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Thread: St Louis - Muskets Thread (USA civil unrest)

  1. #2001
    Donor Shiodome's Avatar
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    i thought he was implying that he is a smug patronising cunt.

  2. #2002
    Straight Hustlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    i thought he was implying that he is a smug patronising cunt.
    I think we all came to that conclusion in spite of any implications he may or may not have made.

  3. #2003
    Donor Aea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight Hustlin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    i thought he was implying that he is a smug patronising cunt.
    I think we all came to that conclusion in spite of any implications he may or may not have made.

  4. #2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight Hustlin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    i thought he was implying that he is a smug patronising cunt.
    I think we all came to that conclusion in spite of any implications he may or may not have made.
    My understanding of why he is how he is has been shattered so that's all I got left. He's probably a pseudo-hipster wish I were. Maybe? I dunno.

  5. #2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    I wonder if the world will stop turning if we stop enforcing what basically amounts to non-crimes.
    If they are non-crimes, wouldn't the better route be to repeal the laws that made those actions crimes?
    With the lobbying power of the American prison system? Good luck with that.
    Appreciated, as a pro-drug-decriminalization/legalization supporter, I know all too well the influence of both that lobby and those who support it.

    Still, the solution to enforcement of non-crimes is repeal, not selective non-enforcement.

    As voters, we cannot allow fear of lobbying power to stop us fromk expressing our policy wishes.

    Because there are ALOT of "crimes" and petty regulations that should really be off the books IMO.
    Please enlighten us about what you are doing about it then. Or, for that matter, what you are planning to do about it.

    Wear a funny hat? To a 'tea-party', secretly funded by oligarchs who own half the GOP perhaps?
    Despite the fact that you are utterly unworthy of any serious reply, you sperging little overcompensating twat, I'll give you one anyway.

    What I am "doing" to promote pro-drug-decriminalization:

    1. I vote Libertarian and for pro-decriminalization candidates.

    2. I donate to Pro-Decriminalization Groups.

    3. I try and educate people in my day to day life on the subject, to the best of my knowledge and abillity, in a civil not cuntinsh manner.

    4. I listen to alot, and I mean ALOT, of Pink Floyd.

    Does that meet your level of expectation, or is there some other way in which you'd like to be a steaming wet pile of cunt today?

    And for the record, my wearing of funny hats has nothing to do with politics. I simply like funny hats.

    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    You (Isyel) are at the ranking top of all the other users in here that consistently just dishes out insults without any other content. You had it coming. Take it like a man and grow up.
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Just in case this isn't clear by now (and it really shouldn't be necessary to point out, you're all grownups) saying that people should be killed because of their political or religious convictions IS NOT FUCKING OK. Tempban handed out in the movie thread. Apply a minimum of self control ffs

  6. #2006
    SAI Peregrinus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    4. I listen to alot, and I mean ALOT, of Pink Floyd.
    http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.co...verything.html

  7. #2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    A single month in which no one knew what was going on? That's fairly meaningless. Give it several months with it well advertised and then see what results are before making sweeping statements.
    God forbid US law-enforcement only booking/arresting people 'when they have to', right? That would be terrible!
    As usual you don't actually understand what that means. There are a number misdemeanors which can be ignored without a law enforcement officer having to face prosecution. For example. If I saw someone spray painting your front door then as a LEO I could ignore it as it wouldn't be a felony unless it looks like it cost more than $500 in damage. Like all US laws that value is going to vary from State to State. Until a complaint was filed then I wouldn't be legally obligated to interfere (maybe the owner decided to write "dick cunt mofo" on their door). Petty crimes don't rate a legal obligation believe it or not nor is this something specific only to the US. Police discretion to arrest has a long legal background and has been solidified in recent years. The biggest case regarding that being Warren v. District of Columbia.

    But petty vandalism isn't the thing to be worried about. It's the fact that no officer is going to cite and/or arrest anyone for running red lights that will probably be more harmful to anything. Wreckless driving such as doing 110mph in a 65mph zone is also a misdemeanor. There are a LOT of little things that officers don't have to arrest or even stop unless "they have to" that many will take for granted. It's not as cute and rosy as you seem to think. No traffic citations is going to scare the hell out the city though as it's always counted on the citizens of the city to have stupid driving habits which is a large source of income.

  8. #2008
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    High levels of police discretion really isn't a good thing. Everybody breaks at least one minor law practically every time they drive. But if an LEO wants to make your day bad they can, or they can just ignore the issue.

  9. #2009
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    I was born in the beginning of August, that makes me a LEO.
    The character of Johnny Appleseed was based on Brasky, except for the part about planting apple trees and not raping men.

  10. #2010
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    An issue with too much dependence on police discretion is that it becomes too easy to systematically target one class of individual over another, creating a self perpetuating cycle of criminality, incarceration and poverty with ramifications throughout the rest of society.

    Oh wait . . .
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  11. #2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    An issue with too much dependence on police discretion is that it becomes too easy to systematically target one class of individual over another, creating a self perpetuating cycle of criminality, incarceration and poverty with ramifications throughout the rest of society.

    Oh wait . . .
    This would never happen.

  12. #2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    High levels of police discretion really isn't a good thing. Everybody breaks at least one minor law practically every time they drive. But if an LEO wants to make your day bad they can, or they can just ignore the issue.
    That's not an enforcement issue, that's a "laws on the books" issue. Discretion means they can overlook thing. No or less discretion means that making your day bad is an obligation for every offense they see. The issue is less about discretion and more about "why is this a punishable offense in the first place".

  13. #2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    High levels of police discretion really isn't a good thing. Everybody breaks at least one minor law practically every time they drive. But if an LEO wants to make your day bad they can, or they can just ignore the issue.
    That's not an enforcement issue, that's a "laws on the books" issue. Discretion means they can overlook thing. No or less discretion means that making your day bad is an obligation for every offense they see. The issue is less about discretion and more about "why is this a punishable offense in the first place".
    We're on the same page.

  14. #2014
    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    As has been mentioned, many petty level crimes that many people would think are non-crimes(such as an out license plate light) are on the books to allow cops to stop people who are potentially guilty of more. I can't say I've seen many license plate light tickets. It's usually just used as a reason to stop someone who looks drunk. This is a fact of how the US legal system has to work. The Constitution lays down a lot of requirements and stipulations that truly are designed to make it hard to lock up criminals. It's no coincidence that it also makes it very hard to lock up innocents. Because of this, the states then create laws to give advantages to the officers, in order to let them have some kind of chance to catch criminals.

    If you want to "solve" this dynamic, you'll have to restructure the entire legal system, including The Constitution. Good luck with that.

  15. #2015
    מלך יהודים Zeekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    As has been mentioned, many petty level crimes that many people would think are non-crimes(such as an out license plate light) are on the books to allow cops to stop people who are potentially guilty of more. I can't say I've seen many license plate light tickets. It's usually just used as a reason to stop someone who looks drunk. This is a fact of how the US legal system has to work. The Constitution lays down a lot of requirements and stipulations that truly are designed to make it hard to lock up criminals. It's no coincidence that it also makes it very hard to lock up innocents. Because of this, the states then create laws to give advantages to the officers, in order to let them have some kind of chance to catch criminals.

    If you want to "solve" this dynamic, you'll have to restructure the entire legal system, including The Constitution. Good luck with that.
    And I thought our legal system was fucking retarded.


    

  16. #2016

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    A single month in which no one knew what was going on? That's fairly meaningless. Give it several months with it well advertised and then see what results are before making sweeping statements.
    God forbid US law-enforcement only booking/arresting people 'when they have to', right? That would be terrible!
    As usual you don't actually understand what that means. There are a number misdemeanors which can be ignored without a law enforcement officer having to face prosecution. For example. If I saw someone spray painting your front door then as a LEO I could ignore it as it wouldn't be a felony unless it looks like it cost more than $500 in damage. Like all US laws that value is going to vary from State to State. Until a complaint was filed then I wouldn't be legally obligated to interfere (maybe the owner decided to write "dick cunt mofo" on their door). Petty crimes don't rate a legal obligation believe it or not nor is this something specific only to the US. Police discretion to arrest has a long legal background and has been solidified in recent years. The biggest case regarding that being Warren v. District of Columbia.

    But petty vandalism isn't the thing to be worried about. It's the fact that no officer is going to cite and/or arrest anyone for running red lights that will probably be more harmful to anything. Wreckless driving such as doing 110mph in a 65mph zone is also a misdemeanor. There are a LOT of little things that officers don't have to arrest or even stop unless "they have to" that many will take for granted. It's not as cute and rosy as you seem to think. No traffic citations is going to scare the hell out the city though as it's always counted on the citizens of the city to have stupid driving habits which is a large source of income.
    I think the biggest issue is the presuction creep that you have in the USA. If a power monger leo wants to he can pretty much detain you, as in he will find something if he wants to.

    I know it varies from state to state. In Holland we now pretty much have the same issue. A cop can, and this is real, pull you over if you are in a car just by racial profiling. We dont call it that but it is just that. We dont have mexicans or blacks like you do but we have romanians, bulgarians, marrocans etc. Its up to the cop if he thinks its a non-eu citizen and he can do a full search (special rules for new EU countries that expire this year).
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  17. #2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    A single month in which no one knew what was going on? That's fairly meaningless. Give it several months with it well advertised and then see what results are before making sweeping statements.
    God forbid US law-enforcement only booking/arresting people 'when they have to', right? That would be terrible!
    As usual you don't actually understand what that means. There are a number misdemeanors which can be ignored without a law enforcement officer having to face prosecution. For example. If I saw someone spray painting your front door then as a LEO I could ignore it as it wouldn't be a felony unless it looks like it cost more than $500 in damage. Like all US laws that value is going to vary from State to State. Until a complaint was filed then I wouldn't be legally obligated to interfere (maybe the owner decided to write "dick cunt mofo" on their door). Petty crimes don't rate a legal obligation believe it or not nor is this something specific only to the US. Police discretion to arrest has a long legal background and has been solidified in recent years. The biggest case regarding that being Warren v. District of Columbia.

    But petty vandalism isn't the thing to be worried about. It's the fact that no officer is going to cite and/or arrest anyone for running red lights that will probably be more harmful to anything. Wreckless driving such as doing 110mph in a 65mph zone is also a misdemeanor. There are a LOT of little things that officers don't have to arrest or even stop unless "they have to" that many will take for granted. It's not as cute and rosy as you seem to think. No traffic citations is going to scare the hell out the city though as it's always counted on the citizens of the city to have stupid driving habits which is a large source of income.
    I think the biggest issue is the presuction creep that you have in the USA. If a power monger leo wants to he can pretty much detain you, as in he will find something if he wants to.

    I know it varies from state to state. In Holland we now pretty much have the same issue.
    Minor laws like this usually have a reason why they were added and some of those reasons are obsolete. But it takes a lot to take those laws off of the books and if there is little political will from citizens then it will never happen. Take for instance the light issue mentioned by Cue1. In Texas and other States, you must have a functioning light above the rear license plate of a vehicle. This is so that police can read the plate while stationary (such as during a speed trap or while observing a 4 way stop). If the citizens of a city or State wanted to, they could easily lobby for this law to be removed as it's not a public safety issue. But that would require signatures and a real push from the citizens who are often apathetic. The same goes for a number of other laws on the books that are frequently added. But again, you have to get your legislators on board and show them that this is worth their time. I don't doubt this this happens exactly the same way in other courtries either.

    Sadly we let this happen to ourselves because Dancing with the Stars is worth our time more than going to a town meeting.

  18. #2018
    Neoo Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    As has been mentioned, many petty level crimes that many people would think are non-crimes(such as an out license plate light) are on the books to allow cops to stop people who are potentially guilty of more. I can't say I've seen many license plate light tickets. It's usually just used as a reason to stop someone who looks drunk. This is a fact of how the US legal system has to work. The Constitution lays down a lot of requirements and stipulations that truly are designed to make it hard to lock up criminals. It's no coincidence that it also makes it very hard to lock up innocents. Because of this, the states then create laws to give advantages to the officers, in order to let them have some kind of chance to catch criminals.

    If you want to "solve" this dynamic, you'll have to restructure the entire legal system, including The Constitution. Good luck with that.
    As tax paying citizens, most people really don't care that there are "excuses" like "your tail light is out, is everything ok" that allows leos to approach people they think are acting suspect or doing something they think is illegal but have no proof. What people do care about is when leos act without integrity or with bad character in that they use these laws to treat the citizenry as a money faucet to fund their departments, not to mention, to harass people that are otherwise just going about their business without a negative effect to society at large.

    Issues like entrapment, cruising for tickets, harassing people, acting disrespectfully etc all add negatively to peoples perceptions (as it should).

    But if a cop sees someone driving somewhat weird but not reckless, and they use the license plate law to stop the driver and discover that he/she is DUI, and acts on that, then everyone is happier because that cop potentially saved lives (including the drunk).

    I'll go so far as to say that the problem is not the excuse laws, but the people with lack of good character that abuse them, and tarnish the rest by their actions.

  19. #2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    As has been mentioned, many petty level crimes that many people would think are non-crimes(such as an out license plate light) are on the books to allow cops to stop people who are potentially guilty of more. I can't say I've seen many license plate light tickets. It's usually just used as a reason to stop someone who looks drunk. This is a fact of how the US legal system has to work. The Constitution lays down a lot of requirements and stipulations that truly are designed to make it hard to lock up criminals. It's no coincidence that it also makes it very hard to lock up innocents. Because of this, the states then create laws to give advantages to the officers, in order to let them have some kind of chance to catch criminals.

