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Thread: Ukraine: Russian Invasion

  1. #20221
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoirAvlaa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Pretty bold. Pretty wrong, too.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_war#Etymology
    The term "World War I" was coined by Time magazine on page 28b of its June 12, 1939 issue. In the same article, on page 32, the term "World War II" was first used speculatively to describe the upcoming war. The first use for the actual war came in its issue of September 11, 1939.[6] One week earlier, on September 4, the day after France and the United Kingdom declared war on Germany, the Danish newspaper Kristeligt Dagblad used the term on its front page, saying "The Second World War broke out yesterday at 11 a.m."[7]
    6"Grey Friday: TIME Reports on World War II Beginning". TIME. September 11, 1939. < You can read that article in their archive.
    7 "Den anden Verdenskrig udbrød i Gaar Middags Kl. 11", Kristeligt Dagblad, September 4, 1939, Extra edition.
    It doesn't change the fact that the world actually wasn't at war globally when the war broke out in Poland. That you have two publications coining it as such doesn't change that. The only region in Europe that saw any action in terms of territories changing in 1939 was the frontier between Germany and Poland. A million things could have gone differently that would have altered the spiral that eventually led to the war spreading on a global scale, and a million things can still happen that prevents the same thing happening in our time leading this regional conflict going global.

    Prof. Frank Aarebrot had a lecture that was broadcasted some time ago on this very subject, and according to him people (at least here) did not see the war as it broke out in 1939 as a global war but a regional war. Cherry picking google searches doesn't prove me particularly wrong.
    Calling the Times a cherry picked example is a bit daft. It's been the leading magazine in the US at the time.

    If you want to name drop random history professors, I'll drop one too: Prof. Norbert Frei made the argument that the world was very aware of the world wide implications of Germany invading Poland.* After all, both the UK and France were allied with Poland, even if they were reluctant to attack immediately. The US was likely to support the UK, as FDR was quite vocal about his intent to take a more assertive stance in foreign policy. You have had the Spanish Civil War just before, which had seen massive involvement of both the fascist nations and the Soviets, making clear that those will clash sooner rather than later. Italy has had its war in Ethiopia and was making noises about colonies in general. Which put them against the British and French. Italy had occupied Albania in April 1939. Asia was at war already. The number of wars was increasing steadily, the powder kegs were there and just waiting to go off.

    * He did so at a lecture series in WWII I attended during uni.
    There are even a few ww2 scholars who think that the Marco Polo bridge incident and subsequent Japanese invasion of China is actually the beginning, and that Poland/Germany is an outdated, Eurocentric view on when the war started, but, in any case, to Helgurs point, when Germany invaded Poland, considering war was already raging in Asia. It was, in fact, a world war at that point. It just took the Allie’s most of a year to wake up to that.
    Wasn't the slow entry by the allies mainly due to not having a large enough army yet? Can't go to war while you're still gearing up...
    On the British side, sure. The French were quite mobilized, but doctrine wise, stick in a WW1 influenced “come at me bro” footing. Basically, prepared to fight a completely different war to the one that ended up happening.
    meh

  2. #20222

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    Been on the border to Hungary 3 hours now, havent moved an inch. Constant influx of vans and busses, lotsa Caritas vehicles too. My guess it's the mass exodus from Kiev. Was supposed to bring another round back to UA tomorrow but at this rate I'll be lucky if I manage to get back to Croatia before noon.

    Its a shitshow.
    Mariupol is a example on what will happen. The Ukrainians are still incredibly brave but so far the Soviets continue inching forward and destroying civilian buildings and the misery just increases day after day.

  3. #20223
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    Mariupol may (hopefully) be an extreme example - Azov is based in that area. Imho Russians want them specifically very very dead and will destroy the extra mile if needed.

  4. #20224
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    Although if they do but destroy all of Mariupol doing it, this will basically guarantee each and every Ukrainian will fight them forever, and we're probably long past that point anyway a week ago.

  5. #20225

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    Yeah, I see no way of Soviet Union ruling in Ukraine in any kind of peaceful fashion. If they "secure" Ukraine it will just lead to long guerilla operations and misery all around. Short term it will be a humanitarian catastrophe due to the war, longer term there will be issues due to the teetering economy from covid running head first into the wall of sanctions and economic warfare.

  6. #20226
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    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    Yeah, I see no way of Soviet Union ruling in Ukraine in any kind of peaceful fashion. If they "secure" Ukraine it will just lead to long guerilla operations and misery all around. Short term it will be a humanitarian catastrophe due to the war, longer term there will be issues due to the teetering economy from covid running head first into the wall of sanctions and economic warfare.
    They have no realistic chance to reach Lviv. At all. And they know it.

    And I'll eat my shoe if they capture Kiev. That city is impossible to conquer as long there are defenders with the will to defend it. It was built to withstand nukes and chemical attacks. I don't think even average Ukrainians know how deep and far shelters go and how connected they are. Their metro is being one of them conveniently pulling double duty as public transport. It's a second city underground. Once this shit is done go and see for yourself and leave some tourist cashmoney to help them rebuild.
    And buildings? 16 floors high is an average, most are even higher. Drive any armor there and you're fucked. All defenders need to do is move few floors higher and you can't elevate anything you have to hit them while they shoot at you whatever they have with impunity. This also makes it sniper's paradise.

