hate these ads?, log in or register to hide them
Page 310 of 311 FirstFirst ... 210260300307308309310311 LastLast
Results 6,181 to 6,200 of 6217

Thread: Wargaming/Painting/Modelling

  1. #6181
    mewninn's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    1,979
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Golden Daemon, Crystal Brush and similar competitions are the 'top level' of the painting aspect of the hobby. Pretty much every major tournament has a 'best painted' category.

    Why is it unreasonable to desire an aspect of the hobby that is just about gameplay?

    I don't paint, I just play. And apparently I'm a lesser member of the community because of it. Despite the fact I'm probably more active in promoting the community than someone who paints on their own, for their own pleasure. That's the message I get from 'painting requirements for tournaments'.
    yeah, you are a lesser member of the community. that's your choice, doesn't actually matter.
    If you want explanations for why people think tabletop is still populated by insufferable neckbeards, here's Exhibit A

  2. #6182
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    12,202
    I have some painted lists, and I have lists that are coming together that aren't painted. At any time, I do a lot of playing with figured in various states of paint, just due to shifting meta and list tweaking. To me, the game is the point.\ of the hobby. If I get good enough to feel like I should go try compete at Masters, I'll paint my lists for those events. The dudes I theory craft with down the local game store are exactly the same (and some of them have legit won a few high end tourneys). The goal is painting, but, at least in WHM, the game is still the point, and you tend to tweak lists a LOT more than in 40k or whatever.
    meh

  3. #6183
    DevilDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    3,794
    I'm of two minds here, on the one hand I paint to a high standard, I play space wolves (in part) specifically because they give me a fuckton of customization options and interesting bits to paint, even the average troops choice models I field take hours to paint individually, a 2k army represents months of work. In that regard, I like that tournaments, especially prize tourneys enforce some level of at least minimum effort on painting. In terms of official tournaments I don't think that it's gatekeeping at all, remember that those tourney's are basically advertising events, and if you're on the field your competing for what is essentially a small bit of GW's or some other sponsor's marketing dollars, they have every right to want to get their money's worth.

    That said, I do feel that asking some kid or new player to compete with me in painting isn't fair, I've been painting various miniatures (ral partha, GW, battletech, etc.) for over 20 years now, my experience rivals any professional painter and though I rarely bother to paint up to the kind of standards you see in painting competitions I can if I want to, and my general standard is above and beyond that leftmost shot.

    IMO, in local leagues, shop tourneys, and feeder tournaments, painting standards shouldn't be a thing, those of for the general player base and it's where you cut your teeth and test out shit before it's ready for prime time. But once you get to the higher level prize tournaments, which are funded by the marketing budgets of the companies that make the products, you shouldn't complain about being held to a higher standard. Hell that minimum standard they showed isn't even hard, I could paint a hundred models to that standard in a day, literally anyone could, I was better than that at 11 years old. maybe some just don't have the talent or patience to exceed that, but that middle ground is a low fucking bar when they're offering to cut you a check if you win the game.

  4. #6184
    Donor Shiodome's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    I am a white male.
    Posts
    5,220
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Golden Daemon, Crystal Brush and similar competitions are the 'top level' of the painting aspect of the hobby. Pretty much every major tournament has a 'best painted' category.

    Why is it unreasonable to desire an aspect of the hobby that is just about gameplay?

    I don't paint, I just play. And apparently I'm a lesser member of the community because of it. Despite the fact I'm probably more active in promoting the community than someone who paints on their own, for their own pleasure. That's the message I get from 'painting requirements for tournaments'.
    yeah, you are a lesser member of the community. that's your choice, doesn't actually matter.
    If you want explanations for why people think tabletop is still populated by insufferable neckbeards, here's Exhibit A
    I don't play any tabletop games. i also don't take up hobbies with established norms and then complain about everyone not adapting to me.

  5. #6185

    Join Date
    July 14, 2013
    Posts
    1,844
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Golden Daemon, Crystal Brush and similar competitions are the 'top level' of the painting aspect of the hobby. Pretty much every major tournament has a 'best painted' category.

    Why is it unreasonable to desire an aspect of the hobby that is just about gameplay?

    I don't paint, I just play. And apparently I'm a lesser member of the community because of it. Despite the fact I'm probably more active in promoting the community than someone who paints on their own, for their own pleasure. That's the message I get from 'painting requirements for tournaments'.
    yeah, you are a lesser member of the community. that's your choice, doesn't actually matter.
    If you want explanations for why people think tabletop is still populated by insufferable neckbeards, here's Exhibit A
    I don't play any tabletop games. i also don't take up hobbies with established norms and then complain about everyone not adapting to me.
    But the established norm for decades has been "painted with 3 colors." It's good enough for the tabletop, it's good enough for pictures taken at a distance.

    GW is now trying to push that norm significantly higher. Their "minimum" example is a solid step up from the old "3 colors" standard, and they're saying they want every single model to be picture worthy.

    For people who enjoy painting more than playing, that's fine, but for a good chunk of their player base, that's a good deal more time than they want to dedicate to every single dude.

    Their new standard for "fully painted" is literally on par with some of my very best, most time-consuming paint jobs, the kind that I reserve for cool or important models.
    Totally not Victoria Stecker forgetting his password and not having access to his work email.

  6. #6186
    mewninn's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    1,979
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Golden Daemon, Crystal Brush and similar competitions are the 'top level' of the painting aspect of the hobby. Pretty much every major tournament has a 'best painted' category.

    Why is it unreasonable to desire an aspect of the hobby that is just about gameplay?

    I don't paint, I just play. And apparently I'm a lesser member of the community because of it. Despite the fact I'm probably more active in promoting the community than someone who paints on their own, for their own pleasure. That's the message I get from 'painting requirements for tournaments'.
    yeah, you are a lesser member of the community. that's your choice, doesn't actually matter.
    If you want explanations for why people think tabletop is still populated by insufferable neckbeards, here's Exhibit A
    I don't play any tabletop games. i also don't take up hobbies with established norms and then complain about everyone not adapting to me.
    Oh shut the fuck up.

    I can barely paint up to the middle standard as it is because of a nasty hand injury I got about 10 years ago.

    There's worse off people who would also like to play, but there's always this fucking posturing about who shouldnt play the hobby
    Last edited by mewninn; January 29 2019 at 04:46:17 AM.

  7. #6187
    Kai's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 2, 2012
    Posts
    6,950
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Golden Daemon, Crystal Brush and similar competitions are the 'top level' of the painting aspect of the hobby. Pretty much every major tournament has a 'best painted' category.

    Why is it unreasonable to desire an aspect of the hobby that is just about gameplay?

    I don't paint, I just play. And apparently I'm a lesser member of the community because of it. Despite the fact I'm probably more active in promoting the community than someone who paints on their own, for their own pleasure. That's the message I get from 'painting requirements for tournaments'.
    yeah, you are a lesser member of the community. that's your choice, doesn't actually matter.
    If you want explanations for why people think tabletop is still populated by insufferable neckbeards, here's Exhibit A
    I don't play any tabletop games. i also don't take up hobbies with established norms and then complain about everyone not adapting to me.
    Nor do I. That's why I don't play any GW game competitively, and do nothing to grow their community. Instead I play a game where the established norm is "painted is desirable but not necessary", "proxying is legal, just make certain it's with another Corvus Belli miniature and it's clear to your opponent".

    I probably will get my army commission painted: not because I need to, but because I want to.

    It was funny talking to my community about this thread. Even from people who steadfastly refused to play anything other than fully painted (idgi, but power to them) the response was universally: "wtf, all that does is push people away."

    GW's norms might be long standing, but that doesn't make them healthy.

  8. #6188
    Movember '11 Ginger Excellence Movember 2011Movember 2012 sarabando's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    Basingstoke England
    Posts
    2,715
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Golden Daemon, Crystal Brush and similar competitions are the 'top level' of the painting aspect of the hobby. Pretty much every major tournament has a 'best painted' category.

    Why is it unreasonable to desire an aspect of the hobby that is just about gameplay?

    I don't paint, I just play. And apparently I'm a lesser member of the community because of it. Despite the fact I'm probably more active in promoting the community than someone who paints on their own, for their own pleasure. That's the message I get from 'painting requirements for tournaments'.
    yeah, you are a lesser member of the community. that's your choice, doesn't actually matter.
    If you want explanations for why people think tabletop is still populated by insufferable neckbeards, here's Exhibit A
    I don't play any tabletop games. i also don't take up hobbies with established norms and then complain about everyone not adapting to me.
    Oh shut the fuck up.

    I can barely paint up to the middle standard as it is because of a nasty hand injury I got about 10 years ago.

    There's worse off people who would also like to play, but there's always this fucking posturing about who shouldnt play the hobby
    And one of the perry twins lost his hand but still learnt to sculpt with his other one so git gud :P
    An acceptable paint job is not hard especially with the colored spray cans GW does these days.

  9. #6189
    Donor Shiodome's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    I am a white male.
    Posts
    5,220
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Golden Daemon, Crystal Brush and similar competitions are the 'top level' of the painting aspect of the hobby. Pretty much every major tournament has a 'best painted' category.

    Why is it unreasonable to desire an aspect of the hobby that is just about gameplay?

    I don't paint, I just play. And apparently I'm a lesser member of the community because of it. Despite the fact I'm probably more active in promoting the community than someone who paints on their own, for their own pleasure. That's the message I get from 'painting requirements for tournaments'.
    yeah, you are a lesser member of the community. that's your choice, doesn't actually matter.
    If you want explanations for why people think tabletop is still populated by insufferable neckbeards, here's Exhibit A
    I don't play any tabletop games. i also don't take up hobbies with established norms and then complain about everyone not adapting to me.
    Oh shut the fuck up.

    I can barely paint up to the middle standard as it is because of a nasty hand injury I got about 10 years ago.

    There's worse off people who would also like to play, but there's always this fucking posturing about who shouldnt play the hobby
    there's all kinds of reasons people can't get an army sorted, my best mate had a similar situation to you (for him resulted in very shaky hands, so not even Perry twin dedication will fix that). i didn't make the case he shouldn't game, and i don't make that case with you either. I'm saying that you shouldn't get mad if people aren't always happy playing against unpainted armies, it's not the rest of the worlds job to cater to you. When I gamed I had a preference for a game with 2 awesome looking armies, playing against an unpainted army decreased the experienced for me. I still played the game though, and didn't give people shit about it, It's still just toy soldiers and doesn't actually matter.

  10. #6190
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    12,202
    Just a handy reminder that zenithal priming and glazes takes next to no effort and delivers solid tabletop ready figures, no matter what some artificial standard designed (I'm sure) to sell paint and decals says.

    Take it a step further with sketch in values.

    http://www.contrastminiatures.com/le...etch-in-value/
    meh

  11. #6191
    DevilDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    3,794
    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Golden Daemon, Crystal Brush and similar competitions are the 'top level' of the painting aspect of the hobby. Pretty much every major tournament has a 'best painted' category.

    Why is it unreasonable to desire an aspect of the hobby that is just about gameplay?

    I don't paint, I just play. And apparently I'm a lesser member of the community because of it. Despite the fact I'm probably more active in promoting the community than someone who paints on their own, for their own pleasure. That's the message I get from 'painting requirements for tournaments'.
    yeah, you are a lesser member of the community. that's your choice, doesn't actually matter.
    If you want explanations for why people think tabletop is still populated by insufferable neckbeards, here's Exhibit A
    I don't play any tabletop games. i also don't take up hobbies with established norms and then complain about everyone not adapting to me.
    Nor do I. That's why I don't play any GW game competitively, and do nothing to grow their community. Instead I play a game where the established norm is "painted is desirable but not necessary", "proxying is legal, just make certain it's with another Corvus Belli miniature and it's clear to your opponent".

    I probably will get my army commission painted: not because I need to, but because I want to.

    It was funny talking to my community about this thread. Even from people who steadfastly refused to play anything other than fully painted (idgi, but power to them) the response was universally: "wtf, all that does is push people away."

    GW's norms might be long standing, but that doesn't make them healthy.
    I don't think GW needs to worry as much about driving people away, really they're as much a cultural phenomenon as a games company now and what they care about is image more than inclusivity. My earlier point is relevant here, GW is only pushing this for their headliner events, which are probably loss leaders for them, they want their money's worth on thos marketing dollars and that's fine, what they're not doing is trying to lean on the local stuff, they know better than that. IMO most people don't even play in the tournaments this effects, so I don't see it as that big a deal, and if you do then you're playing for money and you can't really complain if there are higher requirements for entry.

  12. #6192
    Nobody_Holme's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Location
    Nyet
    Posts
    5,759
    In reality, this is a longstanding thing we're bitching about. They also dont actually apply it for casual tournaments they run very harshly. If you have 0% painted, GTFO. If you're clearly at least trying? Have some tips from this expert who's actually chill and a trip to the paint sales.
    (Also, look over here at what you can do with practice, because that shit is cool).

    GW are still slowly dying as they alienate people over time like they always have been, same as EA in videogames. Doesnt seem to affect their sales enough for them to care yet in either case.

  13. #6193
    Kai's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 2, 2012
    Posts
    6,950
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiodome View Post
    , it's not the rest of the worlds job to cater to you.
    I appreciate the irony.

    I get the "from GW's POV it's a marketing thing", sure that's fine. But why as wargamers do we support or excuse that?

    And I don't buy the "it's only at the highest level that the letter of this rule is applied" as a counter argument. This sets a standard that to one degree or another is proliferated. "Less harsh" approaches apply "3 colours" rather than the "meh" standard, or allow you to play "so long as you seem to be trying". From my POV those are still fucking harsh, because I have no interest in trying.

    The community standard should be "so long as you're supporting the company that sells the game, and I can tell what's what I don't care". Everything other than that creates barriers for entry.

  14. #6194
    Varcaus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 15, 2011
    Posts
    20,768
    GW sellers of paint say you should paint more models. :thonk:

  15. #6195
    DevilDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    3,794
    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    I get the "from GW's POV it's a marketing thing", sure that's fine. But why as wargamers do we support or excuse that?

    And I don't buy the "it's only at the highest level that the letter of this rule is applied" as a counter argument. This sets a standard that to one degree or another is proliferated. "Less harsh" approaches apply "3 colours" rather than the "meh" standard, or allow you to play "so long as you seem to be trying". From my POV those are still fucking harsh, because I have no interest in trying.

    The community standard should be "so long as you're supporting the company that sells the game, and I can tell what's what I don't care". Everything other than that creates barriers for entry.
    we don't 'put up with it' anymore than we 'put up' with the exorbitant prices of the models. It just is, and we either participate or we don't. And people have been talking about this since second edition as far as I remember. My stance is that if they're going to rent out a fucking convention center and offer a multi thousand dollar purse for the tournament winner they can put whatever caveats they like.

    Don't like it? Put together your own convention and tell people to bring unpainted armies. You'll probably get yelled at just as loud as you're yelling about GW, because a big group of us LIKE painted armies, we like showing them off, we like seeing other people's effort on the table, we like trading tips, to probably a majority of people in the hobby the painting is PART OF THE HOBBY, hell I got into it for the painting not the gameplay, 2nd ed was a fucking mess.

    IMO I'll take to the field against anyone, but seeing someone else who put just as much effort as I did into making their army look epic is awesome and I like admiring the skill of others and having my work admired in turn.

    Also, the painting rules mean that metagaming flavor of the month tools have to at least pay a toll for their asshattery.

  16. #6196

    Join Date
    November 5, 2011
    Posts
    11,942
    Lol. So many excuses to be a dick to others.

    God you have a shitty ass community if this is how you treat people regularly.

  17. #6197

    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    349
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    Lol. So many excuses to be a dick to others.

    God you have a shitty ass community if this is how you treat people regularly.
    There’s some irony.


    Here is my take:

    If I’m playing a pickup game, whatever. Go ahead and proxy stuff, too. As long as you aren’t an ass or WAAC, it’s all good.

    Tourney is a bit different. Like everyone else, I’ve paid an entry fee and committed to playing all day. I’ve put effort into making my army look good, and I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect my opponents to put basic effort into getting their stuff painted. While playing against an unpainted army for 2 hours doesn’t ruin the experience, it does detract from the enjoyment. It is a bit disappointing, and it is going to be disappointing for the other players who face that army.

    Now, GW’s new requirements are a harsh IMO, but I’ve always looked at their tourneys as the premier league and don’t really feel any desire to ever play in them. Same goes for xwing worlds or similar.

  18. #6198
    DevilDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    3,794
    Quote Originally Posted by Ort Lofthus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    Lol. So many excuses to be a dick to others.

    God you have a shitty ass community if this is how you treat people regularly.
    There’s some irony.


    Here is my take:

    If I’m playing a pickup game, whatever. Go ahead and proxy stuff, too. As long as you aren’t an ass or WAAC, it’s all good.

    Tourney is a bit different. Like everyone else, I’ve paid an entry fee and committed to playing all day. I’ve put effort into making my army look good, and I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect my opponents to put basic effort into getting their stuff painted. While playing against an unpainted army for 2 hours doesn’t ruin the experience, it does detract from the enjoyment. It is a bit disappointing, and it is going to be disappointing for the other players who face that army.

    Now, GW’s new requirements are a harsh IMO, but I’ve always looked at their tourneys as the premier league and don’t really feel any desire to ever play in them. Same goes for xwing worlds or similar.
    pretty much how I feel, I don't mind proxying and semi painted armies in a pickup game, and local leagues as long as someone is obviously trying, but if I'm in a tourney and I paid an admission fee I feel like minimum standards are the least you can expect. And like I said painting to three color standard is not hard no matter who you are.

  19. #6199
    Dorvil Barranis's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 18, 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,240
    Well, 40K is kinda a crappy game without cool painted models to look at.
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  20. #6200

    Join Date
    December 20, 2013
    Posts
    588
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    Well, 40K is kinda a crappy game without cool painted models to look at.
    Lol.

    I've never played 40k, so I can't speak to that community. For Warmachine and Infinity, I've never seen a tourney that required paint to any degree, though most would have a best painted award. The only exception I can think of was maybe WM Masters at GenCon or something - biggest tourney of the year and organized/run by PP themselves.

    Locally (within ~300km) everyone is super laid back about painting, and almost always about proxies too. (By the by, WYSIWYG Infinity doesn't exist IMHO, other than OC converters.) Painted armies are greeted usually with admiration, but I've never seen anyone have an issue with an unpainted army, tourney or no.

    For my perspective - I do find it more fun playing against a painted army, because I like admiring paint jobs. But I would never have second thoughts about playing someone without paint, nor would I comment about it. Unless it was a friend of mine I wanted to tease.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •