    I'm a big debian fan. Gave up on FreeBSD for servers some time ago as the pain wasn't worth the pleasure. Debian 'just mostly works' for me.
    "I don't think that Debian can really compete with Gentoo. Sure it might be okay, but when it comes to dependencies, you probably are still going to have to get them all on your own. Or is there something like portage in the Debian world as well?"
    "Why *SHOULDN'T* you put a production server on gentoo? I mean, THOSE things should perform REALLY well, and gentoo is just the thing that does that..."
    "I started using Gentoo on the desktop and now I've rolled it out as a production server using some great technologies: ReiserFS, RAID-5, Gentoo patched kernel, Samba ... you name it."
    a ha a ha ha ah ha ha ha haaaaaaa haaaaaa haaaa

    Будь смиренным, будь кротким, не заботься о тленном
    Власти, данной Богом, сынок, будь навеки верным...
    Я люблю Росcию, я - патриот

  8. #48

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    Keep in mind that the infamous gentoo ricer page is from like 10 years ago. Not that it makes any of the quotes less hillarious, but back then having stuff compiled for your architecure actually made a difference. Also don't diss ReiserFS , besides Mr.Reiser being a bloodthirsty aspie and the whole thing going stale after his convinction, i haven't seen a FS that performs better with shit tons of small files since.
    “The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.”
    ― Werner Heisenberg

  9. #49
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irrelephant View Post
    Keep in mind that the infamous gentoo ricer page is from like 10 years ago. Not that it makes any of the quotes less hillarious, but back then having stuff compiled for your architecure actually made a difference. Also don't diss ReiserFS , besides Mr.Reiser being a bloodthirsty aspie and the whole thing going stale after his convinction, i haven't seen a FS that performs better with shit tons of small files since.
    Yeah I was gonna point out it seemed quite old. ReiserFS was always going to not quite be the next big thing. (ZFS is my new hero FS)
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Irrelephant View Post
    Keep in mind that the infamous gentoo ricer page is from like 10 years ago. Not that it makes any of the quotes less hillarious, but back then having stuff compiled for your architecure actually made a difference. Also don't diss ReiserFS , besides Mr.Reiser being a bloodthirsty aspie and the whole thing going stale after his convinction, i haven't seen a FS that performs better with shit tons of small files since.
    Yeah I was gonna point out it seemed quite old. ReiserFS was always going to not quite be the next big thing. (ZFS is my new hero FS)
    Some could say Reiser was pretty killer.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Irrelephant View Post
    Keep in mind that the infamous gentoo ricer page is from like 10 years ago. Not that it makes any of the quotes less hillarious, but back then having stuff compiled for your architecure actually made a difference. Also don't diss ReiserFS , besides Mr.Reiser being a bloodthirsty aspie and the whole thing going stale after his convinction, i haven't seen a FS that performs better with shit tons of small files since.
    Yeah I was gonna point out it seemed quite old. ReiserFS was always going to not quite be the next big thing. (ZFS is my new hero FS)
    Some could say Reiser was pretty killer.
    http://instantrimshot.com/
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  12. #52
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    Today Arch Linux decided that my video card is now a legacy card.

    I discovered this by attempting to turn my computer on after running an update and having the desktop manager fail to load. It seems I'm supposed to uninstall my video card drivers, as my card is no longer part of this driver package, and install the corresponding legacy package. Doing so has not solved the problem.

    Tomorrow I'm going to install ubuntu and never speak well of Arch again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loire
    I'm too stupid to say anything that deserves being in your magnificent signature.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Today Arch Linux decided that my video card is now a legacy card.

    I discovered this by attempting to turn my computer on after running an update and having the desktop manager fail to load. It seems I'm supposed to uninstall my video card drivers, as my card is no longer part of this driver package, and install the corresponding legacy package. Doing so has not solved the problem.

    Tomorrow I'm going to install ubuntu and never speak well of Arch again.
    Ubuntu will do this as well from time to time but generally when they do if work out you need to swap to the legacy package and do it for you...
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  14. #54
    Super Moderator Global Moderator QuackBot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irrelephant View Post

    It certainly takes a bit more effort then other distros, it's not that bad though once you get past the learning curve. On average a world update takes me about 5min of human interaction. Is it worth the effort? If all you want is use some standard stuff, nope.
    Nope, i think i'll take their word over a bad engineer in slovakia!

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Irrelephant View Post

    It certainly takes a bit more effort then other distros, it's not that bad though once you get past the learning curve. On average a world update takes me about 5min of human interaction. Is it worth the effort? If all you want is use some standard stuff, nope.
    Nope, i think i'll take their word over a bad engineer in slovakia!
    Quackbot runs on Gentoo.
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  16. #56
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    CoreOS with Docker on it.
    Then just give every app/developer their own distro that they please. :-)

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Today Arch Linux decided that my video card is now a legacy card.

    I discovered this by attempting to turn my computer on after running an update and having the desktop manager fail to load. It seems I'm supposed to uninstall my video card drivers, as my card is no longer part of this driver package, and install the corresponding legacy package. Doing so has not solved the problem.

    Tomorrow I'm going to install ubuntu and never speak well of Arch again.
    Ubuntu will do this as well from time to time but generally when they do if work out you need to swap to the legacy package and do it for you...
    I think you were typing that in a bumpy car ride.

    I removed nvidia package, installed the legacy package for my card, rebooted, and had it crash with "Failed to initialize the NVIDIA kernel module" in xorg.0.log
    I haven't spent time yet sifting through kernel logs or wherever I'm supposed to look to trace more details. I may try again tonight and if not will just forget about arch and dump xubuntu or lubuntu on there. TBH I'm not seeing much value in using arch on a desktop. Most things require more effort with no real gains. I'd consider putting it on a pi but for home use... no thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loire
    I'm too stupid to say anything that deserves being in your magnificent signature.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waagaa View Post
    CoreOS with Docker on it.
    Then just give every app/developer their own distro that they please. :-)
    Got a client to do exactly this for one of their dev teams last week.

    After about three days they said they were glad we're not on commission.

    We're actually having a really easy time selling it to customers. Most of it is a bit... fluffy for management types, but even their jaws tend to drop when you explain the guarantee that a container that works anywhere will work everywhere. You can sense them mentally zeroing the budget for their integration testing team.
    Last edited by elmicker; October 7 2014 at 11:46:09 PM.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Waagaa View Post
    CoreOS with Docker on it.
    Then just give every app/developer their own distro that they please. :-)
    Got a client to do exactly this for one of their dev teams last week.

    After about three days they said they were glad we're not on commission.

    We're actually having a really easy time selling it to customers. Most of it is a bit... fluffy for management types, but even their jaws tend to drop when you explain the guarantee that a container that works anywhere will work everywhere. You can sense them mentally zeroing the budget for their integration testing team.
    I'm doing a talk on Dockercon europe about Docker for developers / CD / CI, etc With some "So how does this work for a big bank" points.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waagaa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Waagaa View Post
    CoreOS with Docker on it.
    Then just give every app/developer their own distro that they please. :-)
    Got a client to do exactly this for one of their dev teams last week.

    After about three days they said they were glad we're not on commission.

    We're actually having a really easy time selling it to customers. Most of it is a bit... fluffy for management types, but even their jaws tend to drop when you explain the guarantee that a container that works anywhere will work everywhere. You can sense them mentally zeroing the budget for their integration testing team.
    I'm doing a talk on Dockercon europe about Docker for developers / CD / CI, etc With some "So how does this work for a big bank" points.
    Am starting to think I need to into this docker thing, give it a few years and i may get around to it though :/

    "Kerning is serious business"
    And having an image that does not cause Autism attacks even more so.

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