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Thread: St Louis - Muskets Thread (USA civil unrest)

  1. #9101
    thebomby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameisValidandNotinUs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/10/us/dyl...ial/index.html

    Dylann Roof (Charleston Church Shooter/Racist) sentenced to death.

    And Justice will be done.

    In before the usual "but, but the Death Penalty is wrong and cruel and we shouldn't have it!!!" responses.
    inb4ing doesn't make the death penalty right you baddie
    You go right ahead and argue for sparing Dylann Roof's life. Best of luck.
    If even a single person is wrongly put to death by the state (protip, there have been potentially hundreds) then the death sentence should be removed.

    There's no point looking at a single case. The big picture is more important.
    I'll be sure to add you to the "Save Dylann Roof's life" side of the ledger.
    I care more about the principle than the single case.

    Mainly because I'm not a short sighted conservative who can only form opinion based on emotion and populist rhetoric.
    See Alistair, this is what happens when you go completely full conservative, I have to agree with Keckers.
    Agree all you like my friend, I'm going to enjoy hearing (sadly, in about 10 years the way our system works) that Roof is dead, and I hope the little fuck suffers frankly.

    The "if you fuck it up once, we have to shelve the whole thing" concept is as dumb as "no matter how many fuck'ups we find we still must kill em' all" side of the argument.

    There is no doubt or question Roof, a horrible racist pig, is guilty of this crime, and I'm glad he's going to burn in hell for what he did to those poor people in that church.

    The "I believe in the principle" people are the same folks who think we should spare Roof's life, give him free taxpayer-funded college, healthcare, a nice cell with a comfy bed, TV, and access to pretty farm to walk around, maybe some conjugal visits if some nutbar falls in love with him via mail, and of course therapy, and maybe they'll just release him back into society in a few years once he's vaguely been "reformed".

    So yeah, guess I'm close to full conservative here, and glad to do it. The hatred of the victims that is personified in the "nope, lets rehabilitate him" side disgusts me.
    You do realise there are more shades of grey (lol) than black and white? While I personally think that yes, the fucker should be killed, the argument that innocents are being killed is an important one, especially considering some of the people who have been released after having spent half their lives in jail for crimes they didn't commit are ruined for life. There is also space to think that someone like Roof would not get any decent treatment in jail, and would have to be kept in solitary to prevent him getting access to other nazi motherfuckers.
    Будь смиренным, будь кротким, не заботься о тленном
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  2. #9102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Agree all you like my friend, I'm going to enjoy hearing (sadly, in about 10 years the way our system works) that Roof is dead, and I hope the little fuck suffers frankly.

    The "if you fuck it up once, we have to shelve the whole thing" concept is as dumb as "no matter how many fuck'ups we find we still must kill em' all" side of the argument.

    There is no doubt or question Roof, a horrible racist pig, is guilty of this crime, and I'm glad he's going to burn in hell for what he did to those poor people in that church.

    The "I believe in the principle" people are the same folks who think we should spare Roof's life, give him free taxpayer-funded college, healthcare, a nice cell with a comfy bed, TV, and access to pretty farm to walk around, maybe some conjugal visits if some nutbar falls in love with him via mail, and of course therapy, and maybe they'll just release him back into society in a few years once he's vaguely been "reformed".

    So yeah, guess I'm close to full conservative here, and glad to do it. The hatred of the victims that is personified in the "nope, lets rehabilitate him" side disgusts me.
    So you want to be able to execute the worst of the worst. Timothy McVeigh used to be the poster child, now it's Dylan Roof.

    And you think it's worth the risk that by having the death penalty available, the State might kill an innocent person (it's happened before, it'll happen again).

    And you think you're in a position to mock people who disagree, and do not feel that the risk of killing innocent people is worth slating the bloodlust of those who would rather see Roof killed than simply locked in a cell for the next 80 years.
    Totally not Victoria Stecker forgetting his password and not having access to his work email.

