hate these ads?, log in or register to hide them
Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Immigration 2.0

  1. #1
    Keorythe's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Posts
    2,369

    Immigration 2.0

    Got tired of the Executive Order thread going off tangent. So for the sake of keeping the discussion of immigration from interfering, here we go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    right, so the problem is not so much their presence, but the fact that the underclass might gain the right to vote or indeed any influence at all Keorythe ?

    the United States is a nation build entirely on immigration, namely immigration of cheap unskilled labour, watching Europeans whine about immigration as the mother of all evils is pathetic, but Americans take the hypocrisy to a completely new and amazing level especially when the majority of the complaints come from people no more than at most four or five generations removed from sitting on a leaky raft drifting across the Atlantic.

    the entire debacle seems like a attempt to outdo the Belgians in the most dysfunctional democratic state possible, and despite the fact it's a very tall order you're getting there.
    You're confusing illegal and legal immigration as the same issue here. I see Euro's complaining about legal immigration all of the time and I think it's somewhat odd. With a declining birth rate, Europe is going to need those immigrants. On the other hand, the US is all about illegal immigration. It's kind of hard to claim hypocrisy when you can point to the different laws governing immigration "four or five generations removed". Why should we cheapen the sovereignty of the nation and reward those who break our laws with citizenship? Why are we tailoring citizenship to illegal immigrants but give the shaft to those attempting the normal route by not making it an option? Lets not forget that of those eligible, less than half actually become citizens. Many don't realize that the flow of illegal immigrants isn't one way and many end up returning to their home nations after developing a large nest egg.

    Only 46% of Hispanic immigrants eligible to naturalize (become citizens) have, compared with 71% percent of all immigrants who are not Hispanic and are eligible to naturalize. The naturalization rate is particularly low among the largest group of Hispanic immigrants Mexicans among whom just 36% have naturalized.
    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...-u-s-citizens/


    If we're so inclined to to have cheap labor or to "help those in need" then why not choose a number of less politically controversial paths? I've already mentioned the concept of a guest worker program or expansion of our residency program. I'm not worried about the 14th amendment as it would me a much slower and legal method of immigration. The issue with today's "reform" is that it's nothing more than a big amnesty ploy to get some potential voters (both legal Latinos and these which might support their party). It doesn't solve the issue of future illegal immigration much like Regan's attempt failed in the same manner.

  2. #2
    Larkonis Trassler's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    FEARLESS.
    Posts
    11,589
    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    With a declining birth rate, Europe is going to need those immigrants.
    I see this argument again and again. At the end of the day, 'immigration to solve the demographic crisis' in western European countries (and Japan) is a Human ponzi scheme and at worst a form of 'neo colonialism' where we steal the best of other countries to service our own. The Japs are attempting to automate as much of their healthcare system as they can. At the same time there's pressure put on local services, a race to the bottom in terms of wages and I'm fucking drunk mate.


  3. #3
    GiDiYi's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Posts
    3,363
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    the United States is a nation build entirely on immigration, namely immigration of cheap unskilled labour, watching Europeans whine about immigration as the mother of all evils is pathetic, but Americans take the hypocrisy to a completely new and amazing level especially when the majority of the complaints come from people no more than at most four or five generations removed from sitting on a leaky raft drifting across the Atlantic.
    That's totally true, but that's a huge problem regarding the proper handling of immigration nowadays for western European countries. To be honest, I can only speak about the situation in Germany because I don't know enough about other countries.

    After the last world war and the rise (or rebirth) of the german economy we had a gigantic need of, sorry to use this vocabulary, low level workers, that simply wasn't available in Germany. So there were millions and millions of immigrants from all over the poorer places in Europe that came and filled those slots. The level of education of these immigrants was, generally speaking, low. But they got kids, the kids went to school and so on and on. Nowadays we have a pretty large population of people with a turkish origin that are in their third generation in Germany. They are fully integrated and on all levels in the economy. Conveyor workers, doctors, members of the parliament. You name it.

    Our economy has changed a lot since the 60'ies. The need for low level workers has dropped dramatically. This is mostly due to our wealth. It's unfeasible to manufacture most products in my country while competing in a world wide market with low wage countries like China. So our economy doesn't create positions for unskilled workers and our immigration laws try to cope with it, i.e. they make it a lot harder to immigrate legally.

    It's not fun to live in this country without a proper education. You're a non asset for the job market. Hence you end up 'on the dole' and this is unhealthy for you and your social environment. The worst thing: It's something that transfers to your offspring if it extends a certain amount of time, creating parts of generations that can only be considered useless in the bigger picture. Again, I want to apologise for my wording here. It sounds extremely harsh and may sound inappropriate, but I don't know how to put it differently at the moment. It's a downward spiral for quite a few people and I have no clue what could be done to help them out of it. And no, from my personal experience they can't help themselves because they don't know how to either.

    tl;dr: Boundary-less immigration is something that western economies can't afford anymore, because their market can't cope with the classic development of immigrating families anymore. We need to find a different route.

    And for the record: I'd call myself left leaning. But this is the situation at hand from my point of view.

  4. #4
    Cosmin's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 14, 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    5,986
    Being a wealthy nation doesn't really mean you don't need low-skilled workers anymore, there's always a job flipping burgers anywhere you look for one.

    From the pov of a highly-skilled immigrant, I'd say current immigration laws are extremely crappy. I do have a job, I have also a lot of other oppurtunities, but let's face it, the way here is extremely annoying. Not to mention my fiancee, who is technically also a highly skilled worker, working a crappy job because britfags have a problem if your diploma doesn't say Oxford or something like that whilst working in finance jobs. She also had to wait ~1 year for her blue card, which is really unacceptable, she came here to work and pay her taxes, not to rob people or anything like that. Not to mention we actually had to sue UKBA because they deliberately ignored paperwork we sent in due time and the dude who represented them was like "oh, ok, we haven't seen this, you're right and we're wrong". We got the legal representative monies back (~1 year later, nvm), but the time can't be turned back or re-used.

    With me it's quite a lot easier, since doctors numbers are at an all time low across Europe and education costs are through the roof for medical schools, so nobody really goes for that anymore in the west. The way we're integrated in the system is terrible, though, and possibilities to advance are scarce and based on how much your face and political skills help you, not actual job-related skills. Obviously you can't work properly if you behave like a savage, but the politics involved are mindblowing at a certain point. Otoh, I do like guns are illegal here, I like the people, I like the weather (ohones, I do), I like mostly everything. Except english sausages. M8s, those things are terribad.

    My point in all this is that legal immigration is made harder whilst illegal immigration thrives, and it isn't only the UK, but most of Europe here. How to fix this? Make legal immigration take a lot less time, make the people who work at UKBA and similar agencies across Europe actually work and do their jobs properly, whilst escalating on the illegal immigration control. P. simple, but p. difficult do to.
    Guns make the news, science doesn't.

  5. #5
    Donor Aea's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 13, 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    14,392
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Being a wealthy nation doesn't really mean you don't need low-skilled workers anymore, there's always a job flipping burgers anywhere you look for one.
    Strongly disagree, robots will be flipping burgers within a decade.

  6. #6
    Super Moderator Global Moderator QuackBot's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 7, 2012
    Posts
    21,157
    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post

    Strongly disagree, robots will be flipping burgers within a decade.
    Disagree, to use red dragon arty you have to be. But i have a massive soft spot for schisms after it freaked me the fuck out.

  7. #7
    Donor
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    16,529
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post

    Strongly disagree, robots will be flipping burgers within a decade.
    Disagree, to use red dragon arty you have to be. But i have a massive soft spot for schisms after it freaked me the fuck out.
    TIL Robots don't want to work in the fast food industry.

  8. #8
    Ophichius's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 15, 2011
    Location
    Hedonistic Imperative
    Posts
    5,251
    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Being a wealthy nation doesn't really mean you don't need low-skilled workers anymore, there's always a job flipping burgers anywhere you look for one.
    Strongly disagree, robots will be flipping burgers within a decade.
    On what basis? If it was cheaper, McD's would already have done it. They have every other part of the process pared down to an exercise in efficiency, ethics be damned.

    If it really was cheaper to use robots, every McD's would already be an assembly line where pureed beef slurry was unloaded from automated tankers and pumped into one end of the machine, and precisely machined burgers were spit out the other end directly into the fat slobs waiting at the pay window.

    -O
    I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those Thukkers, that way I wouldn't have to have any goddamn stupid useless conversations with anybody.
    Failing the Voight-Kampff test, one tortoise at a time.

  9. #9
    מלך יהודים Zeekar's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    15,069
    Robots are currently still expensive to produce, this will change over time.


    

  10. #10
    Keorythe's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Posts
    2,369
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophichius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Being a wealthy nation doesn't really mean you don't need low-skilled workers anymore, there's always a job flipping burgers anywhere you look for one.
    Strongly disagree, robots will be flipping burgers within a decade.
    On what basis? If it was cheaper, McD's would already have done it. They have every other part of the process pared down to an exercise in efficiency, ethics be damned.

    If it really was cheaper to use robots, every McD's would already be an assembly line where pureed beef slurry was unloaded from automated tankers and pumped into one end of the machine, and precisely machined burgers were spit out the other end directly into the fat slobs waiting at the pay window.

    -O
    McD's is already starting to automate things. I watched as a drink dispenser rotated, picked the right size cup and then pour the drink. The girl only had to secure the lid. The process of making the meat patty still requires labor but I imagine that at some point the assembly of the rest of the burger will be automated. Eventually they'll probably reduce staff down to three instead of eight. Heck, I'm surprised they don't have automatic order menus by now. But some places are just slow to automate for trivial reasons. Eventually, most will go down this road as the technology becomes available and the low end jobs will get replaced.

  11. #11
    Straight Hustlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 14, 2011
    Posts
    10,365
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophichius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Being a wealthy nation doesn't really mean you don't need low-skilled workers anymore, there's always a job flipping burgers anywhere you look for one.
    Strongly disagree, robots will be flipping burgers within a decade.
    On what basis? If it was cheaper, McD's would already have done it. They have every other part of the process pared down to an exercise in efficiency, ethics be damned.

    If it really was cheaper to use robots, every McD's would already be an assembly line where pureed beef slurry was unloaded from automated tankers and pumped into one end of the machine, and precisely machined burgers were spit out the other end directly into the fat slobs waiting at the pay window.

    -O


    Its already starting. Grill lines are next, I know a mechanical engineer who is working on an entirely automated system for fast food joints. You just load it with the patties, cheese, buns, condiments etc. and the machine spits out a burger on the end.

  12. #12
    Donor Aea's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 13, 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    14,392
    Quote Originally Posted by Straight Hustlin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophichius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Being a wealthy nation doesn't really mean you don't need low-skilled workers anymore, there's always a job flipping burgers anywhere you look for one.
    Strongly disagree, robots will be flipping burgers within a decade.
    On what basis? If it was cheaper, McD's would already have done it. They have every other part of the process pared down to an exercise in efficiency, ethics be damned.

    If it really was cheaper to use robots, every McD's would already be an assembly line where pureed beef slurry was unloaded from automated tankers and pumped into one end of the machine, and precisely machined burgers were spit out the other end directly into the fat slobs waiting at the pay window.

    -O


    Its already starting. Grill lines are next, I know a mechanical engineer who is working on an entirely automated system for fast food joints. You just load it with the patties, cheese, buns, condiments etc. and the machine spits out a burger on the end.
    To add to this, it's getting cheaper, year after year. And once it gets commoditized it will be ubiquitous in outlets that rely on low prices and small margins.

    Add to that the predictability of robots and you'll have a small kitchen staff and one tech on hand to ensure things are running smoothly.

  13. #13
    Steph's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    Canadia
    Posts
    9,254
    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    The issue with today's "reform" is that it's nothing more than a big amnesty ploy to get some potential voters (both legal Latinos and these which might support their party). It doesn't solve the issue of future illegal immigration much like Regan's attempt failed in the same manner.
    Forgive me for asking but, would you be as vehemently opposed if immigrants naturalized as a result of said reform were to vote Republican?

    I find it a little misleading to deride anything as a "ploy to get more voters". The basis of the democratic system is: Politician gets elected, Politician does thing, Voters like thing, Voters vote for Politician in the next election - or Voters dislike thing, Voters do not vote for Politician etc. In that context, every single thing done in Washington is a "ploy to get more voters". That is by definition how democracy works.

    To paraphrase Aea's question in the other thread - which you dodged - is this really about immigration, or is it about party politics?
    Last edited by Steph; July 12 2014 at 04:29:22 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Canadians are usually cooler.
    Thermonuclear Banana Split - A not-really-weekly Eclipse Phase campaign journal

  14. #14
    Keorythe's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Posts
    2,369
    Quote Originally Posted by Steph View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keorythe View Post
    The issue with today's "reform" is that it's nothing more than a big amnesty ploy to get some potential voters (both legal Latinos and these which might support their party). It doesn't solve the issue of future illegal immigration much like Regan's attempt failed in the same manner.
    Forgive me for asking but, would you be as vehemently opposed if immigrants naturalized as a result of said reform were to vote Republican?

    I find it a little misleading to deride anything as a "ploy to get more voters". The basis of the democratic system is: Politician gets elected, Politician does thing, Voters like thing, Voters vote for Politician in the next election - or Voters dislike thing, Voters do not vote for Politician etc. In that context, every single thing done in Washington is a "ploy to get more voters". That is by definition how democracy works.

    To paraphrase Aea's question in the other thread - which you dodged - is this really about immigration, or is it about party politics?
    I wouldn't care less if they voted republican and offered unlimited back rubs. When you have uncontrolled immigration in a country then you have issues. As more and more come in you can only hope that they take up jobs that aren't under the counter/ paid in cash jobs that aren't taxable, weigh down your health care system by going to emergency rooms for minor stuff since they can't afford/afraid to get their own insurance, increase crime, increase cross border disease, increased drug smuggling, weapon smuggling, and even security threats (these last ones have grown by a large margin). You know the list of issues that happen.

    To answer your earlier question, yes this is also about party politics. But in this case it's been about the Democrats trying to make citizens out of them for the past two decades. Bush almost went through with that plan as a compromise until uproar from the base killed support for it over a single week period. All other options are torpedoed by the Democrats unless they get the path to citizenship added. No guest worker program, no mass residency, no large scale work visa plan, nothing unless it has some path to citizenship. Something that ONLY applies to illegal immigrants and won't help those trying to enter legally. And that doesn't even address the fact that the 11 million number in this country is fluid with many returning home after collecting a large nest egg with which to live on.

    I've met more than my fair share of these people. Some of them are really nice and even hard workers. That mantra only applies to some of them as I've met my fair share who are damn lazy but that's human nature. Some of them had really good stories for why the came over and I would do the same if I was in their place. But I'm not and many of them don't care about this country outside of what kind of paycheck they could get from it. There are plenty of exceptions but that's not the general rule for them and their home country will always be their home country.

    For the record, the question you posed isn't really a question as much as an accusation. Hence why I ignored most of it and will let you vent your own opinion on the matter. You've got mine above.

  15. #15
    THE PUNISHED
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    Fuck UngoodTuesdays
    Posts
    10,505
    Frankly, I just don't like the idea of more Mexicans / Blacks / Muslims coming to my country and asking for things that change the status quo.

    Because then I'm scared. Because things will be different. And I don't like things that are different.

  16. #16
    Moderator Moderator F*** My Aunt Rita's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    Whereever particular mexicans congregate.
    Posts
    3,026
    http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...l#.U8Itp_ldWFU

    Good primer article. Sadly America has a long and proud history of knownothingism. I'd like to think opponents of immigration reform are making rational arguments but a 13 year "path to citizenship" being too easy is nonsense. I got it by virtue of my mother squirting me out here. Seems way less noble than a family setting down generational roots.

  17. #17
    Keorythe's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Posts
    2,369
    The whole formula for immigration reform can fall into place if two basic issues are solved. First, securing our borders so we know who is entering our country and for what purpose. Second, a legalization of those folks who are already here, many of whom have been here for a decade or more. In addition, we should provide them with a path to citizenship much like any other immigrant would have. Those two things being satisfied, I believe immigration reform can move forward.
    He makes it sound so simple yet it's not and there are many hurdles here.

    1) Securing the border has been on the last two immigration bills that did pass. Those portions languished and the border is sill in a very poor state right now. The last failed bill put conditions on border security happening first before any other part would begin. The one before that was strictly about securing the border and it never made it out of the Senate. The fact that you have to compromise on any bill to get border security should give you a clue as to what the Democrats are shooting for here. But this is really the lynchpin of immigration reform. Because if you don't secure the border then this cycle just repeats itself and you end up having this debate in another decade. Again, we look at the Regan amnesty plan which follows the same route except with a green card and 13yr path to citizenship instead of instant amnesty. It's failure to secure the border has us back in the same position today.

    2) Legalization of those here - The easy way is just give everyone residency. That's the easiest way to handle the issue but also the least effective. It doesn't address the need for future workers should this current batch decide to retire or attrition rates due to crime and deportation. Nor does it address the others that will still be coming here illegally and make it past the border. Rather than a comprehensive program like a Guest Worker program or something else that provides temporary residency on a long term basis, which requires them to check in and keep details up to date, the current plan only take cares of the current issue. Again, this hinges on the idea that the border will actually be secured this time and if it isn't then this whole ordeal fails again in the future.

    - Will there be future legalization or will this be a one time event?
    - Can an individual from another country apply for residency and be processed with the same alacrity given to those here illegally?
    - The article mentions "skilled worker" which illegal immigrants are not. How will these changes apply to the H1B visa program?
    - Will the 13yr Path to Citizenship apply to all new immigrants in the future or only to those that are here illegally?
    - Will this effect any other immigration programs such as the number of non-illegal immigrant residencies?

    Of course the elephant in the room that he bypasses is, "Why must there be an abbreviated path to citizenship instead of the normal naturalization process that all other permanent residents go through? Why not just residency which gives them the ability to work, live, and run a business without fear of deportation?"

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •