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Thread: Ukraine: Russian Invasion

  1. #21181

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    ...

    e: also propaganda, Ukr is really good at it.
    Let's be honest, it's really easy with the kind of performance and standards russian army presents. I wouldn't even call it propaganda on Ukr side. Just showing how things are or not talking at all when things don't go their way.
    Don't kid yourself, theres quite a lot of propaganda on our side too, this is how this works. It's just not as easy to discern from Russian propaganda, because Russians are just so extremely incompetent at everything they do it's easier to stretch the truth for the Ukrainians to make it sound plausible.
    I have not seen blatant propaganda from Ukrainian sources, apart for some odd photos of pets and fighters.
    Guiding western journalists through that alley of dead civilians in my book counts as propaganda. Don't mistake propaganda (only) for blatant lies. You can make facts work very well in your way, if "presented" right. And that's the master class of propaganda, because it can't be rebuted later. Lies OTOH sooner or later come to light, making the one publishing them look really bad.
    So presenting the unaltered truth is now propaganda? If you refer to Bucha, I call it propaganda if the pictures were published by MOD of Ukraine or other state controlled source. Any photo or footage are easy to debunk today, when we have geolocation, private satellite network, biometric software, everybody has a phone with camera. How about surveillance camera, still counts as propaganda?

  2. #21182
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Crush View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    ...

    e: also propaganda, Ukr is really good at it.
    Let's be honest, it's really easy with the kind of performance and standards russian army presents. I wouldn't even call it propaganda on Ukr side. Just showing how things are or not talking at all when things don't go their way.
    Don't kid yourself, theres quite a lot of propaganda on our side too, this is how this works. It's just not as easy to discern from Russian propaganda, because Russians are just so extremely incompetent at everything they do it's easier to stretch the truth for the Ukrainians to make it sound plausible.
    I have not seen blatant propaganda from Ukrainian sources, apart for some odd photos of pets and fighters.
    Guiding western journalists through that alley of dead civilians in my book counts as propaganda. Don't mistake propaganda (only) for blatant lies. You can make facts work very well in your way, if "presented" right. And that's the master class of propaganda, because it can't be rebuted later. Lies OTOH sooner or later come to light, making the one publishing them look really bad.
    So presenting the unaltered truth is now propaganda? If you refer to Bucha, I call it propaganda if the pictures were published by MOD of Ukraine or other state controlled source. Any photo or footage are easy to debunk today, when we have geolocation, private satellite network, biometric software, everybody has a phone with camera. How about surveillance camera, still counts as propaganda?
    What I said.

  3. #21183
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    It's information used to promote a political cause. Propaganda isn't necessarily misinformation (although it can be).
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  4. #21184
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    It's information used to promote a political cause. Propaganda isn't necessarily misinformation (although it can be).
    pretty much this

  5. #21185
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Already debunked. Although a bit of a pity, from a cynical point of view, because sending moscow and petersburg hipsters with the kind of logistic and supplies russia can provide in Ukraine is the fastest way to get rid of Putin. With their own hands.
    In regards to officially announcing war and general mobilization. This and a couple of other things were talked about in swedish pod. And they experts in there came to the same conclusion, its very unlikely Putin would do it as it has a great chance of turning the people against him.
    And that is apparently his greatest fear, people rising up. His experience at the end of the cold war and the falling of the wall put great scars in his soul apparently. It got worse with the Arab spring revolts as he saw what happened to other dictators and strong men, if not outright ousted/killed the countries fell into absolute chaos and civil war. And he likes order and control above everything else.

    Other interesting points made was for (the real) reasons/theories of the war
    1. Natural resources. Ukraine going more west and possibly having more resources than Russia for O&G could mean they can replace Rus as supplier and therefor influencer on Europe. And ofc the general strategic idea of controlling more O&G, just like the US have done. This one is sort of obvious.

    2. Natural resources, in the truest form; Ukraine is one of only 4 areas in the world with the absolute best farming grounds and its extremely productive and not, currently, seeing any real effect of soil degradation. Controlling food supply not only for Rus but for a big chunk of the world is quite possibly more valuable than O&G.

    Putler having control of both of those including the ports would be very, very bad.


    But...this of course was based on that he wins which thankfully does not seem likely at the moment.
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  6. #21186
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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  7. #21187
    Donor Miep's Avatar
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    Ukrainian troops have crossed the Russian border, north-east of Charkow, direction Belogrod. According to Russian sources they have advanced several kilometers.

    Long live the pro ukrainian People's Republic of Belogrod!
    When I see a bird that walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck id call it a duck.
    And if the bird denies to be a duck it is a russian duck.

  8. #21188

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    Those Ukrainians are simply conducting a special military operation to de-Nazify Russia.

  9. #21189
    Straight Hustlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowa [NSN] View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Already debunked. Although a bit of a pity, from a cynical point of view, because sending moscow and petersburg hipsters with the kind of logistic and supplies russia can provide in Ukraine is the fastest way to get rid of Putin. With their own hands.
    In regards to officially announcing war and general mobilization. This and a couple of other things were talked about in swedish pod. And they experts in there came to the same conclusion, its very unlikely Putin would do it as it has a great chance of turning the people against him.
    And that is apparently his greatest fear, people rising up. His experience at the end of the cold war and the falling of the wall put great scars in his soul apparently. It got worse with the Arab spring revolts as he saw what happened to other dictators and strong men, if not outright ousted/killed the countries fell into absolute chaos and civil war. And he likes order and control above everything else.

    Other interesting points made was for (the real) reasons/theories of the war
    1. Natural resources. Ukraine going more west and possibly having more resources than Russia for O&G could mean they can replace Rus as supplier and therefor influencer on Europe. And ofc the general strategic idea of controlling more O&G, just like the US have done. This one is sort of obvious.

    2. Natural resources, in the truest form; Ukraine is one of only 4 areas in the world with the absolute best farming grounds and its extremely productive and not, currently, seeing any real effect of soil degradation. Controlling food supply not only for Rus but for a big chunk of the world is quite possibly more valuable than O&G.

    Putler having control of both of those including the ports would be very, very bad.


    But...this of course was based on that he wins which thankfully does not seem likely at the moment.
    While I believe this is certainly a big part of it, I think the larger reason is that Putin is more afraid of an open, democratic, and prosperous Ukraine sitting on his borders. Because then his people might start asking why their supposed lessers have a better quality of life than they do.

  10. #21190
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight Hustlin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lowa [NSN] View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Already debunked. Although a bit of a pity, from a cynical point of view, because sending moscow and petersburg hipsters with the kind of logistic and supplies russia can provide in Ukraine is the fastest way to get rid of Putin. With their own hands.
    In regards to officially announcing war and general mobilization. This and a couple of other things were talked about in swedish pod. And they experts in there came to the same conclusion, its very unlikely Putin would do it as it has a great chance of turning the people against him.
    And that is apparently his greatest fear, people rising up. His experience at the end of the cold war and the falling of the wall put great scars in his soul apparently. It got worse with the Arab spring revolts as he saw what happened to other dictators and strong men, if not outright ousted/killed the countries fell into absolute chaos and civil war. And he likes order and control above everything else.

    Other interesting points made was for (the real) reasons/theories of the war
    1. Natural resources. Ukraine going more west and possibly having more resources than Russia for O&G could mean they can replace Rus as supplier and therefor influencer on Europe. And ofc the general strategic idea of controlling more O&G, just like the US have done. This one is sort of obvious.

    2. Natural resources, in the truest form; Ukraine is one of only 4 areas in the world with the absolute best farming grounds and its extremely productive and not, currently, seeing any real effect of soil degradation. Controlling food supply not only for Rus but for a big chunk of the world is quite possibly more valuable than O&G.

    Putler having control of both of those including the ports would be very, very bad.


    But...this of course was based on that he wins which thankfully does not seem likely at the moment.
    While I believe this is certainly a big part of it, I think the larger reason is that Putin is more afraid of an open, democratic, and prosperous Ukraine sitting on his borders. Because then his people might start asking why their supposed lessers have a better quality of life than they do.
    This is already happening. Russian soldiers can't believe villages have paved roads and electricity. Here's a fun exercise: go to google maps, zoom out so you can see both Europe on entire russia including asian part and start dragging streetview person-thingy. Or check globe at night.

  11. #21191
    Lowa [NSN]'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Straight Hustlin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lowa [NSN] View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Already debunked. Although a bit of a pity, from a cynical point of view, because sending moscow and petersburg hipsters with the kind of logistic and supplies russia can provide in Ukraine is the fastest way to get rid of Putin. With their own hands.
    In regards to officially announcing war and general mobilization. This and a couple of other things were talked about in swedish pod. And they experts in there came to the same conclusion, its very unlikely Putin would do it as it has a great chance of turning the people against him.
    And that is apparently his greatest fear, people rising up. His experience at the end of the cold war and the falling of the wall put great scars in his soul apparently. It got worse with the Arab spring revolts as he saw what happened to other dictators and strong men, if not outright ousted/killed the countries fell into absolute chaos and civil war. And he likes order and control above everything else.

    Other interesting points made was for (the real) reasons/theories of the war
    1. Natural resources. Ukraine going more west and possibly having more resources than Russia for O&G could mean they can replace Rus as supplier and therefor influencer on Europe. And ofc the general strategic idea of controlling more O&G, just like the US have done. This one is sort of obvious.

    2. Natural resources, in the truest form; Ukraine is one of only 4 areas in the world with the absolute best farming grounds and its extremely productive and not, currently, seeing any real effect of soil degradation. Controlling food supply not only for Rus but for a big chunk of the world is quite possibly more valuable than O&G.

    Putler having control of both of those including the ports would be very, very bad.


    But...this of course was based on that he wins which thankfully does not seem likely at the moment.
    While I believe this is certainly a big part of it, I think the larger reason is that Putin is more afraid of an open, democratic, and prosperous Ukraine sitting on his borders. Because then his people might start asking why their supposed lessers have a better quality of life than they do.
    This is already happening. Russian soldiers can't believe villages have paved roads and electricity. Here's a fun exercise: go to google maps, zoom out so you can see both Europe on entire russia including asian part and start dragging streetview person-thingy. Or check globe at night.
    For sure. Given that their looting is quite heavy on appliances like washers and fridges among other "low value" items, like just what a normal person would consider basic stuff. If they already had ok things that wouldnt happen (as much. is my armchair guess anyway).
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
    I would create a dragon made out of vaginas. Then I would create a dragon made out of dicks. Then I would have them fight to the death.

  12. #21192
    Donor Miep's Avatar
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    Holy moly.
    Those attempted river crossing by the ruskies was an even worse clusterfuck then i thought. Thats more then a BTG lost here:
    When I see a bird that walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck id call it a duck.
    And if the bird denies to be a duck it is a russian duck.

  13. #21193
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    BoTh SiDeS aRe tHe SaMe

    Possibly the dumbest edgelord take on propeganda yet. On the one hand we have the side claiming the other side are exclusively nazis bent on ethnic cleansing, committing false flag massacres on their own people and losing the war despite recapturing 70% of the territory the other side invaded, all through the medium of faked media and deliberate lies.

    On the other we have the side that uses heavily documented actual factual reality, re-broadcast, to influence people and morale, lionises and exaggerates a few standout hero's contributions to the war, and downplays its own failings and losses.

    If you think these things are the same I don't know what to tell you.
    Last edited by Lallante; May 12 2022 at 02:03:31 PM.

  14. #21194
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    Jo Nesbo wrote an op-Ed in the Guardian about propaganda and it’s use to the West.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...upied-jo-nesbo

    I highly recommend giving it a read.
    nevar forget

  15. #21195
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    Ukrainian troops have crossed the Russian border, north-east of Charkow, direction Belogrod. According to Russian sources they have advanced several kilometers.

    Long live the pro ukrainian People's Republic of Belogrod!
    Sauce?
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
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  16. #21196
    Donor Miep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    Ukrainian troops have crossed the Russian border, north-east of Charkow, direction Belogrod. According to Russian sources they have advanced several kilometers.

    Long live the pro ukrainian People's Republic of Belogrod!
    Sauce?
    Russian village 11km from the border:
    https://twitter.com/NotWoofers/statu...PxUld8UzA&s=19
    Belogrod:
    https://twitter.com/MarQs__/status/1...dCHtPY_kw&s=19





    And this ru Wagner guy
    https://twitter.com/mdmitri91/status...AmehC2aow&s=19
    And this one
    https://twitter.com/lilygrutcher/sta...ZuFyVnKVg&s=19

    Take with a bit of salt of course ����*♀️
    When I see a bird that walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck id call it a duck.
    And if the bird denies to be a duck it is a russian duck.

  17. #21197
    Kilabi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    BoTh SiDeS aRe tHe SaMe

    Possibly the dumbest edgelord take on propeganda yet. On the one hand we have the side claiming the other side are exclusively nazis bent on ethnic cleansing, committing false flag massacres on their own people and losing the war despite recapturing 70% of the territory the other side invaded, all through the medium of faked media and deliberate lies.

    On the other we have the side that uses heavily documented actual factual reality, re-broadcast, to influence people and morale, lionises and exaggerates a few standout hero's contributions to the war, and downplays its own failings and losses.

    If you think these things are the same I don't know what to tell you.
    War is bad, everybody should just stop. The ukrainians are shooting back so itīs their fault too.

  18. #21198
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilabi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    BoTh SiDeS aRe tHe SaMe

    Possibly the dumbest edgelord take on propeganda yet. On the one hand we have the side claiming the other side are exclusively nazis bent on ethnic cleansing, committing false flag massacres on their own people and losing the war despite recapturing 70% of the territory the other side invaded, all through the medium of faked media and deliberate lies.

    On the other we have the side that uses heavily documented actual factual reality, re-broadcast, to influence people and morale, lionises and exaggerates a few standout hero's contributions to the war, and downplays its own failings and losses.

    If you think these things are the same I don't know what to tell you.
    War is bad, everybody should just stop. The ukrainians are shooting back so itīs their fault too.
    Yeah, they should stop doing that. It will work out ok for them in the end, right?

  19. #21199
    Kilabi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilabi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    BoTh SiDeS aRe tHe SaMe

    Possibly the dumbest edgelord take on propeganda yet. On the one hand we have the side claiming the other side are exclusively nazis bent on ethnic cleansing, committing false flag massacres on their own people and losing the war despite recapturing 70% of the territory the other side invaded, all through the medium of faked media and deliberate lies.

    On the other we have the side that uses heavily documented actual factual reality, re-broadcast, to influence people and morale, lionises and exaggerates a few standout hero's contributions to the war, and downplays its own failings and losses.

    If you think these things are the same I don't know what to tell you.
    War is bad, everybody should just stop. The ukrainians are shooting back so itīs their fault too.
    Yeah, they should stop doing that. It will work out ok for them in the end, right?
    I think they should just give them the eastern half of the country with all the stuff and people in it and sign away any right to reform the rest and join NATO or the EU with a russian appointed head of state and they could be free again right away. But no, Ukraine choose war...

  20. #21200
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilabi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilabi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    BoTh SiDeS aRe tHe SaMe

    Possibly the dumbest edgelord take on propeganda yet. On the one hand we have the side claiming the other side are exclusively nazis bent on ethnic cleansing, committing false flag massacres on their own people and losing the war despite recapturing 70% of the territory the other side invaded, all through the medium of faked media and deliberate lies.

    On the other we have the side that uses heavily documented actual factual reality, re-broadcast, to influence people and morale, lionises and exaggerates a few standout hero's contributions to the war, and downplays its own failings and losses.

    If you think these things are the same I don't know what to tell you.
    War is bad, everybody should just stop. The ukrainians are shooting back so itīs their fault too.
    Yeah, they should stop doing that. It will work out ok for them in the end, right?
    I think they should just give them the eastern half of the country with all the stuff and people in it and sign away any right to reform the rest and join NATO or the EU with a russian appointed head of state and they could be free again right away. But no, Ukraine choose war...
    Hahahahahaha. Well, it didn't take long for useful idiots to wipe from their memory that Putin was aiming to annex entire Ukraine PLUS Transnistria. The army near Kiev was on a country picnic, da comrade?

    And when was there a choice for Ukraine to be made? Can you please point out the date? Because as far as I remember they were simply invaded overnight no questions asked.

    Well I take what I said above about Ukraine wining on propaganda front back. Turns out russian is still as effective as ever.
    Last edited by rufuske; May 12 2022 at 04:02:19 PM.

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