    If you want to "solve" this dynamic, you'll have to restructure the entire legal system, including The Constitution. Good luck with that.
    As tax paying citizens, most people really don't care that there are "excuses" like "your tail light is out, is everything ok" that allows leos to approach people they think are acting suspect or doing something they think is illegal but have no proof. What people do care about is when leos act without integrity or with bad character in that they use these laws to treat the citizenry as a money faucet to fund their departments, not to mention, to harass people that are otherwise just going about their business without a negative effect to society at large.

    Issues like entrapment, cruising for tickets, harassing people, acting disrespectfully etc all add negatively to peoples perceptions (as it should).

    But if a cop sees someone driving somewhat weird but not reckless, and they use the license plate law to stop the driver and discover that he/she is DUI, and acts on that, then everyone is happier because that cop potentially saved lives (including the drunk).

    I'll go so far as to say that the problem is not the excuse laws, but the people with lack of good character that abuse them, and tarnish the rest by their actions.
    That is, at its heart, the same problem that occurs with dictatorships. A benign dictator can be amazing for a country but as soon as an arsehole gets that power the country is fucked.

    The only solution to that was to eliminate dictatorships and accept the inefficiencies of Democracy.

    The problem is the excuse laws. A system that works great with paragons and fails with arseholes is not suitable for use by humans.

  20. #2020
    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    As tax paying citizens, most people really don't care that there are "excuses" like "your tail light is out, is everything ok" that allows leos to approach people they think are acting suspect or doing something they think is illegal but have no proof. What people do care about is when leos act without integrity or with bad character in that they use these laws to treat the citizenry as a money faucet to fund their departments, not to mention, to harass people that are otherwise just going about their business without a negative effect to society at large.
    So there are certainly douchebag cops who harass someone for no reason, just because he's bored or what have you, but it's surprisingly less common than you think. You see videos of "innocent civilians" being harassed by cops on youtube all the time, but I have yet to see one that isn't a direct response to something the civilian did, that made the cop suspicious. Most of the videos I've seen, are of people trying to be a lawyer to a cop by open carrying, only rolling their window down a few inches, refusing to provide ID, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    the citizenry as a money faucet to fund their departments
    So this is a pretty big misnomer. I don't know how it works in other states, but in my state, there is absolutely zero money from any ticket or actually any offense charged that leads back to the department. For any ticket written, all of the money goes to the state's general account after court costs are subtracted. The sole exception to this would be money paid by an offender for damage to police property, because the police department represents the victim(an example would be a car accident where the fault is not on the officer).


    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    cruising for tickets
    Tickets are supposed to make people obey traffic laws. As it turns out, automobile accidents causes more deaths in the US than murder, and driver error account for 90% of those accidents(5% is accounted to mechanical failure, and another 5% is accounted to uncontrollable circumstances). In the money spectrum, car accidents cause nearly 900 billion dollars in damage, and speeding alone contributes to more than 200 billion dollars of that. I don't know about you, but I personally feel that 'cruising for tickets' is actually a valuable use of a LEO's time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    acting disrespectfully etc all add negatively to peoples perceptions (as it should).
    Cops are assholes. The best cop in the US is an asshole. That's because it's written into the job description. Understand that the job of a LEO often means making people do things they don't want to do, like go to jail. Generally speaking, making someone do something they don't want to do is going to make them upset. As it happens, when people get upset they often speak, and that's something that they don't have to do. In fact, the law goes to great extent to protect an individual's right to remain silent. However, when upset, people tend to talk, and usually they talk about why they're upset.

    As a sidebar, cops who are assholes when handing out traffic tickets are usually just carrying the attitude over from other situations, as it's not really helpful to be an ass on traffic stops.

    If a cop arrests someone for possession of marijuana, and the offender gets upset at the cop, and asks why he's being arrested for such a small amount of marijuana, then the cop's job is suddenly many times easier. He no longer needs to prove that it's marijuana, nor does he need to prove that the offender possessed it, the guy admitted to it. This saves a lot of time, time the officer can spend finding other criminals. Why wouldn't a cop be an asshole?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    That is, at its heart, the same problem that occurs with dictatorships. A benign dictator can be amazing for a country but as soon as an arsehole gets that power the country is fucked.

    The only solution to that was to eliminate dictatorships and accept the inefficiencies of Democracy.

    The problem is the excuse laws. A system that works great with paragons and fails with arseholes is not suitable for use by humans.
    Like I said, best answer is to restructure the entire US legal system. Good luck with that. There may be an answer where you actually just make the "excuse laws" non-enforceable. You can stop someone for them, but you can't actually charge them with the crime. However, that leads down the path of why not just let cops stop anyone for what the courts have already decided is a reasonable time(20 minutes)?

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