hate these ads?, log in or register to hide them
Page 2 of 11 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 201

Thread: [devpost] Wormhole twerking

  1. #21
    Marlona Sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    7,324
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzel View Post
    Straight off the top of my head this would make hole rolling very painful, as you'd have to have a whole fleet ready to defend your cap which is now 40km off the return WH. Then again maybe that's the point.

    Makes people with alts casually closing holes to run sites a suicidal proposition.
    I get the feeling that is entirely the point. In some ways unknown space is reflecting what we see in null. Only the big boys running around decimating anyone who is not part of them and I don't mean there being a small difference. I am talking about a massive scale between an invading force and those defending. I don't know if it is as bad as null, but from what I read it has a lot of similarities. Especially in the large groups who wear maximum risk aversion like it is some kind of honor badge.

    I really hope to see some rage rolling capitals get bent over hard core with this change.

  2. #22
    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    Native Freshfood
    Posts
    6,229
    Quote Originally Posted by Davion Falcon View Post
    What if the effect was reversed? Ie, carriers and dreads continue to spawn <5km. Smaller/lighter shit gets flung farther out?
    A massively better idea TBH.

  3. #23
    Donor Sponk's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    AU TZ
    Posts
    11,285
    If you jump in a small ship you'll end up on the wormhole. Only bigger ships will be further out.
    Contract stuff to Seraphina Amaranth.

    "You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say - of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position. Ever."


  4. #24
    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    Native Freshfood
    Posts
    6,229
    Quote Originally Posted by Sponk View Post
    If you jump in a small ship you'll end up on the wormhole. Only bigger ships will be further out.
    It's a suggestion, not a statement of fact. The meta-shakeup would be massively better if the two were reversed, little ships go way the hell away, while capitals spawn on the hole.

  5. #25

    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    3,034
    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sponk View Post
    If you jump in a small ship you'll end up on the wormhole. Only bigger ships will be further out.
    It's a suggestion, not a statement of fact. The meta-shakeup would be massively better if the two were reversed, little ships go way the hell away, while capitals spawn on the hole.
    average speed of a armor comp for smaller ships is around 700m/s i'd say, you'd be delaying hole rolling by about a minute max.

    Put the big boys our there, no mo' rolling.

  6. #26
    Donor
    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Location
    Wiltshire, UK
    Posts
    2,604
    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Davion Falcon View Post
    What if the effect was reversed? Ie, carriers and dreads continue to spawn <5km. Smaller/lighter shit gets flung farther out?
    A massively better idea TBH.
    Makes scouts/cloakies uncatchable though, and they're already difficult to catch as is.

    Being objective about it it's pretty weird how one guy + alts can roll holes at ease with impunity at the moment, whether that be Orcas or capitals. It's actually even easier the higher class of wormhole you go, which seems antithetical.

    Shaking up the meta and/or requiring people rolling holes to have defensive fleets ready isn't a terrible motivation for this change though.

  7. #27
    Davion Falcon's Avatar
    Join Date
    June 7, 2011
    Posts
    1,534
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Davion Falcon View Post
    What if the effect was reversed? Ie, carriers and dreads continue to spawn <5km. Smaller/lighter shit gets flung farther out?
    A massively better idea TBH.
    Makes scouts/cloakies uncatchable though, and they're already difficult to catch as is.

    Being objective about it it's pretty weird how one guy + alts can roll holes at ease with impunity at the moment, whether that be Orcas or capitals. It's actually even easier the higher class of wormhole you go, which seems antithetical.

    Shaking up the meta and/or requiring people rolling holes to have defensive fleets ready isn't a terrible motivation for this change though.
    If scouts/cloakies are nigh uncatchable, is that necessarily a deal breaker?

    F I'm not a wormhole resident.
    "We need less dakka dakka!" -No one. Ever.

  8. #28
    Movember 2011Donor Cue1*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    Native Freshfood
    Posts
    6,229
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cue1* View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Davion Falcon View Post
    What if the effect was reversed? Ie, carriers and dreads continue to spawn <5km. Smaller/lighter shit gets flung farther out?
    A massively better idea TBH.
    Makes scouts/cloakies uncatchable though, and they're already difficult to catch as is.

    Being objective about it it's pretty weird how one guy + alts can roll holes at ease with impunity at the moment, whether that be Orcas or capitals. It's actually even easier the higher class of wormhole you go, which seems antithetical.

