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Thread: "It just works" Linux aka "Anything better than Ubuntu?"

  1. #921
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    Not really when it comes to using a tablet vs a laptop/pc for browsing and office work.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

  2. #922
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Getting my parents onto Linux when they barely can use Windows is a sure recipe frustration for everyone. At least me that have to be on standby every time they have an issue they are unfamiliar with. Not touching that with a 10ft pole.
    They almost certainly use *nix TVs, phones and tablets already.


    Yes, and your point being?

  3. #923
    Cosmin's Avatar
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    I think his point is that you're acting like Linux for desktop doesn't have a GUI or something. Let's be honest, there are plenty of distros with a pleasant interface and if you confine the people using to a user account the chances of stuff breaking are minimal compared to Windows. Not to mention the much lower chance of picking up malware and other crap that Windows gets infested with regularly. Yes, you can try a user account for Windows, but they're usually quite restricted and going through the Group Policy for that is a bit meh.

  4. #924
    Super Moderator DonorGlobal Moderator whispous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    I think his point is that you're acting like Linux for desktop doesn't have a GUI or something. Let's be honest, there are plenty of distros with a pleasant interface and if you confine the people using to a user account the chances of stuff breaking are minimal compared to Windows. Not to mention the much lower chance of picking up malware and other crap that Windows gets infested with regularly. Yes, you can try a user account for Windows, but they're usually quite restricted and going through the Group Policy for that is a bit meh.
    I guess where we're not seeing eye-to-eye isn't about usability as a browser/document OS, but the linux usability issue rears it's head with things like your persuit of some likely niche, barely used weird software to get an iPhone talking with it - software that will inevitably break as apple changes things repeatedly. I don't think it's a kind solution to present to your parents if they are already comfortable with a drastically more compatible Windows+iTunes setup.



    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    locking again cos you're all getting weird and being autists about tyres

  5. #925
    Cosmin's Avatar
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    They're not using iTunes almost at all since everything is syncing via cloud. Push comes to shove I'll get them a couple of Macbooks and resolve the issue of computing as well since most laptops in the household are ancient history and even with Linux they're quite slow (albeit much faster than with Windows installed).

    Also if you had the curiosity to look, libimobiledevice is FOSS and has been around for ages and still works despite Apple having kept changing stuff. So your argument here is invalid, as long as it is maintained it will be usable indefinitely. FOSS people know their shit and they are obssessive regarding maintaining their stuff.

    My niche is safe, I'm still using Windows for the moment but seriously looking into migrating. Replacing 3DSMax with Blender is going to be the easiest part, however. Proton needs to mature a bit more.

  6. #926
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whispous View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Getting my parents onto Linux when they barely can use Windows is a sure recipe frustration for everyone. At least me that have to be on standby every time they have an issue they are unfamiliar with. Not touching that with a 10ft pole.
    They almost certainly use *nix TVs, phones and tablets already.
    Absolutely disingenuously irrelevant and you know it!
    As disingenuous as pretending that his parents are gonna fix windows issues either?
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  7. #927
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whispous View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    I think his point is that you're acting like Linux for desktop doesn't have a GUI or something. Let's be honest, there are plenty of distros with a pleasant interface and if you confine the people using to a user account the chances of stuff breaking are minimal compared to Windows. Not to mention the much lower chance of picking up malware and other crap that Windows gets infested with regularly. Yes, you can try a user account for Windows, but they're usually quite restricted and going through the Group Policy for that is a bit meh.
    I guess where we're not seeing eye-to-eye isn't about usability as a browser/document OS, but the linux usability issue rears it's head with things like your persuit of some likely niche, barely used weird software to get an iPhone talking with it - software that will inevitably break as apple changes things repeatedly. I don't think it's a kind solution to present to your parents if they are already comfortable with a drastically more compatible Windows+iTunes setup.
    Pretty much. Also, when we are talking about the level of computer literacy (or lack thereof) of my parents, even small trivial changes in how you do things via the GUI is going to be an unsurmountable obstacle for my parents without handholding. Sure, there are benefits with Linux from a security perspective but I've managed to teach them basic precautions like not to click dubious links or attatchements in emails, and for the last 12 years or so there has been no issues with malware on either of their windows laptops.

    I mean, I don't think Cosmin understand how bad my mother for instance is at using computers. Like moving one file from one folder to another. I've walked her through this process more times than I can count, and she still has issues doing trivial shit like that. And it's not on my ability to teach. I have teached introductory computer classes for organizations like "bygdefolkets studieforbund" (basically an organization for old seniors who have lived all their lives working on their own farms) and yes. It's challenging teaching them how to interact with computers, but my parents (and especially my mother) is on a completely different level.

    What I am saying is, Linux is not the main culprit here. If their laptops came pre installed and shipped with Linux 12 years ago (my dad is still on windows 7) it would be just as much effort to move them to Windows.

    Related:


  8. #928
    Super Moderator DonorGlobal Moderator whispous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by whispous View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Getting my parents onto Linux when they barely can use Windows is a sure recipe frustration for everyone. At least me that have to be on standby every time they have an issue they are unfamiliar with. Not touching that with a 10ft pole.
    They almost certainly use *nix TVs, phones and tablets already.
    Absolutely disingenuously irrelevant and you know it!
    As disingenuous as pretending that his parents are gonna fix windows issues either?
    People have fewer issues with systems thay're already comfortable with



    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    locking again cos you're all getting weird and being autists about tyres

  9. #929

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by whispous View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Getting my parents onto Linux when they barely can use Windows is a sure recipe frustration for everyone. At least me that have to be on standby every time they have an issue they are unfamiliar with. Not touching that with a 10ft pole.
    They almost certainly use *nix TVs, phones and tablets already.
    Absolutely disingenuously irrelevant and you know it!
    As disingenuous as pretending that his parents are gonna fix windows issues either?
    As mentioned above, the most likely show-stopper is some kind of proprietary app they've been using for years (often unknowingly). Most likely there is a Linux alternative, but the migration for the existing data might be non-existing or a PITA. Like my father used a photo organizing app that came with some kind of device (MFP, perhaps). Windows-only obviously.

    The different UIs themselves are a minor issue in my experience, given that he went throught that with Win7 -> Win XP -> Win10.

  10. #930
    Cosmin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whispous View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by whispous View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Getting my parents onto Linux when they barely can use Windows is a sure recipe frustration for everyone. At least me that have to be on standby every time they have an issue they are unfamiliar with. Not touching that with a 10ft pole.
    They almost certainly use *nix TVs, phones and tablets already.
    Absolutely disingenuously irrelevant and you know it!
    As disingenuous as pretending that his parents are gonna fix windows issues either?
    People have fewer issues with systems thay're already comfortable with
    By employing this logic we’d still be using a horse and carriage and a rock instead of a car and a PC.

    Whilst I love LTT they’re absolutely abysmal in conveying how stuff they don’t understand can still be appealing. But their favourite keyboard switch is cherry MX brown so you can’t reason with such uncultured peasants /jk


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  11. #931
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Whilst I love LTT they’re absolutely abysmal in conveying how stuff they don’t understand can still be appealing.
    The video is not about people who want to sink their teeth into something they don't know yet and learn about it. It's about "how hard/easy is it to use Linux as your average gamer?"
    nevar forget

  12. #932
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by whispous View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by whispous View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Getting my parents onto Linux when they barely can use Windows is a sure recipe frustration for everyone. At least me that have to be on standby every time they have an issue they are unfamiliar with. Not touching that with a 10ft pole.
    They almost certainly use *nix TVs, phones and tablets already.
    Absolutely disingenuously irrelevant and you know it!
    As disingenuous as pretending that his parents are gonna fix windows issues either?
    People have fewer issues with systems thay're already comfortable with
    By employing this logic we’d still be using a horse and carriage and a rock instead of a car and a PC.

    Whilst I love LTT they’re absolutely abysmal in conveying how stuff they don’t understand can still be appealing. But their favourite keyboard switch is cherry MX brown so you can’t reason with such uncultured peasants /jk


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    It's not a joke at all, is it?



    (Disclaimer: I'm using a £3.99 Logitech USB keyboard I bought years ago)
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  13. #933
    Super Moderator DonorGlobal Moderator whispous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    I'm using a £3.99 Logitech USB keyboard I bought years ago




    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    locking again cos you're all getting weird and being autists about tyres

  14. #934
    Cosmin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Whilst I love LTT they’re absolutely abysmal in conveying how stuff they don’t understand can still be appealing.
    The video is not about people who want to sink their teeth into something they don't know yet and learn about it. It's about "how hard/easy is it to use Linux as your average gamer?"
    Yes, and Luke managed to do it quite smoothly. Linus has a really unconventional setup with lots of crap around and you don't install Linux on stuff like that unless you actually know your way around bash. On the other hand, Pop!_OS actually fixed the issue, there was a dependency clash between Gnome and Steam due to the llvm version in the Ubuntu 21.04 repos - this lasted only a few days at most, but that's when Linux tried to install it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post

    Whilst I love LTT they’re absolutely abysmal in conveying how stuff they don’t understand can still be appealing. But their favourite keyboard switch is cherry MX brown so you can’t reason with such uncultured peasants /jk


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    It's not a joke at all, is it?



    (Disclaimer: I'm using a £3.99 Logitech USB keyboard I bought years ago)
    It actually is a joke, I really don't hate on people using what makes them happy <3

    Also throwback to times when Logitech actually made 3.99 keebs instead of the currently overpriced stuff

  15. #935
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Whilst I love LTT they’re absolutely abysmal in conveying how stuff they don’t understand can still be appealing.
    The video is not about people who want to sink their teeth into something they don't know yet and learn about it. It's about "how hard/easy is it to use Linux as your average gamer?"
    Yes, and Luke managed to do it quite smoothly. Linus has a really unconventional setup with lots of crap around and you don't install Linux on stuff like that unless you actually know your way around bash. On the other hand, Pop!_OS actually fixed the issue, there was a dependency clash between Gnome and Steam due to the llvm version in the Ubuntu 21.04 repos - this lasted only a few days at most, but that's when Linux tried to install it
    No he hasn't. Yes, he runs his personal workstation off a rack closet, but the hardware is not esoteric (except for his sound mixer setup) at all. That the OS decides to brick itself because he wanted to install one of the most used consumer software (which the distro itself hails loudly it's tailor made for) package out there, is not in any way on him. This wasn't a hardware issue, this was a critical bug in package management of the OS itself. That no one even caught up on this before a big youtube profile decided to give it a go is tbh quite amazing. And is maybe a symptom as to why Linux isn't regarded a viable consumer desktop alternative yet.