  7. #20227
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    Yeah, I see no way of Soviet Union ruling in Ukraine in any kind of peaceful fashion. If they "secure" Ukraine it will just lead to long guerilla operations and misery all around. Short term it will be a humanitarian catastrophe due to the war, longer term there will be issues due to the teetering economy from covid running head first into the wall of sanctions and economic warfare.
    They have no realistic chance to reach Lviv. At all. And they know it.

    And I'll eat my shoe if they capture Kiev. That city is impossible to conquer as long there are defenders with the will to defend it. It was built to withstand nukes and chemical attacks. I don't think even average Ukrainians know how deep and far shelters go and how connected they are. Their metro is being one of them conveniently pulling double duty as public transport. It's a second city underground. Once this shit is done go and see for yourself and leave some tourist cashmoney to help them rebuild.
    And buildings? 16 floors high is an average, most are even higher. Drive any armor there and you're fucked. All defenders need to do is move few floors higher and you can't elevate anything you have to hit them while they shoot at you whatever they have with impunity. This also makes it sniper's paradise.
    BTW:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kyiv_(2022)

    Wiki article already written, the battle has also already been named.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyiv_Metro#Wartime_use

    Metro entry has also been updated to reflect the current reality.
    nevar forget

  8. #20228
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    I wasn't talking out of my ass
    Seriously, it's the safest place in Ukraine atm. No wonder Zelensky is not moving anywhere.

  9. #20229
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    Still at the border. Literally dozens of busses and cargo trucks are being let through past us who have the comfort of being in heated cars to unload people on the border.

    Caritas people passed the line, checking with drivers where they're going and pairing them up with people without transport from the border.

    I gave them my info but I guess nobody is aiming for Croatia.

  10. #20230
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    My opinion on tanks has never been lower.
    Quote Originally Posted by Totally Not Larkonnis View Post
    at least we're not Greece.

  11. #20231

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    My opinion on tanks has never been lower.
    This is a really shitty war for tanks.

    Granted, I'm not sure there's a good war for tanks anymore except one where your enemy lacks any kind of anti-armor.

    But this particular situation is just about the perfect storm of terrible, and that was before the West started flooding Ukraine with Javs and the like.

    You know you fucked up when your tanks are getting stuck in the mud.
    Quarantined and loving life.

  12. #20232
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    Welcome to Rasputitsa

  13. #20233
    Winged Nazgul's Avatar
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    Looks like they are legitimizing Razor: https://kotaku.com/piracy-russia-ukr...pir-1848637504

  14. #20234
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/stat...442896388?s=21

    Excellent Twitter thread about how Russia's economy is structured, why certain industries like oil and gas are higher in the hierarchy, metallurgy is in the middle, and complex industries like machinery production are far down.

    tl;dr: Extraction industries that are easy to run by a mafia are highly valued, complex industries that require nerds are a threat. "Import substitution" is a scam and the leaders know it, outsourcing complex industries actually removes threats to power.
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  15. #20235
    Movember 2012 Elriche Oshego's Avatar
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    Congrats on finally realizing how North Korea operates.

  16. #20236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Can we change the thread title to "Ukraine: Definitely Non-Consensual Touching" or some variant thereof?
    you really are a bad nonce weirdo

  17. #20237
    rufuske's Avatar
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    His horse fetishes did not give it away already?

  18. #20238
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    Finally returned to Zagreb only to find out an Ukrainian military drone crashed here last night.

    I don't even I'm just gonna go sleep now.

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...hed-in-croatia

    https://www.jutarnji.hr/vijesti/hrva...-onda-15168834
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  19. #20239
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    Yeah, I see no way of Soviet Union ruling in Ukraine in any kind of peaceful fashion. If they "secure" Ukraine it will just lead to long guerilla operations and misery all around. Short term it will be a humanitarian catastrophe due to the war, longer term there will be issues due to the teetering economy from covid running head first into the wall of sanctions and economic warfare.
    They have no realistic chance to reach Lviv. At all. And they know it.

    And I'll eat my shoe if they capture Kiev. That city is impossible to conquer as long there are defenders with the will to defend it. It was built to withstand nukes and chemical attacks. I don't think even average Ukrainians know how deep and far shelters go and how connected they are. Their metro is being one of them conveniently pulling double duty as public transport. It's a second city underground. Once this shit is done go and see for yourself and leave some tourist cashmoney to help them rebuild.
    And buildings? 16 floors high is an average, most are even higher. Drive any armor there and you're fucked. All defenders need to do is move few floors higher and you can't elevate anything you have to hit them while they shoot at you whatever they have with impunity. This also makes it sniper's paradise.
    Half the free worlds top snipers are volunteeering to go fight for Ukraine too

  20. #20240

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    it is not so much the taking of the cities than terrorizing the population with no-stop shelling and making the cities unlivable.

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