    Shaking up the meta and/or requiring people rolling holes to have defensive fleets ready isn't a terrible motivation for this change though.
    The issue is that it won't shake up the meta. Most fights will still be armor brawl, since the subcaps will still appear close, meaning catching and holding down a support fleet that jumps into you will still be trivially easy. We will likely see more Guardians and less Archons(which I personally think is a bad thing) but otherwise no changes. If the objective is to change the meta, then subcaps should appear at more range. If the objective is to make hole rolling harder, then I think CCP should consider another direction for it, as all this does is punish the little guy, and benefit the big guys.

    A better direction for reducing hole rolling would be to give caps a polarity timer for a single direction jump.

  9. #29
    Donor
    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Location
    Wiltshire, UK
    Posts
    2,604
    Quote Originally Posted by Davion Falcon View Post
    If scouts/cloakies are nigh uncatchable, is that necessarily a deal breaker?

    F I'm not a wormhole resident.
    I suppose not, in the grand scheme of things, but those are the things you encounter most of the time.

    I'm actually broadly in favour of this proposed change for two reasons - it is far too trivial to roll holes with just alts, and if you roll into someone who has eyes they can trivially collapse you back out if they don't want to fight (yes I know cloaked capitals can be a counter). Also masses are so well known that rage-rolling is done without a care in the world whilst half asleep, which seems at odds with the concept of wormhole space.

    Secondly, having to have a proper fleet on standby instead of default T3 armour blob is not an onerous requirement.

    Thirdly (oops), I'm not even playing at the moment but I love me some delicious "sky is falling" schadenfreude.
    Last edited by Durzel; August 4 2014 at 01:35:45 AM.

  10. #30
    HEY LOOK AT ME I HAVE A TITAN LordsServant's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 3, 2011
    Location
    [VENIO]
    Posts
    4,639
    This was actually one of the bugs/sploits I found in conjunction with that BH on SiSi.

    He thought it was a bug like I did - we had no idea it was actually workingAsIntended(tm).

    As far as my (incredibly educated and somewhat relevent due to my eve situation) opinion goes - this is a GOOD change, but only if they slightly tweak what they have now.

    I am all for making it harder to bear in wspace, and I am all for making committing capitals a srsbsns thing (you have no idea how much I fucking hate shitlers who intentionally crit holes or shit with their caps, or park their fleet on a WH with a cap ready to disengage and collapse hole the second they start losing).

    What I am NOT for is punishing individuals for being ballsy and trying to commit caps to a WH.

    The range is good in my opinion - near the edge of triage rep range from the hole @ 0.

    One really important thing this mixes up in the meta is the typical jump into perfectly setup blapdreads optimal.

    With your caps landing in a random direction 40k off, you can potentially land on the opposite side from setup dreads with your caps. This greatly helps triage in the meta, since you cannot currently use triage against competent Wspace alliances at present if they're in their home holes(and tbh u need proper shield nidhoggur or shield archon if you want to use it at all - armor triage archons eat shit and die so fast vs even a single dread + subcaps).

    A side effect of this is further enforcing the fact that revelations are a bad joke, armor moros are utter shit, naglfars are stronk, and phoenix are magic that ain't noone understand or gotta explain. Close range dreads need to be properly fit to project damage at a minimum to 40k if u want to hit opposing caps @ jumpin if you're pre-setting up @0 on the hole. Anywhere else and you could end up further away.

    What this DOESN'T help is the exact thing. Your capitals can land spread out 80k apart. This forces you to make a choice between one or the other, and removes the ability of friendly triage to potentially rep each other or dreads. This punishes individuals jumping into others' holes with anything more than a single cap, which is quite honestly stupid.

    Fortunately, this is easily fixed - make the direction random only once. This way, hostiles cannot know where to setup to land you perfectly in optimal, yet, you still land at range.

    Simply have your caps land in a 10k deviation, 40k off the hole. This way you can still deploy multiple caps and be confident in not having them be suicidally wasted jumping into hostiles for a fight.

    Problem solved - carebear rolling is removed against active/proactive opponents, and while rage-rolling is slowed, it is not significantly impacted by these changes - in an empty WH its rather easy to get back on the hole in jump range within 30 seconds to a minute or so, tops.

    I am very ok with these changes and, if CCP takes the slight tweak I outlined above, looking forward to them hitting TQ for some awesome fights.

    I am a Lamborghini tractor.

  11. #31

    Join Date
    October 19, 2011
    Location
    Bookmark Both Sides / Exit Strategy..
    Posts
    156
    I get what CCP are trying to do by making ships more vulnerable when jumping wormholes in w-space, but 40km is excessive to the point where you'd be an idiot to try to roll with a cap unless you were baiting. Make it something like 10km so you're still outside jump range and anyone watching will have time to scramble some webs and bumps.

    From a strictly PVP point of view, I'm still undecided. It seems like a nice enough idea to pull fights away from the wormhole itself where you just jump back if you're threatened but I'm going to have to think twice about ever using a #YOLO dread again knowing that it has no chance of making it back to the hole so long as anyone saw it jump. Also they just nerfed the Ishtar, stop giving people more good reasons to use it god damn
    Last edited by olivehehe_03; August 4 2014 at 04:02:28 AM.

  12. #32
    Marlona Sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    7,324
    Why is reading a bunch of self entitled, risk averse carebears crying an ocean of delicious tears so amazing?

  13. #33
    Movember 2012 Stoffl's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    The original viennese waffle
    Posts
    20,260
    Quote Originally Posted by Xequecal View Post
    The change makes bulk importing into wormholes absurdly dangerous and really makes logistics a pain in the ass..
    And that is a reaaally good thing.
    Fuck the huge wh carebear empires and the JFs they rode in on.
    Last edited by Stoffl; August 4 2014 at 06:52:05 AM.

  14. #34
    Malcanis's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 12, 2011
    Posts
    13,118
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzel View Post
    Straight off the top of my head this would make hole rolling very painful, as you'd have to have a whole fleet ready to defend your cap which is now 40km off the return WH. Then again maybe that's the point.

    Makes people with alts casually closing holes to run sites a suicidal proposition.
    I get the feeling that is entirely the point. In some ways unknown space is reflecting what we see in null. Only the big boys running around decimating anyone who is not part of them and I don't mean there being a small difference. I am talking about a massive scale between an invading force and those defending. I don't know if it is as bad as null, but from what I read it has a lot of similarities. Especially in the large groups who wear maximum risk aversion like it is some kind of honor badge.

    I really hope to see some rage rolling capitals get bent over hard core with this change.
    Of course it's exactly the point. People effectively locking down wormholes so that they can be capital-farmed in peace is pretty much the opposite of what CCP had in mind when the created W-space.

  15. #35
    Malcanis's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 12, 2011
    Posts
    13,118
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Why is reading a bunch of self entitled, risk averse carebears crying an ocean of delicious tears so amazing?
    I mean nullbears manage to deal with gates that they can't close at all, why can't the elite W-space community?

  16. #36
    Malcanis's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 12, 2011
    Posts
    13,118
    Quote Originally Posted by LordsServant View Post
    This was actually one of the bugs/sploits I found in conjunction with that BH on SiSi.

    He thought it was a bug like I did - we had no idea it was actually workingAsIntended(tm).

    As far as my (incredibly educated and somewhat relevent due to my eve situation) opinion goes - this is a GOOD change, but only if they slightly tweak what they have now.

    I am all for making it harder to bear in wspace, and I am all for making committing capitals a srsbsns thing (you have no idea how much I fucking hate shitlers who intentionally crit holes or shit with their caps, or park their fleet on a WH with a cap ready to disengage and collapse hole the second they start losing).

    What I am NOT for is punishing individuals for being ballsy and trying to commit caps to a WH.

    The range is good in my opinion - near the edge of triage rep range from the hole @ 0.

    One really important thing this mixes up in the meta is the typical jump into perfectly setup blapdreads optimal.

    With your caps landing in a random direction 40k off, you can potentially land on the opposite side from setup dreads with your caps. This greatly helps triage in the meta, since you cannot currently use triage against competent Wspace alliances at present if they're in their home holes(and tbh u need proper shield nidhoggur or shield archon if you want to use it at all - armor triage archons eat shit and die so fast vs even a single dread + subcaps).

    A side effect of this is further enforcing the fact that revelations are a bad joke, armor moros are utter shit, naglfars are stronk, and phoenix are magic that ain't noone understand or gotta explain. Close range dreads need to be properly fit to project damage at a minimum to 40k if u want to hit opposing caps @ jumpin if you're pre-setting up @0 on the hole. Anywhere else and you could end up further away.

    What this DOESN'T help is the exact thing. Your capitals can land spread out 80k apart. This forces you to make a choice between one or the other, and removes the ability of friendly triage to potentially rep each other or dreads. This punishes individuals jumping into others' holes with anything more than a single cap, which is quite honestly stupid.

    Fortunately, this is easily fixed - make the direction random only once. This way, hostiles cannot know where to setup to land you perfectly in optimal, yet, you still land at range.

    Simply have your caps land in a 10k deviation, 40k off the hole. This way you can still deploy multiple caps and be confident in not having them be suicidally wasted jumping into hostiles for a fight.

    Problem solved - carebear rolling is removed against active/proactive opponents, and while rage-rolling is slowed, it is not significantly impacted by these changes - in an empty WH its rather easy to get back on the hole in jump range within 30 seconds to a minute or so, tops.

    I am very ok with these changes and, if CCP takes the slight tweak I outlined above, looking forward to them hitting TQ for some awesome fights.
    So what you're saying is that W-space just got a power projection nerf?

  17. #37
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,990
    I'm very much ok with further defining the niche of w-space. Got to take the resources for all the stuff to slap on to player built gates from somewhere. Besides, got to make sure that player behaviour within niches follows only specific pathways right.

    It gives tears on forum threads, so it's cool.
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  18. #38
    HEY LOOK AT ME I HAVE A TITAN LordsServant's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 3, 2011
    Location
    [VENIO]
    Posts
    4,639
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LordsServant View Post
    This was actually one of the bugs/sploits I found in conjunction with that BH on SiSi.

    He thought it was a bug like I did - we had no idea it was actually workingAsIntended(tm).

    As far as my (incredibly educated and somewhat relevent due to my eve situation) opinion goes - this is a GOOD change, but only if they slightly tweak what they have now.

    I am all for making it harder to bear in wspace, and I am all for making committing capitals a srsbsns thing (you have no idea how much I fucking hate shitlers who intentionally crit holes or shit with their caps, or park their fleet on a WH with a cap ready to disengage and collapse hole the second they start losing).

    What I am NOT for is punishing individuals for being ballsy and trying to commit caps to a WH.

    The range is good in my opinion - near the edge of triage rep range from the hole @ 0.

    One really important thing this mixes up in the meta is the typical jump into perfectly setup blapdreads optimal.

    With your caps landing in a random direction 40k off, you can potentially land on the opposite side from setup dreads with your caps. This greatly helps triage in the meta, since you cannot currently use triage against competent Wspace alliances at present if they're in their home holes(and tbh u need proper shield nidhoggur or shield archon if you want to use it at all - armor triage archons eat shit and die so fast vs even a single dread + subcaps).

    A side effect of this is further enforcing the fact that revelations are a bad joke, armor moros are utter shit, naglfars are stronk, and phoenix are magic that ain't noone understand or gotta explain. Close range dreads need to be properly fit to project damage at a minimum to 40k if u want to hit opposing caps @ jumpin if you're pre-setting up @0 on the hole. Anywhere else and you could end up further away.

    What this DOESN'T help is the exact thing. Your capitals can land spread out 80k apart. This forces you to make a choice between one or the other, and removes the ability of friendly triage to potentially rep each other or dreads. This punishes individuals jumping into others' holes with anything more than a single cap, which is quite honestly stupid.

    Fortunately, this is easily fixed - make the direction random only once. This way, hostiles cannot know where to setup to land you perfectly in optimal, yet, you still land at range.

    Simply have your caps land in a 10k deviation, 40k off the hole. This way you can still deploy multiple caps and be confident in not having them be suicidally wasted jumping into hostiles for a fight.

    Problem solved - carebear rolling is removed against active/proactive opponents, and while rage-rolling is slowed, it is not significantly impacted by these changes - in an empty WH its rather easy to get back on the hole in jump range within 30 seconds to a minute or so, tops.

    I am very ok with these changes and, if CCP takes the slight tweak I outlined above, looking forward to them hitting TQ for some awesome fights.
    So what you're saying is that W-space just got a power projection nerf?
    wut?

    Aight lemme rephrase.

    Wat?

    To me, what you just said makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    Would you mind rephrasing that somehow, or expanding on what you mean?

    I'm not understanding what w-space power projection has to do with anything of what I wrote that you're quoting. Did you mean to quote someone else? :S

    I am a Lamborghini tractor.

  19. #39
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,990
    Quote Originally Posted by LordsServant View Post

    I'm not understanding
    Yeah, no surprises there.
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  20. #40
    Donor
    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Location
    Wiltshire, UK
    Posts
    2,604
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlona Sky View Post
    Why is reading a bunch of self entitled, risk averse carebears crying an ocean of delicious tears so amazing?
    I mean nullbears manage to deal with gates that they can't close at all, why can't the elite W-space community?
    Null has local and advance notice of people coming to get you via intel channels because the route in is known and unchanging though, whereas w-space often the first you'll know of anyone coming to get you is seeing something on d-scan. Let's not conflate the two completely different paradigms of nullsec and w-space plz.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •