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Thread: Jihadist Caliphate LLC. Extremist Thunderdome's everywhere.

  1. #20721
    Keckers's Avatar
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    The balloons are there to lure Palestinian children into killzones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  2. #20722
    Dorvil Barranis's Avatar
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    If it finds a light enough bomb, it attaches it to the helium balloons so it can detonate safely in the air.
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  3. #20723
    thebomby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Fun fact, the rise of islamism happened because the USA helped crush the Arab socialist movements in the cold war
    How many people in the ME would have died in the purges?
    It's much more complicated than that. The muslim world was slowly modernising itself in the 60s and early 70s (see the photos below from kabul, tehran and cairo) and had nationalist and socialist ideals. That was, however mostly confined to the cities. The countrysides were as backward then as they are now. Why that all fell apart is, IMO partly due to cold war politics, partly due to economic mismanagement, partly because of oil money and partly because idealism very often tends to fall beneath the wheels of reality.

    There have probably been many books written on the modern history of the middle east and the muslim world in general, but broken down I'd say the following were major deciders in what has become of the place.
    - The socialist and modernisation ideals were mainly confined to the cities. Nearly all of those countries never gave much thought to the poor rural peasants who made up most of their population. That there was bound to be conservative indignation and resistance to modernisation was pre-programmed.
    - Having no tradition of popular participation in government, most of the governments were run by strongmen. Nasser in Egypt, Assad in Syria, Daoud in Afghanistan, the Shah in Iran. Most of them were more interest in maintaining power than in any real social change. Unsurprisingly, this lead to resentment, often by the very people who were keen to modernise.
    - A key factor was the fact that the Arab world lost every war against Israel, which led to humiliation of their leaders and an attendant lower of their power internally.
    - Soon after WWII, the Soviets and the West were jockeying for influence in the muslim world. Interestingly, both the USSR and the USA were among the first two powers to recognise Israel in 1948, the Soviets because the Israelis had a heavy socialist vibe going on with Kibbutz's etc, the Americans because of the Jewish electorate and the holocaust. That fell apart before and during the 1956 war, which entrenched the Soviets on the Arab side and the Americans on the Israeli side. The Americans and the British staged a coup against the nationalist Mossadeq government who wanted to nationalise the oil fields, the Americans supported the Indonesian coup of Suharto in which around 500'000 communist sympathisers were killed. The Soviets supported the socialist coup on south Yemen and, as every knows, invaded Afghanistan to support their tyrannical puppet Najibullah.
    - The Saudis, having astronomical amounts of cash and a heavy hand on their own country, started spreading muslim revolution in the 70s by way of Wahhabism. The Mujahideen in Afghanistan, Pakistan's Zia Ul Haq's use of religion to stay in power, the muslim brotherhood in Egypt etc, all owe much in the way of support to the Saudi governments tacit support for their cause (when it suited the Saudis, that is).
    - It's not a hard rule, though, because it was popular revolution by the conservatives and the communists in the face of extreme repression by the state that brought Khomeini in power into 1978. The Ayatollahs' first thing they did after executing all the regimes supporters was to then execute all the communists. And Assad and Hussein stayed in power in Iraq and Syria through the sheer brutality of their oppression (along with support from the west for Iraq after 1978).
    - The void left by the end of the cold war and the resulting vacuum into which Al Qaida flowed after the Gulf War is well known, as is the heavy handed American and western response to 9/11 and the resultant chaos and bloodshed which has plagued the middle east. How much of the Arab Spring goes back to Obama's policies is an open question.

    I suspect that in the long run, the middle east will slowly swing back towards a more moderate state of affairs, but given how countries like Yemen and Somalia have managed to remain absolutely ungovernable for over 25 years with Libya being a more recent example, it might also happen that the most of the region will eventually fall apart.

    Old school wimmens from yesteryear in the muslim world
    Kabul, 1960s



    Cairo, 1978



    Tehran, 1960s

    Будь смиренным, будь кротким, не заботься о тленном
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  4. #20724
    Movember 2012 Elriche Oshego's Avatar
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    *Swiss Dabbing intensifies*

  5. #20725
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    Sometimes there are good posts on this forum, that was one of them

  6. #20726
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    Between finishing school in 1984 and starting Uni in 1985 I spent 4 months travelling across northern Africa. That included the Sudan and Ethiopia. I spent the longest time in Egypt - 1 1/2 months - and for a part of that wound up staying with a very welcoming Egyptian family.

    I had previously visited Egypt on a family holiday in around the time of Camp David. Back then both Sadat and the Shah were in power and seemingly loved (I saw them both in Aswan). Peace was happening with Israel. The people of Cairo seemed by 1970s Australian standards modern in dress and outlooked. To a kid everything seemed fine.


    In 1984 Sadat had been assassinated and the Shah deposed. The family I stayed with was upper-middle class, father a lecturer at Cairo University, mother a teacher, but everyone seemed far more religious. I was regularly asked what religion I was, and although an Atheist it was prudent to say Christian and go to church on Sunday. The Muslim Brotherhood, who had staged violent protests in 1979 and was behind assassinating Sadat already controlled the slums. There wasn't the modern-day style suicide bomber and beheading type terrorism, but you did risk being kidnapped if you went to the wrong places.


    The trouble is that the modernism was a veneer, a thin layer of progress imposed by dictators over the top of a poor and conservative mass. As a westerner you only saw those who were trying to live like the west, a small middleclass. Outside of that it was still people living as they always had, farming and herding livestock, and going to prayers multiple times a day.


    And the population was exploding. Compared to Australia kids were everywhere. The family I stayed with had five, but traditional multiple wife households had far more. The population was very young, and the young were getting increasingly frustrated about the future that awaited them.

    What I am trying to say is that all the 1960s and 1970s pictures were of an abnormal time, a period of strongmen dictators propped up by the Cold War. Underneath the societies hadn't changed, hadn't had time to change. Like everywhere else the rural poor were flooding into the cities, bring a far more conservative outlook with them.

    Same thing seems to have happened to Turkey, so democracy isn't the solution either. Demographics baby.
    Last edited by Maximillian; January 8 2019 at 02:27:09 AM.

  7. #20727

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Between finishing school in 1984 and starting Uni in 1985 I spent 4 months travelling across northern Africa. That included the Sudan and Ethiopia. I spent the longest time in Egypt - 1 1/2 months - and for a part of that wound up staying with a very welcoming Egyptian family.

    I had previously visited Egypt on a family holiday in around the time of Camp David. Back then both Sadat and the Shah were in power and seemingly loved (I saw them both in Aswan). Peace was happening with Israel. The people of Cairo seemed by 1970s Australian standards modern in dress and outlooked. To a kid everything seemed fine.


    In 1984 Sadat had been assassinated and the Shah deposed. The family I stayed with was upper-middle class, father a lecturer at Cairo University, mother a teacher, but everyone seemed far more religious. I was regularly asked what religion I was, and although an Atheist it was prudent to say Christian and go to church on Sunday. The Muslim Brotherhood, who had staged violent protests in 1979 and was behind assassinating Sadat already controlled the slums. There wasn't the modern-day style suicide bomber and beheading type terrorism, but you did risk being kidnapped if you went to the wrong places.


    The trouble is that the modernism was a veneer, a thin layer of progress imposed by dictators over the top of a poor and conservative mass. As a westerner you only saw those who were trying to live like the west, a small middleclass. Outside of that it was still people living as they always had, farming and herding livestock, and going to prayers multiple times a day.


    And the population was exploding. Compared to Australia kids were everywhere. The family I stayed with had five, but traditional multiple wife households had far more. The population was very young, and the young were getting increasingly frustrated about the future that awaited them.

    What I am trying to say is that all the 1960s and 1970s pictures were of an abnormal time, a period of strongmen dictators propped up by the Cold War. Underneath the societies hadn't changed, hadn't had time to change. Like everywhere else the rural poor were flooding into the cities, bring a far more conservative outlook with them.

    Same thing seems to have happened to Turkey, so democracy isn't the solution either. Demographics baby.
    So, what you're saying is that neo-liberal colonialist Obama/Clinton policies are to blame.

    Got it.

  8. #20728
    evil edna's Avatar
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    Kill the poor

  9. #20729
    Sandzibar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    Kill the poor
    Kill the poor and the rich. Job done.

  10. #20730
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandzibar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    Kill the poor
    Kill the poor and the rich. Job done.
    Tombworld when?
    meh

  11. #20731
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    The 1960 to 1970 were not so much an abnormal time. What was 'abnormal', arguably, is that the process was halted so abruptly. Even thought the reasons why it was were, again, quite 'normal'.

    You'll find the dichotomy between 'conservative' rural opposed to 'progressive' urban environment throughout the world, and that includes the developed/affluent world.

    Just look at what is happening in the US with Trump, and with the UK with Brexit. It is just that in both countries 'progressive'/urban society has had more time to entrench, and is/was therefore more resistant to the widespread changes that took place in the ME.

    Also interesting/instructive, w.r.t. the developing world: India.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  12. #20732

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    I would have taough Kurds had enough fighting for a generation , but lets play Ninja


  13. #20733
    Donor Grendelfreak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Crush View Post
    I would have taough Kurds had enough fighting for a generation , but lets play Ninja

    Needs a Nasheed version of Kung Fu Fighting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by.

  14. #20734

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    Reuters reports on preliminary arrangements between the US and the Taliban, which the US has already notified the government of Afghanistan.
    According to the leak:

    1. The United States pledges to withdraw all troops from Afghanistan within 18 months, including military bases, deployed equipment, and related occupational infrastructure.
    2. The Taliban are committed to preventing the presence of ISIL and al-Qaida in the territory of Afghanistan and their attacks on the US and its allies in the region from the territory of Afghanistan.
    3. The Taliban will be guaranteed in the authorities, but whether the current government will be represented there until the question, as the Taliban do not agree with this and the bargaining continues on this issue (the Taliban demanded the issuance and execution of traitors before the negotiations, as well as public apologies to the Taliban and the people of Afghanistan by the accomplices of the interventionists).
    4. The topic of PMCs is left behind in silence - the agreement primarily discussed the withdrawal of the regular US and NATO troops (by NATO, by the way, there are no obligations, but it’s quite clear that if the United States leaves, then all the riffraff will leave after them).
    5. The Taliban should also give guarantees that the territory of Afghanistan will not be used for the actions of militants against Pakistan (this is one of the conditions of Pakistani intermediaries - the project of Greater Balochistan is closed).
      Spoiler:

  15. #20735
    walrus's Avatar
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    Losers.
      Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    But islamism IS a product of class warfare. Rich white countries come into developing brown dictatorships, wreck the leadership, infrastructure and economy and then act all surprised that religious fanaticism is on the rise.
    Also:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenta View Post
    walrus isnt a bad poster.
    Quote Originally Posted by cullnean View Post
    also i like walrus.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmaNutin View Post
    Yer a hoot

  16. #20736

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    So Obama got Bin Laden, while Trump surrendered to the Taliban.

  17. #20737
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    So Obama got Bin Laden, while Trump surrendered to the Taliban.
    TBF extrajudicial execution and dumping the body at sea shouldn't be celebrated. Dont care who it was, shoulda gone on trial.

  18. #20738
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    So Obama got Bin Laden, while Trump surrendered to the Taliban.
    TBF extrajudicial execution and dumping the body at sea shouldn't be celebrated. Dont care who it was, shoulda gone on trial.
    In the long list of people extra judicially killed by American forces I'm probably the least bothered by bin laden tbh.

    Even agreeing with the sentiment it wouldn't make the top 10 of 'bad' things done by the Obama administration.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  19. #20739
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    bin laden was their pet project so it's acceptable for them to also euthanize it

    saddam otoh wasn't

  20. #20740
    Duckslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    bin laden was their pet project so it's acceptable for them to also euthanize it

    saddam otoh wasn't
    Im sure thats exactly how they justified it tbh.

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