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Thread: Ukraine: Russian Invasion

  1. #21161
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    Sometimes you miss the obvious when it is staring you in the face. Ukrainians were discussing how many lollipops they had had today and I thought oh they are getting sweets how nice. They were referring to blowing off Russian tank turrets that look like lollipops.

    It is still hard to comprehend that you can now watch people dying in battle in almost real time. From the last videos I have watched you are talking at least a hundred Russians killed or wounded and a few Ukrainians. Worst was a small unit of Russians who seemed to be living in a civillian house and using a civillian car for transport. A small drone drops a mortar bomb and wounds two of the Russians. The other three bravely flee to the car and try to drive away, but a second mortar bomb falls straight through the open sunroof and explodes inside. The doors fly open and a limbless corpse falls out.

    In WW2 most combat footage was either faked or was taken from the POV of friendly forces where you almost never saw the enemy. This continued up to today where you still only saw the troops near the camera and only saw enemies post engagement. Now you see guys getting blown to bits in 4K resolution from 100 feet above.
    Last edited by Maximillian; May 11 2022 at 03:40:05 AM.

  2. #21162
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    What astonishes me is how much of this conflict is small skirmishes, like fewer than 6 people on each side. Vehicles operating solo with no support.
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  3. #21163
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    What astonishes me is how much of this conflict is small skirmishes, like fewer than 6 people on each side. Vehicles operating solo with no support.
    It comes down to density of forces - Ukraine is large so 100K troops isn't a big number given the area - and the fact that concentrations of troops and vehicles are just targets for drones and artillery.

    NATO trained the Ukrainians to use small strike teams who know the terrain to use mobility and stealth to attack a far larger enemy in the shape of Russia and its allies. The pure incompetence of the Russian forces has surprised everyone: their inability to lock down the airspace, their inability to supply large formations, their inability to maintain vital equipment, and the lack of training in anything resembling small unit or combined arm tactics.

    Hence the Russian tactics have devolved into pound an area with unguided artillery. Try to advance. Get ripped apart by mobile teams or well dug in Ukrainian forces. Run away abandoning equipment, dead and wounded. Pound with artillery again. Rinse repeat until you are forced to retreat. Then try the same tactics somewhere else.

    That is why they can't take the steel plant in Mariupol - artillery can't root out a determined enemy from a system of bunkers and tunnels intended to survive a nuclear war. Also the fact that the Russians are murdering POWs and civillians means that no one is surrendering but instead fighting to the last costing the Russians even more casualties.

    I know Putin doesn't care about Russian lives but at some point the Russians will run out of soldiers willing to die. Already the "volunteers" from the Donbas have decided that they'd rather live in Russian than die in the Dombas. The Chechans fight for loot and as that runs out they also are remembering that they left the iron on back home.

    Given the Russians have basically burnt through all the usual responses - mass-attack, warcrimes, flatten cities - and all that is left is hollow threats of "escalation" (with what?) or nuclear war (wont happen) then all that is left is carry on in the same stupid manner until they are driven off Ukrainian soil.
    Last edited by Maximillian; May 11 2022 at 06:20:20 AM.

  4. #21164

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    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    current verdict out on that one seems to be that is is made in arm3, and has the wrong radar on the ship.
    Both of these remind me of the typical "alien UFO" pictures/videos. For whatever reaons, those are also always shaken and blurry.

  5. #21165

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jori McKie View Post
    I still like this site for updates on the war.
    https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...nflict-updates

    It has an interesting update for yesterday, it seems Ukraine arms are not only counterattacking in the north, while having enough defence in the south and east, they're making considerable gains and the site calls it an counteroffensive.
    https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...sessment-may-6


    I read about that Germany is now delivering 7x Panzerhaubitze 2000, with the Netherlands 5x. First i thought well only 7 what a pity as the US delivered like 90 howitzer but then i checked what that Panzerhaubitze 2000 is capable of. 12 of this thingies alone are bad juju for Russia, they come with counterattacking radar, smart ammo and the fire rate... holy shit.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerhaubitze_2000
    The Ukraine crews today arrived at my home town (Idar-Oberstein) to receive their training on these beasts. It's the home of the Bundeswehr's Artillerieschule (=literally "artillery school").

  6. #21166

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    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    thread title set, i will look very dimly on anyone who decides to do some UwU or meme or edgy shite. We're in our late 20s and 30s now, grow up you idiots.
    Who can even change the title of a thread except mods and the OP? That don't leave many people to watch.

  7. #21167

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    thread title set, i will look very dimly on anyone who decides to do some UwU or meme or edgy shite. We're in our late 20s and 30s now, grow up you idiots.
    Who can even change the title of a thread except mods and the OP? That don't leave many people to watch.
    It's phpbb, so basically anyone can fuck with it! =)

  8. #21168
    VARRAKK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    thread title set, i will look very dimly on anyone who decides to do some UwU or meme or edgy shite. We're in our late 20s and 30s now, grow up you idiots.
    Who can even change the title of a thread except mods and the OP? That don't leave many people to watch.
    It's phpbb, so basically anyone can fuck with it! =)
    Why is it called earth, when it is mostly water???

  9. #21169

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Sometimes you miss the obvious when it is staring you in the face. Ukrainians were discussing how many lollipops they had had today and I thought oh they are getting sweets how nice. They were referring to blowing off Russian tank turrets that look like lollipops.

    It is still hard to comprehend that you can now watch people dying in battle in almost real time. From the last videos I have watched you are talking at least a hundred Russians killed or wounded and a few Ukrainians. Worst was a small unit of Russians who seemed to be living in a civillian house and using a civillian car for transport. A small drone drops a mortar bomb and wounds two of the Russians. The other three bravely flee to the car and try to drive away, but a second mortar bomb falls straight through the open sunroof and explodes inside. The doors fly open and a limbless corpse falls out.

    In WW2 most combat footage was either faked or was taken from the POV of friendly forces where you almost never saw the enemy. This continued up to today where you still only saw the troops near the camera and only saw enemies post engagement. Now you see guys getting blown to bits in 4K resolution from 100 feet above.
    I said on day 2 of the war how it will be interesting to see how the new style warfare (Drones and Sigint) will be fought. As the beaten horse says 'Generals plan for the last war'.
    The level of accuracy really surprises me as you stated in your examples.
    Real 'real' time, 4k color, accurate in meters, distinction between day or night fighting is mostly gone.

    You can say what you want about the Yanks but their money on defense/war is not going to waste in training, tactics and tech.

    e: also propaganda, Ukr is really good at it.
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  10. #21170
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    ...

    e: also propaganda, Ukr is really good at it.
    Let's be honest, it's really easy with the kind of performance and standards russian army presents. I wouldn't even call it propaganda on Ukr side. Just showing how things are or not talking at all when things don't go their way.

  11. #21171

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    Anything with drones.



    F41 LYNX launching a loitering ammunition from the launch canister.

  12. #21172
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    ...

    e: also propaganda, Ukr is really good at it.
    Let's be honest, it's really easy with the kind of performance and standards russian army presents. I wouldn't even call it propaganda on Ukr side. Just showing how things are or not talking at all when things don't go their way.
    This + our western media is doing the lion's share of the propagandazing.

  13. #21173

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    If you back off the war propaganda people might start looking at the economy.

  14. #21174

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    ...

    e: also propaganda, Ukr is really good at it.
    Let's be honest, it's really easy with the kind of performance and standards russian army presents. I wouldn't even call it propaganda on Ukr side. Just showing how things are or not talking at all when things don't go their way.
    This + our western media is doing the lion's share of the propagandazing.
    Have a closer look at the sources of the propagandizing the 'west' does. You will find the lions share to be from Ukr sources.
    In general the source is hardly ever mentioned if there are multiple sources (who all point at each other). Most recent example was the sinking of the Moskva. Many articles about that but they were verbatim from a Naval nerd forum. Like literally verbatim, no source mentioned (i linked that page back then). Seen many of those examples the last 77 days.
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  15. #21175

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    ...

    e: also propaganda, Ukr is really good at it.
    Let's be honest, it's really easy with the kind of performance and standards russian army presents. I wouldn't even call it propaganda on Ukr side. Just showing how things are or not talking at all when things don't go their way.
    This + our western media is doing the lion's share of the propagandazing.
    Have a closer look at the sources of the propagandizing the 'west' does. You will find the lions share to be from Ukr sources.
    In general the source is hardly ever mentioned if there are multiple sources (who all point at each other). Most recent example was the sinking of the Moskva. Many articles about that but they were verbatim from a Naval nerd forum. Like literally verbatim, no source mentioned (i linked that page back then). Seen many of those examples the last 77 days.
    Mosvka attack was also confirmed from NATO sources, they have a lot of surveillance over Black Sea from Romanian air base. First was reported hit, next day was confirmed sunk, with only one photo of Mosvka burned from Turkish ship. Ukrainians keep a strong grip of media linked, so I'm sure we see only filtered and authorized information. Only one time they dropped the ball back in March when Russians bombed a mall in Kiev after a blogger filmed militaries equipment stored there.
    https://world-today-news.com/the-she...hed-the-video/
    https://www.businessinsider.com/tikt...-bombed-2022-3

  16. #21176
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    ...

    e: also propaganda, Ukr is really good at it.
    Let's be honest, it's really easy with the kind of performance and standards russian army presents. I wouldn't even call it propaganda on Ukr side. Just showing how things are or not talking at all when things don't go their way.
    Don't kid yourself, theres quite a lot of propaganda on our side too, this is how this works. It's just not as easy to discern from Russian propaganda, because Russians are just so extremely incompetent at everything they do it's easier to stretch the truth for the Ukrainians to make it sound plausible.

  17. #21177
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    ...

    e: also propaganda, Ukr is really good at it.
    Let's be honest, it's really easy with the kind of performance and standards russian army presents. I wouldn't even call it propaganda on Ukr side. Just showing how things are or not talking at all when things don't go their way.
    Don't kid yourself, theres quite a lot of propaganda on our side too, this is how this works. It's just not as easy to discern from Russian propaganda, because Russians are just so extremely incompetent at everything they do it's easier to stretch the truth for the Ukrainians to make it sound plausible.
    I have not seen blatant propaganda from Ukrainian sources, apart for some odd photos of pets and fighters. I've seen plenty from outside of Ukraine sources that are sympathetic to them, trying to paint them as some sort of heroic heroes, eg whole Ghost of Kiev kerfuffle; plenty of recycled footage of russian army being russian from years ago etc.

    Don't fool yourself, there's plenty of russian propaganda going around. Plus let's be honest, Germany and France are not exactly happy with how things are turning out. Thankfully it's not a great pr to be on the side of looters, rapists, genocide and a country that runs multiple 'filtration' camps. But expect a lot of russian sympathizers crawling from underground, once it's old enough in news cycle to be treated as new normal. A lot of very rich suddenly have to deal with influx of cash suddenly drying out.

  18. #21178

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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    ...

    e: also propaganda, Ukr is really good at it.
    Let's be honest, it's really easy with the kind of performance and standards russian army presents. I wouldn't even call it propaganda on Ukr side. Just showing how things are or not talking at all when things don't go their way.
    There's a very distinct and interesting difference between how Putin and Selenskyj present themselves during the war. Selenskyj signals in all his videos, speeches and messages "I'm, one of yours" to the Ukraine people. Like at the start of the war declining the U.S. offer to evacuate him, wearing the olive t-shirt all the time.

    Putin on the other hand plays the statesman to his people while at the same time visually distancing from and literally belittling his visitors. That pictures/videos at that large desk, with him sitting in the front, therefore appearing larger than whoever peasant has to pay him a visit to receive orders.

  19. #21179

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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    ...

    e: also propaganda, Ukr is really good at it.
    Let's be honest, it's really easy with the kind of performance and standards russian army presents. I wouldn't even call it propaganda on Ukr side. Just showing how things are or not talking at all when things don't go their way.
    Don't kid yourself, theres quite a lot of propaganda on our side too, this is how this works. It's just not as easy to discern from Russian propaganda, because Russians are just so extremely incompetent at everything they do it's easier to stretch the truth for the Ukrainians to make it sound plausible.
    I have not seen blatant propaganda from Ukrainian sources, apart for some odd photos of pets and fighters.
    Guiding western journalists through that alley of dead civilians in my book counts as propaganda. Don't mistake propaganda (only) for blatant lies. You can make facts work very well in your way, if "presented" right. And that's the master class of propaganda, because it can't be rebuted later. Lies OTOH sooner or later come to light, making the one publishing them look really bad.

  20. #21180
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    ...

    e: also propaganda, Ukr is really good at it.
    Let's be honest, it's really easy with the kind of performance and standards russian army presents. I wouldn't even call it propaganda on Ukr side. Just showing how things are or not talking at all when things don't go their way.
    Don't kid yourself, theres quite a lot of propaganda on our side too, this is how this works. It's just not as easy to discern from Russian propaganda, because Russians are just so extremely incompetent at everything they do it's easier to stretch the truth for the Ukrainians to make it sound plausible.
    I have not seen blatant propaganda from Ukrainian sources, apart for some odd photos of pets and fighters.
    Guiding western journalists through that alley of dead civilians in my book counts as propaganda. Don't mistake propaganda (only) for blatant lies. You can make facts work very well in your way, if "presented" right. And that's the master class of propaganda, because it can't be rebuted later. Lies OTOH sooner or later come to light, making the one publishing them look really bad.
    If we define propaganda in this way, then Sacul is correct. Ukrainians are great at it and it's really hard to see russian efforts at it as competing or even being in same league.

    I still feel it's a misuse of term and what's happening is better described as documenting, bringing matters to light, publicizing or something along those lines.

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