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Thread: St Louis - Muskets Thread (USA civil unrest)

  1. #11321
    thebomby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    bla bla
    Yes, I am being a sensitive snowflake about Switzerland because, honestly, you just suck crap out of your arse and post it as knowledge. It's not whataboutism. I don't agree with the way a lot of things are and were done in Switzerland, the WWII jewish gold scandal being one that I don't actually care much about because it was a bankers-being-greedy-fuck-opportunists non-shocker. I care, for instance, more about the Verdingbuben, kids from penniless families who were sent off into virtual slavery as unpaid farmhands right up until the early 70s. This was common practice in much of northern europe up until the 1920s but because Switzerland avoided both wars and the resultant huge social upheavals, it went on here much longer. It's a fucking crime against humanity and a national shame and I've known people who grew up in that shithole system, and somebody should hang for it, but no one ever will.

    But Switzerland didn't do Vietnam, Alistair. Neither did Switzerland do Iraq and Afghanistan with the resulting fucking chaos and mass death that ensued. That's my whataboutism to your whataboutism. You want some more? Come to Switzerland and look at all the homeless people sleeping on our streets. Terrible shame, that one. Maybe we should ask some wise American president how to deal with that? Maybe we should shoot them? What do you think?

    Here's a screenshot from the official Swiss statistics site on filthy furriners:



    If you bother to take a look at that image, you'll see that most of them come here for work because they can make more money here than where they come from. They mostly live, in the Swiss-German speaking areas, which means, even for Germans, that they will be having to cope with a language that isn't even written and whose various dialects are different enough that even natives have some difficulty in some areas (Wallis dialect for example). In other words, just like Mexicans, they're economic immigrants. They're just here legally. And while Switzerland has a huge amount of xenophobic fucksticks who, just like in murica, bri'ain, polan and elsewhere, vote against having foreigners in the country (unless they're prostitutes, of course because then no one cares), this country would be utterly fucked without them.

    But this thread is ultimately not my Swiss penis versus your Murican penis. It's about guns, how many people have them and why just about no other country in the world with some very dark exceptions, has the number of gun deaths that the US does. The answer is not what our resident gun-nut Metacannibal preaches, it's culture. Culture and the second amendment and the fact that the US constitution is like a bible to most Americans when it suits them, but something to be politely ignored when it doesn't. If people grow up without being exposed to everyone having guns and abusing them, then they generally don't abuse them themselves. The laws are vastly different here as well. If you shoot someone, even in self defence, you will be charged with manslaughter at the very least. In other words, the society is not conducive to people solving problems with guns. It still happens, but it's rare, and gun-nuts are anything but popular here. They exist, but they tend to stick to other gun-nuts, because most people just aren't interested.
    Будь смиренным, будь кротким, не заботься о тленном
    Власти, данной Богом, сынок, будь навеки верным...
    Я люблю Росcию, я - патриот

  2. #11322
    evil edna's Avatar
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    no the problem is gangs. gangs and pcp

  3. #11323
    thebomby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    no the problem is gangs. gangs and pcp
    That rhymes with Bob
    Будь смиренным, будь кротким, не заботься о тленном
    Власти, данной Богом, сынок, будь навеки верным...
    Я люблю Росcию, я - патриот

  4. #11324
    Donor Aea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    no the problem is gangs. gangs and pcp
    And naggers.


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  5. #11325
    Movember 2012 Stoffl's Avatar
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    The pcp gang naggers - a 90s Hip Hop supergroup
    2/10/17 Greatposthellpurge never forget
    23/10/17 The Greatreposteninging ?

  6. #11326
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    Alister did you ever visited Europe ?

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  7. #11327
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    Let's be honest, "visiting" a place doesn't actually give you insight into its ins and outs, especially not on a complex issue such as the one we're talking about here.

    Europe is relatively low on the gun incident scale compared to the US, but also remember that in the last 105 years we had more than a couple wars here that put US bodycounts to shame. Which one of us is "better"?
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  8. #11328
    Caldrion Dosto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    Let's be honest, "visiting" a place doesn't actually give you insight into its ins and outs, especially not on a complex issue such as the one we're talking about here.

    Europe is relatively low on the gun incident scale compared to the US, but also remember that in the last 105 years we had more than a couple wars here that put US bodycounts to shame. Which one of us is "better"?
    The main difference is we have learnt something from those calamities. And tried to do something about it (EU) which people forget is first and foremost a peace project, not a political or trade project.

    I would say Australia did handle "your" problem as you should. And guess what, it actually works!

  9. #11329
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebomby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    bla bla
    Yes, I am being a sensitive snowflake about Switzerland.
    TLDR of half your post: Switzerland is neutral and has made some mistakes, but WHATABOUT blah blah blah!!!!!.

    Off topic and irrelevant to the discussion. No one disputes (here at FHC at least) the many MANY shit things the US has done and is doing.

    And I've said it before, and will say it again, Switzerland does a number of things better than we do. And yes, I will be visiting your country at some point, it's certainly on my list.

    If you bother to take a look at that image, you'll see that most of them come here for work because they can make more money here than where they come from.
    The issue wasn't why they come, the issue was relative diversity not being factored into the "why do different places have different results" discussion.

    You've made it all about your sensitivity and your country, needlessly so frankly. And you've not countered what I said, you've only supported it with that image, which shows clearly that the vast majority of your foreigners are other Europeans.

    But this thread is ultimately not my Swiss penis versus your Murican penis.
    Mate, you're the guy who made it all about your strident (and massive overreaction) defense of Switzerland. Your overreaction has been epic, but pointless.

    It's about guns, how many people have them and why just about no other country in the world with some very dark exceptions, has the number of gun deaths that the US does. The answer is not what our resident gun-nut Metacannibal preaches, it's culture. Culture and the second amendment and the fact that the US constitution is like a bible to most Americans when it suits them, but something to be politely ignored when it doesn't. If people grow up without being exposed to everyone having guns and abusing them, then they generally don't abuse them themselves. The laws are vastly different here as well. If you shoot someone, even in self defence, you will be charged with manslaughter at the very least. In other words, the society is not conducive to people solving problems with guns. It still happens, but it's rare, and gun-nuts are anything but popular here. They exist, but they tend to stick to other gun-nuts, because most people just aren't interested.
    See, now THIS is a good post, on topic, accurate (IMO) and relevant.
    Last edited by Alistair; January 11 2018 at 02:32:45 PM.


  10. #11330
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pesadelo View Post
    Alister did you ever visited Europe ?

    Enviado do meu SM-G900F através do Tapatalk
    Let's be honest, "visiting" a place doesn't actually give you insight into its ins and outs, especially not on a complex issue such as the one we're talking about here.

    Europe is relatively low on the gun incident scale compared to the US, but also remember that in the last 105 years we had more than a couple wars here that put US bodycounts to shame. Which one of us is "better"?
    Absolutely agree Lief.

    And yes pesadelo, I've been to Europe a few times. Scotland (Edinburgh, Glasgow and more), Northern Ireland (Belfast), England (London) and Poland (Warsaw and Krakow) so far.

    Will be in Germany later this year. In Rome likely next year.

    I would say you get the flavor of a place as a visiting tourist, but definitely not the full accounting of it, and definitely not any real feeling for things like everyday crime when you're an average tourist.
    Last edited by Alistair; January 11 2018 at 02:33:58 PM.


  11. #11331
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    Overall America's gun problem should be fairly low down the list of priorities when it comes to improving life for Americans. There are far more pressing issues with easier fixes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  12. #11332
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    But hey it's a spectacular issue that we makes tragic news headlines that we love frothing about. Not as if this thread is gonna change anything about the US gun culture. So let's not be dicks to each other about it, eh?
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  13. #11333
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    America has culturally embraced gun violence as a way to resolve problems. Not tacitly, of course, but subtly. John Wayne. Gunfight at the OK Corral. Gangster Rap. All of it contributes to a culture that, when societal pressure gets out of hand for the individual, the individual grabs a gun a goes down in a blaze of glory. Couple this with the massive availability of guns, and you see the problem. The other face of this is that 99.999(...)% of law abiding Americans who enjoy guns do so in a safe, educated and responsible manner. Also, as with most patriarchal societies. there is no socially acceptable outlet to these pressures as a male. It's not "tough".

    It's not like any other countries do much better, tbh. The Afrikaans in SA have a predilection for family murder/suicides, where Pa loses his job and shoots his whole family then himself. British males disappear into the pub and irrelevance. It's just the US has a lot more people and a lot more guns.

    I'm mostly OK with people enjoying shooting. We need to get a way better handle on mental health, enforced training for a gun purchase, including psych evaluation, and absolutely no law circumventing bullshit like bump stocks.

    Oh, and the gun industry lobby, the NRA, they can eat a whole bag of syphilitic dicks. They aren't about peoples rights. You are being lied to by industry shills protecting profits.
    Last edited by erichkknaar; January 11 2018 at 03:30:56 PM.
    meh

  14. #11334
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    You are being lied to by industry shills protecting profits.
    Should just plaster this on billboards around the western world tbh
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  15. #11335
    pesadelo's Avatar
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    I am not trying to say bad things about USA or making this a Dick measuring contest vs EU , because God knows EU got some very violent times even on the 60 an 70 /80 , but it seems to me Americans having acess and availability to guns is part of the problem for them as a society .

    There are ample sucessfull stories from across the world in this but I guess their constitution law , but I think that making it harder to buy semi automatic etc guns without a small control will be a bigger problem down the line.

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  16. #11336
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    Quote Originally Posted by pesadelo View Post
    I am not trying to say bad things about USA or making this a Dick measuring contest vs EU , because God knows EU got some very violent times even on the 60 an 70 /80 , but it seems to me Americans having acess and availability to guns is part of the problem for them as a society .

    There are ample sucessfull stories from across the world in this but I guess their constitution law , but I think that making it harder to buy semi automatic etc guns without a small control will be a bigger problem down the line.

    Enviado do meu SM-G900F através do Tapatalk
    Non-Americans often take a "duh, just change the Constitution" or "duh, just ignore the Constitution and ban um' anyway" tact. Unfortunately, neither is a real world solution given the current makeup of the U.S. electorate.

    Regulation, the way rights are usually limited without Constitutional issues, is the better tactic. You can limit rights and still be ok. But again, the American electorate lacks the support to make that happen. People can cite as many "98% of Americans want gun control" polls they like, but they're bullshit. People who elect Republicans are electing people who will not legislate gun control, and their actions speak vastly louder than any words in an anonymous poll. We have alot of regulation as is (ignore the uninformed who claim there is no regulation in the US, be assured, there is) but it's poorly administered, poorly enforced and poorly designed and doesn't do or go far enough. For any regulation to actually work it must be enforced hard, administered efficiently and well (to both the administrator and citizen), and go far enough to achieve the real purpose. All do respect, changing the law from 10 rounds to 9 rounds is not real change, and that's all we seem capable of here these days. Meaningless "for show" changes.

    And yes, Erich is at least partially right. American culture is deeply entrenched in the gun. It's a core of the American Ego fantasy, and part of the American creation myth. It's splattered all over our entertainment in nearly every form, films, games, music. It's culturally a massive piece of southern culture, Texan culture, Northern Rural Borders culture (Montana and the like) and more. Americans clearly accept (if they admit it or not) some level of gun violence and risk for the right to gun culture and access here.

    At the end of the day, the electorate would have to make this a major issue and push it as a mandate, not just on progressive Democrats, but on Republicans too. A vote against gun control would have to be a risk to an elected official regardless of party, today that's simply not the case.

    And, like it or not, but 15,000 (est.) suicides/year and 10,000 (est.) gun homicides a year may be alot, and the mass shootings alot of attention, but in a country of 350,000,000 people, it's not enough, or touches enough, to really garner the attention it likely warrants. For all the violence, most Americans have never in their lives known a gun suicide or a gun murder victim. It's easy for many to depersonalize, to dismiss the issue as one of "other folks problems" and the like. Overcoming that would be vital for legislative change.

    I said earlier what I'd do (a few pages back now) and I stand by it. Guns are a tool, and those who of sound mind and proper training wish to use that tool for peaceful purposes should have access to those tool in pure civilian/tool form. If we could convince foks of just that, we'd be WAY ahead. I ave my doubts it'll happen in my lifetime.
    Last edited by Alistair; January 11 2018 at 04:21:41 PM.


  17. #11337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pesadelo View Post
    Alister did you ever visited Europe ?

    Enviado do meu SM-G900F através do Tapatalk
    Let's be honest, "visiting" a place doesn't actually give you insight into its ins and outs, especially not on a complex issue such as the one we're talking about here.

    Europe is relatively low on the gun incident scale compared to the US, but also remember that in the last 105 years we had more than a couple wars here that put US bodycounts to shame. Which one of us is "better"?
    Absolutely agree Lief.

    And yes pesadelo, I've been to Europe a few times. Scotland (Edinburgh, Glasgow and more), Northern Ireland (Belfast), England (London) and Poland (Warsaw and Krakow) so far.

    Will be in Germany later this year. In Rome likely next year.

    I would say you get the flavor of a place as a visiting tourist, but definitely not the full accounting of it, and definitely not any real feeling for things like everyday crime when you're an average tourist.
    Iam not trying to say it is a good measuring being and visiting a country but you do get a feel about the people and the country, even when I went to Miami (fairly safe city) I felt really safe but at night street full of homeless and police everywhere ..Then you open the news and it's all murder ,killing and stabbing I know it is a bit propaganda but dam, don't get me wrong I loved Miami city but I would never live in the suburbs and people were telling me this was a fairly safe metropolitan area.

    Then went to SA and some more African country's and the only one I felt unsafe was in SA and I was in the tourists spots.

    That is why I love traveling to know people and to know their culture but damm us European are really spoiled in a good way.

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  18. #11338
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pesadelo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pesadelo View Post
    Alister did you ever visited Europe ?

    Enviado do meu SM-G900F através do Tapatalk
    Let's be honest, "visiting" a place doesn't actually give you insight into its ins and outs, especially not on a complex issue such as the one we're talking about here.

    Europe is relatively low on the gun incident scale compared to the US, but also remember that in the last 105 years we had more than a couple wars here that put US bodycounts to shame. Which one of us is "better"?
    Absolutely agree Lief.

    And yes pesadelo, I've been to Europe a few times. Scotland (Edinburgh, Glasgow and more), Northern Ireland (Belfast), England (London) and Poland (Warsaw and Krakow) so far.

    Will be in Germany later this year. In Rome likely next year.

    I would say you get the flavor of a place as a visiting tourist, but definitely not the full accounting of it, and definitely not any real feeling for things like everyday crime when you're an average tourist.
    Iam not trying to say it is a good measuring being and visiting a country but you do get a feel about the people and the country, even when I went to Miami (fairly safe city) I felt really safe but at night street full of homeless and police everywhere ..Then you open the news and it's all murder ,killing and stabbing I know it is a bit propaganda but dam, don't get me wrong I loved Miami city but I would never live in the suburbs and people were telling me this was a fairly safe metropolitan area.

    Then went to SA and some more African country's and the only one I felt unsafe was in SA and I was in the tourists spots.

    That is why I love traveling to know people and to know their culture but damm us European are really spoiled in a good way.

    Enviado do meu SM-G900F através do Tapatalk
    I love travel too. It's a passion, one I can finally enjoy. Hence why I'll be seeing alot of Europe in the next few decades!

    As for feeling safe, thats suck an individual thing. I've lived in New York and Washington DC, not exactly cities free of crime but I never felt terribly unsafe. I've only had a handgun flashed at me in anger once, lol!


  19. #11339
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    It can't be stressed enough how much the myth of the creation of America is centered around the gun.

    It's not just the old West. It was already there with "the gunshot heard around the world," the opening shot of the Battle of Lexington in 1775. It took until the 20th century to incorporate the last states. The Wild West existed until the Oklahoma Land Run of 1889 and the Massacre at Wounded Knee in 1890. As a quick reminder, that's the same year as the German Social Democrat party being founded, the Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde was published, Colonel Sanders, Eisenhower and Molotov were born.
    So not too long ago (in the grand scheme of things) carrying a gun was seen as a necessity by Americans.

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  20. #11340
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    It can't be stressed enough how much the myth of the creation of America is centered around the gun.

    It's not just the old West. It was already there with "the gunshot heard around the world," the opening shot of the Battle of Lexington in 1775. It took until the 20th century to incorporate the last states. The Wild West existed until the Oklahoma Land Run of 1889 and the Massacre at Wounded Knee in 1890. As a quick reminder, that's the same year as the German Social Democrat party being founded, the Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde was published, Colonel Sanders, Eisenhower and Molotov were born.
    So not too long ago (in the grand scheme of things) carrying a gun was seen as a necessity by Americans.

    Tapapapatalk
    Yep. Americans have two core mythologies.

    1. Freedom means shooting the Tyrant Government if they do anything you don't like.

    2. Only the Gun can provide Freedom, see above.


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