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Thread: St Louis - Muskets Thread (USA civil unrest)

  1. #11341
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    It can't be stressed enough how much the myth of the creation of America is centered around the gun.

    It's not just the old West. It was already there with "the gunshot heard around the world," the opening shot of the Battle of Lexington in 1775. It took until the 20th century to incorporate the last states. The Wild West existed until the Oklahoma Land Run of 1889 and the Massacre at Wounded Knee in 1890. As a quick reminder, that's the same year as the German Social Democrat party being founded, the Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde was published, Colonel Sanders, Eisenhower and Molotov were born.
    So not too long ago (in the grand scheme of things) carrying a gun was seen as a necessity by Americans.

    Tapapapatalk
    Yep. Americans have two core mythologies.

    1. Freedom means shooting the Tyrant Government if they do anything you don't like.

    2. Only the Gun can provide Freedom, see above.
    3. Poor people deserve it

  2. #11342
    OrangeAfroMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    It can't be stressed enough how much the myth of the creation of America is centered around the gun.

    It's not just the old West. It was already there with "the gunshot heard around the world," the opening shot of the Battle of Lexington in 1775. It took until the 20th century to incorporate the last states. The Wild West existed until the Oklahoma Land Run of 1889 and the Massacre at Wounded Knee in 1890. As a quick reminder, that's the same year as the German Social Democrat party being founded, the Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde was published, Colonel Sanders, Eisenhower and Molotov were born.
    So not too long ago (in the grand scheme of things) carrying a gun was seen as a necessity by Americans.

    Tapapapatalk
    Yep. Americans have two core mythologies.

    1. Freedom means shooting the Tyrant Government if they do anything you don't like.

    2. Only the Gun can provide Freedom, see above.
    3. Poor people deserve it
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    In some places, carrying a gun is still pretty essential, like the mountains (protect against dangerous wildlife)

    America absolutely has a gun problem. And a social identity problem, and a mental health care problem. Does any of that matter? No, the electorate doesn't mind the trade off of easy gun ownership VS unnecessary deaths. Period. :l
    Actually an '06.

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  3. #11343
    Super Chillerator Global Moderator teds :D's Avatar
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    despite the entrenched views on gun ownership among americans it just blows my mind how the average school shooting doesn't just make meaningful change happen. school shooting in UK and a mass shooting in AUS brought around their respective change.

    and yes, i get that multiple times more people get shot on a daily basis than the deathtoll from a school shooting

  4. #11344
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    Americans value other peoples lives far less than most Europeans.

    Just another facet of American exceptionalism

  5. #11345
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    despite the entrenched views on gun ownership among americans it just blows my mind how the average school shooting doesn't just make meaningful change happen. school shooting in UK and a mass shooting in AUS brought around their respective change.

    and yes, i get that multiple times more people get shot on a daily basis than the deathtoll from a school shooting
    Major loss of life here rarely results in "meaningful change". Plane crashes, a building burns down, boat sinks, a train speeds round a curve too fast, etc, kills XXX people, it very rarely causes "meaningful change", if it even causes incremental minor change at that, and certainly not quickly or the first time the issue arises.

    That's not a defense of the lack of change, just an observation on how it goes here.


  6. #11346
    jimmychrist's Avatar
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    If only the Sandy Hook massacre had been perpetrated by Janet Jackson's nipple, we could have seen some real change

  7. #11347
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmychrist View Post
    If only the Sandy Hook massacre had been perpetrated by Janet Jackson's nipple, we could have seen some real change
    America is Puritan when it comes to sex, no doubt about it. Just look at film ratings......100 blown apart dead guys killed by guns, PG. One vagina or dear lord a penis.....R. Maybe even NC17.

    Another of our founding issues.


  8. #11348
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmychrist View Post
    If only the Sandy Hook massacre had been perpetrated by Janet Jackson's nipple, we could have seen some real change
    America is Puritan when it comes to sex, no doubt about it. Just look at film ratings......100 blown apart dead guys killed by guns, PG. One vagina or dear lord a penis.....R. Maybe even NC17.

    Another of our founding issues.
    The echoes of the puritans, religious fanatics too extreme to remain in europe, poison american culture to this day. Shame the Mayflower wasn't waylaid by pirates.

  9. #11349
    Neoo Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    despite the entrenched views on gun ownership among americans it just blows my mind how the average school shooting doesn't just make meaningful change happen. school shooting in UK and a mass shooting in AUS brought around their respective change.

    and yes, i get that multiple times more people get shot on a daily basis than the deathtoll from a school shooting
    despite the entrenched views on diversity, religious tolerance and Islam among Britons it just blows my mind how the average terrorist attack doesn't just make meaningful change happen. suicide bombings in Israel and 9/11 in USA brought around their respective change.

    and yes, i get that multiple times more teen girls get groomed and raped on a daily basis than the deathtoll from a terrorist attack.

  10. #11350

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    despite the entrenched views on gun ownership among americans it just blows my mind how the average school shooting doesn't just make meaningful change happen. school shooting in UK and a mass shooting in AUS brought around their respective change.

    and yes, i get that multiple times more people get shot on a daily basis than the deathtoll from a school shooting
    Major loss of life here rarely results in "meaningful change". Plane crashes, a building burns down, boat sinks, a train speeds round a curve too fast, etc, kills XXX people, it very rarely causes "meaningful change", if it even causes incremental minor change at that, and certainly not quickly or the first time the issue arises.

    That's not a defense of the lack of change, just an observation on how it goes here.
    Plane crashes are actually an interesting exception to this. Almost every major commercial airline disaster has had an impact, and the current rules and regs are the result of decades of "whoops, let's make sure that doesn't happen again." And, in general, it's worked.

    Why we don't take a similar approach to other deadly problems is an interesting (and depressing) question.
    Totally not Victoria Stecker forgetting his password and not having access to his work email.

  11. #11351
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    Hey remember how Titanic didn't change anything?

  12. #11352

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    despite the entrenched views on gun ownership among americans it just blows my mind how the average school shooting doesn't just make meaningful change happen. school shooting in UK and a mass shooting in AUS brought around their respective change.

    and yes, i get that multiple times more people get shot on a daily basis than the deathtoll from a school shooting
    despite the entrenched views on diversity, religious tolerance and Islam among Britons it just blows my mind how the average terrorist attack doesn't just make meaningful change happen. suicide bombings in Israel and 9/11 in USA brought around their respective change.

    and yes, i get that multiple times more teen girls get groomed and raped on a daily basis than the deathtoll from a terrorist attack.
    Get out.

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  13. #11353
    Movember 2012 Stoffl's Avatar
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    Neeeeöööööö Gabrilöööööl
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  14. #11354
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    he does have a point tho

  15. #11355
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Overall America's gun problem should be fairly low down the list of priorities when it comes to improving life for Americans. There are far more pressing issues with easier fixes.
    The last figures I recall were approx. 30k gun deaths per year. That's about 500% of the average casualty rate of the Vietnam war. (~60k over 10 years)

    I mean Americans seem to be pretty relaxed about it, so I guess its not a major problem, but if it was my country I'd be a little concerned about avoidable death rates equal to 5 simulataneous state-level conflicts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  16. #11356
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    he does have a point tho
    Stalin had about 10 million soviet citizens killed or relocated to labor camps, but lots of Russians still think he was pretty great.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  17. #11357
    Varcaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    he does have a point tho
    Stalin had about 10 million soviet citizens killed or relocated to labor camps, but lots of Russians still think he was pretty great.
    Russians drink to much drain cleaner and think anyones great. Hey razor how putin?

  18. #11358
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Overall America's gun problem should be fairly low down the list of priorities when it comes to improving life for Americans. There are far more pressing issues with easier fixes.
    The last figures I recall were approx. 30k gun deaths per year. That's about 500% of the average casualty rate of the Vietnam war. (~60k over 10 years)

    I mean Americans seem to be pretty relaxed about it, so I guess its not a major problem, but if it was my country I'd be a little concerned about avoidable death rates equal to 5 simulataneous state-level conflicts.
    Banning guns wouldn't be good for business though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  19. #11359

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pesadelo View Post
    I am not trying to say bad things about USA or making this a Dick measuring contest vs EU , because God knows EU got some very violent times even on the 60 an 70 /80 , but it seems to me Americans having acess and availability to guns is part of the problem for them as a society .

    There are ample sucessfull stories from across the world in this but I guess their constitution law , but I think that making it harder to buy semi automatic etc guns without a small control will be a bigger problem down the line.

    Enviado do meu SM-G900F através do Tapatalk
    Non-Americans often take a "duh, just change the Constitution" or "duh, just ignore the Constitution and ban um' anyway" tact. Unfortunately, neither is a real world solution given the current makeup of the U.S. electorate.
    I don't think you need either of it. Just a rational Supreme Court ruling/reinterpretation of the 2nd amendment, IMHO. Stressing the ...
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
    ... part of it and making being a member of such a well regulated Militia a mandatory prerequist for gun ownership. And let federal law dictate what constitues a well regulated militia. Problem solved!

    Yeah, I know, not gonna happen ... but there are ways around, withoout medling with the constitution itself. Which I always find troublesome.

  20. #11360
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pesadelo View Post
    I am not trying to say bad things about USA or making this a Dick measuring contest vs EU , because God knows EU got some very violent times even on the 60 an 70 /80 , but it seems to me Americans having acess and availability to guns is part of the problem for them as a society .

    There are ample sucessfull stories from across the world in this but I guess their constitution law , but I think that making it harder to buy semi automatic etc guns without a small control will be a bigger problem down the line.

    Enviado do meu SM-G900F através do Tapatalk
    Non-Americans often take a "duh, just change the Constitution" or "duh, just ignore the Constitution and ban um' anyway" tact. Unfortunately, neither is a real world solution given the current makeup of the U.S. electorate.
    I don't think you need either of it. Just a rational Supreme Court ruling/reinterpretation of the 2nd amendment, IMHO. Stressing the ...
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
    ... part of it and making being a member of such a well regulated Militia a mandatory prerequist for gun ownership. And let federal law dictate what constitues a well regulated militia. Problem solved!

    Yeah, I know, not gonna happen ... but there are ways around, withoout medling with the constitution itself. Which I always find troublesome.

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