  3. #9103
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebomby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameisValidandNotinUs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameisValidandNotinUs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/10/us/dyl...ial/index.html

    Dylann Roof (Charleston Church Shooter/Racist) sentenced to death.

    And Justice will be done.

    In before the usual "but, but the Death Penalty is wrong and cruel and we shouldn't have it!!!" responses.
    inb4ing doesn't make the death penalty right you baddie
    You go right ahead and argue for sparing Dylann Roof's life. Best of luck.
    If even a single person is wrongly put to death by the state (protip, there have been potentially hundreds) then the death sentence should be removed.

    There's no point looking at a single case. The big picture is more important.
    I'll be sure to add you to the "Save Dylann Roof's life" side of the ledger.
    I care more about the principle than the single case.

    Mainly because I'm not a short sighted conservative who can only form opinion based on emotion and populist rhetoric.
    See Alistair, this is what happens when you go completely full conservative, I have to agree with Keckers.
    Agree all you like my friend, I'm going to enjoy hearing (sadly, in about 10 years the way our system works) that Roof is dead, and I hope the little fuck suffers frankly.

    The "if you fuck it up once, we have to shelve the whole thing" concept is as dumb as "no matter how many fuck'ups we find we still must kill em' all" side of the argument.

    There is no doubt or question Roof, a horrible racist pig, is guilty of this crime, and I'm glad he's going to burn in hell for what he did to those poor people in that church.

    The "I believe in the principle" people are the same folks who think we should spare Roof's life, give him free taxpayer-funded college, healthcare, a nice cell with a comfy bed, TV, and access to pretty farm to walk around, maybe some conjugal visits if some nutbar falls in love with him via mail, and of course therapy, and maybe they'll just release him back into society in a few years once he's vaguely been "reformed".

    So yeah, guess I'm close to full conservative here, and glad to do it. The hatred of the victims that is personified in the "nope, lets rehabilitate him" side disgusts me.
    You do realise there are more shades of grey (lol) than black and white? While I personally think that yes, the fucker should be killed, the argument that innocents are being killed is an important one, especially considering some of the people who have been released after having spent half their lives in jail for crimes they didn't commit are ruined for life. There is also space to think that someone like Roof would not get any decent treatment in jail, and would have to be kept in solitary to prevent him getting access to other nazi motherfuckers.
    Shades of Grey such as "Roof is 100% guilty and deserves to die, and having that view does not mean I want or support innocent people being killed by the State".

    You don't say...
    "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong." Jean-Jacques Rousseau



  4. #9104
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    By the way, in the "wrongful death sentences" concern, I think this is relevant:

    Quote Originally Posted by CNN
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/12/us/dylann-roof-death-penalty-explainer/index.html

    How often does the federal government execute convicts?

    Very rarely -- especially compared with some of the 31 states that enforce capital punishment.

    In fact, the federal government hasn't executed anyone in 14 years.

    The federal death penalty was reinstated in 1988 after a 16-year moratorium. Since then, only three federal inmates have been executed -- all in Terre Haute, Indiana.

    -- Timothy McVeigh, for the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing that killed 168 people. He was executed on June 11, 2001.

    -- Juan Raul Garza, who was convicted of killing three people and running a marijuana drug ring in Texas. He was executed on June 19, 2001.

    -- Louis Jones, for the kidnapping and murder of 19-year-old Army Pvt. Tracie McBride. He was executed on March 18, 2003.
    Were any of these people wrongfully convicted/innocent?

    This isn't Texas, where perhaps an argument can be made for stricter application of the death penalty and how it's applied and to whom.

    The Feds generally don't kill you unless it's a seriously open and shut case.

    You don't get a much more open and shut case than Roof.

    So why, I'd ask, is it wrong to support the law and the death penalty for Roof on a singlar basis? I'm not cheering every death penalty case ever, I'm cheering THIS one.
    "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong." Jean-Jacques Rousseau



  5. #9105

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    I'm still amazed that people consider death to be a lesser punishment than spending the next 80 years in an American jail.

    Death is just as much an end to suffering as it is an end to joy and you can guarantee that Roofs time in jail would be far more unpleasant than oblivion.

    If you are targeting just one person individually as a unique case then the last real justification for a death sentence (general deterrence) vanishes.
    Last edited by Nicholai Pestot; January 12 2017 at 03:52:33 PM.

  6. #9106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post

    So why, I'd ask, is it wrong to support the law and the death penalty for Roof on a singlar basis? I'm not cheering every death penalty case ever, I'm cheering THIS one.
    Sure, you can support Roof's execution.

    It's a question of whether we can have that without the nasty side-effects.

    As long as the death penalty is legal, we're going to have things like Texas, which will happily put people on death row via prosecutorial malfeasance.

    And the case in North Carolina (I think) where a dude was convicted of killing a cop entirely on witness testimony, and something like seven out of nine witnesses later recanted and said they'd been pressured heavily by the police. But the State's final decision was, "Well, he messed up some of the paperwork for his appeal, so we're not required to give him another chance and we're gonna kill him anyway." Sure, there's still a chance that that guy is guilty, but it's no longer the air-tight slam dunk that a case like Roof or McVeigh is.

    And this will continue to happen as long as the death penalty is legal.

    You may not be 'cheering' for those, but you have to at least accept them in order to cheer for this 'singular' case.

    And I don't think the cost is worth it.


      Spoiler:
    I guess if we took the power of execution away from the states, that would end most of these problems, but good luck getting that to fly.
    Totally not Victoria Stecker forgetting his password and not having access to his work email.

  7. #9107
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebomby View Post
    You do realise there are more shades of grey (lol) than black and white? While I personally think that yes, the fucker should be killed, the argument that innocents are being killed is an important one, especially considering some of the people who have been released after having spent half their lives in jail for crimes they didn't commit are ruined for life. There is also space to think that someone like Roof would not get any decent treatment in jail, and would have to be kept in solitary to prevent him getting access to other nazi motherfuckers.
    Your arguments are too confusing. Lets just kill people we don't like. It's working for America.

    There's this really weird mixture of 'muh freedoms' and the death penalty going on down there. I don't see how you can be so obsessed with freedom and simultaneously support giving the state the right to kill citizens.
    Maybe they're delusional and think that because such a harsh penalty does exist it must mean that it's because they've been given tons of freedoms.
    Last edited by Frug; January 12 2017 at 04:50:28 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loire
    I'm too stupid to say anything that deserves being in your magnificent signature.

  8. #9108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post

    And the case in North Carolina (I think) where a dude was convicted of killing a cop entirely on witness testimony, and something like seven out of nine witnesses later recanted and said they'd been pressured heavily by the police.
    Generally, being a witness in the States is such a shitshow that I'm surprised anyone willingly steps forward

  9. #9109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Your arguments are too confusing. Lets just kill people we don't like. It's working for America.
    "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong." Jean-Jacques Rousseau



  10. #9110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    Alistair thinks prison doesnt sound too bad because his weight prevents him from leaving his house
    The internet: making weak little nerds awful brave since 1990.
    talking about your own posting history of complete idiocy nobody can avoid i assume?

  11. #9111
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frug View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by thebomby View Post
    You do realise there are more shades of grey (lol) than black and white? While I personally think that yes, the fucker should be killed, the argument that innocents are being killed is an important one, especially considering some of the people who have been released after having spent half their lives in jail for crimes they didn't commit are ruined for life. There is also space to think that someone like Roof would not get any decent treatment in jail, and would have to be kept in solitary to prevent him getting access to other nazi motherfuckers.
    Your arguments are too confusing. Lets just kill people we don't like. It's working for America.

    There's this really weird mixture of 'muh freedoms' and the death penalty going on down there. I don't see how you can be so obsessed with freedom and simultaneously support giving the state the right to kill citizens.
    Maybe they're delusional and think that because such a harsh penalty does exist it must mean that it's because they've been given tons of freedoms.
    Because people imagine that it's only ever "them" who will be crushed by the state.

    For example, the NRA used to be all in favour of stricter gun control in the 60s and 70s
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  12. #9112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Death is just as much an end to suffering as it is an end to joy and you can guarantee that Roofs time in jail would be far more unpleasant than oblivion.
    You are forgetting the role religion plays in America. Around 70% of the people believe in life after death. And most of them want to hasten criminals on into a literal lake of fire for the rest of eternity.

    [no sarcasm]

  13. #9113
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    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...mepage%2Fstory

    With a choice quote by our new Attorney Generation to-be:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Sessions
    Speaking on Capitol Hill during his confirmation hearing this week, Sessions suggested that entire departments filled with good officers could be tarred by the work of individuals and was critical of lawsuits that force reforms.

    “These lawsuits undermine the respect for police officers and create an impression that the entire department is not doing their work consistent with fidelity to law and fairness, and we need to be careful before we do that,” Sessions said. He would not commit to leaving unchanged agreements that are in place when he takes over, though he said he would enforce them until changes are made.

  14. #9114
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrynRedbeard View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Death is just as much an end to suffering as it is an end to joy and you can guarantee that Roofs time in jail would be far more unpleasant than oblivion.
    You are forgetting the role religion plays in America. Around 70% of the people believe in life after death. And most of them want to hasten criminals on into a literal lake of fire for the rest of eternity.

    [no sarcasm]
    How many yanks believe in angels?

  15. #9115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BrynRedbeard View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Death is just as much an end to suffering as it is an end to joy and you can guarantee that Roofs time in jail would be far more unpleasant than oblivion.
    You are forgetting the role religion plays in America. Around 70% of the people believe in life after death. And most of them want to hasten criminals on into a literal lake of fire for the rest of eternity.

    [no sarcasm]
    How many yanks believe in angels?
    A poll seems to suggest that approx. 77% of the adult population: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-nea...eve-in-angels/

    Did not go to look at the original poll, cannot vouch for veracity.

    Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point. - Blaise Pascal, Pensées, 277

  16. #9116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BrynRedbeard View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Death is just as much an end to suffering as it is an end to joy and you can guarantee that Roofs time in jail would be far more unpleasant than oblivion.
    You are forgetting the role religion plays in America. Around 70% of the people believe in life after death. And most of them want to hasten criminals on into a literal lake of fire for the rest of eternity.

    [no sarcasm]
    How many yanks believe in angels?
    How many Euros believe in Angels?

    I'll wager the ratio is going to align pretty well with those who are practicing religious.
    "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong." Jean-Jacques Rousseau



  17. #9117
    evil edna's Avatar
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    So a lot more in burgerstan then

  18. #9118
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    So a lot more in burgerstan then
    Don't underestimate how many angel lovin' adherents Euroland has. Italy, Ireland, Poland, etc.

    Plus all your inbound Allyour Snackbars.

    But aye, we likely win that one. Or should I say "win".
    "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong." Jean-Jacques Rousseau



  19. #9119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BrynRedbeard View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Death is just as much an end to suffering as it is an end to joy and you can guarantee that Roofs time in jail would be far more unpleasant than oblivion.
    You are forgetting the role religion plays in America. Around 70% of the people believe in life after death. And most of them want to hasten criminals on into a literal lake of fire for the rest of eternity.

    [no sarcasm]
    How many yanks believe in angels?
    How many Euros believe in Angels?

    I'll wager the ratio is going to align pretty well with those who are practicing religious.
    "While Italians and Croatians are on par with Americans, for instance, no more than a third of Danes believe in angels—somewhere between 25 and 33 percent, according to the European Values Study. The English are similarly low; just 36 percent believe in angels, according to Gallup.

    These numbers seem to roughly correlate to belief in God."
    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...in-angels.html

    In Holland its <20%.
    Last edited by Sacul; January 13 2017 at 09:15:29 PM.

  20. #9120
    evil edna's Avatar
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    Im actually somewhat disapointed that 36% of people in my country believe in angels what the fuck

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