  16. #936
    Super Moderator DonorGlobal Moderator whispous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Whilst I love LTT they’re absolutely abysmal in conveying how stuff they don’t understand can still be appealing.
    The video is not about people who want to sink their teeth into something they don't know yet and learn about it. It's about "how hard/easy is it to use Linux as your average gamer?"
    Yes, and Luke managed to do it quite smoothly. Linus has a really unconventional setup with lots of crap around and you don't install Linux on stuff like that unless you actually know your way around bash. On the other hand, Pop!_OS actually fixed the issue, there was a dependency clash between Gnome and Steam due to the llvm version in the Ubuntu 21.04 repos - this lasted only a few days at most, but that's when Linux tried to install it
    No he hasn't. Yes, he runs his personal workstation off a rack closet, but the hardware is not esoteric (except for his sound mixer setup) at all. That the OS decides to brick itself because he wanted to install one of the most used consumer software (which the distro itself hails loudly it's tailor made for) package out there, is not in any way on him. This wasn't a hardware issue, this was a critical bug in package management of the OS itself. That no one even caught up on this before a big youtube profile decided to give it a go is tbh quite amazing. And is maybe a symptom as to why Linux isn't regarded a viable consumer desktop alternative yet.
    Exactly this. So many parts that a real home user needs from a computer day-to-day are unncessesarily buggy, fragmented, barely maintained/instructions kept up to date, and have giant GULFS between installation methods on any Linux distro.

    I'm not asking for babby's first app store - i'm trying to tell the REAL TRUTH about it that you find when you look beneath "nah everything is fine* for anyone to use Linux". It's a lie, it's fragmented, unpolished and the only place you can get help for every 10th issue is a 4 year old forum post where some rain man expert figured it out and gave you a command to copy+paste.



    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    locking again cos you're all getting weird and being autists about tyres

  17. #937
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whispous View Post
    the only place you can get help for every 10th issue is a 4 year old forum post where some rain man expert figured it out and gave you a command to copy+paste.
    That was a thing they talked about at length in the last (or the one before or both) WAN show. The problem isn't so much the age old solution, but that in the meantime dependencies may change and all of the sudden the copy+paste solution no longer works, but the solution was so esoteric, it was hard to understand for the average user. The issue Linus was referring to will come up in pt.2 or pt.3 IIRC.
    nevar forget

  18. #938
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whispous View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Whilst I love LTT they’re absolutely abysmal in conveying how stuff they don’t understand can still be appealing.
    The video is not about people who want to sink their teeth into something they don't know yet and learn about it. It's about "how hard/easy is it to use Linux as your average gamer?"
    Yes, and Luke managed to do it quite smoothly. Linus has a really unconventional setup with lots of crap around and you don't install Linux on stuff like that unless you actually know your way around bash. On the other hand, Pop!_OS actually fixed the issue, there was a dependency clash between Gnome and Steam due to the llvm version in the Ubuntu 21.04 repos - this lasted only a few days at most, but that's when Linux tried to install it
    No he hasn't. Yes, he runs his personal workstation off a rack closet, but the hardware is not esoteric (except for his sound mixer setup) at all. That the OS decides to brick itself because he wanted to install one of the most used consumer software (which the distro itself hails loudly it's tailor made for) package out there, is not in any way on him. This wasn't a hardware issue, this was a critical bug in package management of the OS itself. That no one even caught up on this before a big youtube profile decided to give it a go is tbh quite amazing. And is maybe a symptom as to why Linux isn't regarded a viable consumer desktop alternative yet.
    Exactly this. So many parts that a real home user needs from a computer day-to-day are unncessesarily buggy, fragmented, barely maintained/instructions kept up to date, and have giant GULFS between installation methods on any Linux distro.

    I'm not asking for babby's first app store - i'm trying to tell the REAL TRUTH about it that you find when you look beneath "nah everything is fine* for anyone to use Linux". It's a lie, it's fragmented, unpolished and the only place you can get help for every 10th issue is a 4 year old forum post where some rain man expert figured it out and gave you a command to copy+paste.
    To be fair, I've used Linux since Debian version 2.1, and it's quite amazing how far it's gotten. But it's not there yet, but I'm sure it will be. Some day ....

  19. #939
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    Is 2022 the year of the Linux desktop?
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  20. #940
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    Is 2022 the year of the Linux desktop?
    As long as you don't install Steam. If you do, it will be the year of the Linux console

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